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My God! Where do you get these clips?!?!?!? I knew it was the same swing!!!! Steroids my butt! He just copied the best swing of all time! My big question is: Why are others not doing it or teaching it??? I can't recall the hitter, but in Epsteins hitting DVD he has some old clips and there is another hitter that lays the bat all the way down flat pre-swing, but ends up launching from the same spot as these two. Do you know who I'm talking about? Do you have clips of him??? Do you have a personal website?quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
You mean like this?
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Mic-
Chameleon/Richard can explain this better than anyone, for starters, revisit the "hips" thread. This also has to do with a point you made in the same thread when you highlighted PGStaff's point.
Richard's description clarifying some major distinctions for "noreast" between the PCR theory and the actual mlb swing pattern using another Bonds clip -
----------------
Chameleon:
"It sounds like I agree with you noreast.
My point is PCR as a hitting theory is greatly flawed.
Of course connection is needed. Of course you rotate. Of course you use an athletic posture.
Duh.
But...
When they say "tilt and turn"....with tilt over the plate with your *** out, being their explanation of posture...you will fail. No question. You can not generate the needed quickness from that position.
They also say "maintain the tilt around the corner". More nonsense. ALL good hitters come out of their athletic posture to swing. You have to.
They also say "create more tension in the rear shoulder as you internally rotate the rear arm with elbow up". This is their explanation of connection. The tension part. Ridiculous. All they do is tie hitters in knots and keep them from being athletic. You can not execute a high level swing with tension.
They also say "swing in the rotational path of the shoulders". Complete nonsense. You will now and then....but to make that the goal is impossible and hit at a high level. The fact is, the shoulders do not rotate. They laterally tilt at "go" and the hips rotate. Since the shoulders/torso are attached to the hips they will appear to rotate. They do not.
They also say "don't flare the lead knee...keep the hips closed until 'go'". More ridiculous nonsense.
Watch this clip and see if you can recognize PCR. I can't. I missed the "yep" frame by one....but look at the line of the hips at "go". It would point to an area between the first base coach and the first base dugout. Do you call that closed?
I can go on. Point is PCR as a hitting technique will keep hitters from reaching their potential. And now, (having seen the light without admitting they've seen the light) they say PCR is just a blue print or a building code...meaning that it is a set of guard rails to stay within.
Let me translate what that means. It means they don't know what they are talking about...they realize that...and are in the process of revising but they can't/won't admit it.
NO mlb video will support PCR."
----------------------------
Mic, the point you made referring to PGStaff can be thought of as indicating that an important part of analyzing and executing the swing is HOW ADJUSTMENTS ARE MADE -
----------------------------
MIC:
WOW! Someone who finally sees what I see! You can't look at a few frames of video to see when a player does what in his swing! You have to see "cause" and "effect" and "results"! The "PITCH" determines many aspects of a players swing. If you want to use video to determine mechanics flaws, first use it during tee work, then machine work, where there is some consistency in ball position related to the swing. PG is the only one that has made sense in this thread. It is obvious sandman and bluedog have knowledge,(as do many college Professors but can't get it out of their heads so someone else can "get it"! Both of you may be able to do it in person, but in writing it's real cloudy! I do like sandmans request for videos of your students before and after, because that's all that matters.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
BD,
Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Could we see some examples?
There can be many reasons why one hitter would open his hips earlier than another. Or even why the same hitter would open his hips earlier on one pitch than another.
Some of those reasons would include...
Being fooled by the pitch
The location of the pitch
Having slower hips
The type of hitter each is
The type of stride
Rotating into footplant doesn't really drive me crazy. I just prefer not rotating into footplant. What do the no stride guys do?
----------------------
Mic, regarding how to put this together, I would say, following Epstein's info (based significantly on years of discussions with Williams), that ultimately, the successful mlb swing is about the adjustment you can make. Understanding how this mechanically happens is extremely important.
As Richard/Chameleon said, the mlb swing is NOT "PCR"/"tilt and turn".
You need the running start or "rubberband winding" (Epstein) or "rotating into toe touch". It's not just a "nice to have". All of the successful mlb hitters do it, even "no-striders". It's permits quick "stretch and fire" with more read time and better contact via better adjustment.
Furthermore, mlb loading as well as the means of adjustment is controlled by the hands determing where/how they are loaded so that they torque the handle of the bat as you rotate into toe touch.
"Turn then tilt" (turn = turn hips and bat to load/coil via synched running start, then tilt = tilt shoulders when hips fire)" is much more like it than "tilt and turn".
That is what is necessary for successful mechanical adjustment in the mlb swing. It enables early batspeed (quick swing acceleration well back behind the hitter) for longer reading of the pitch and then optmal adjustment of contact zone for well timed and solid contact (Williams/Epstein adjust/match swing to location)
Based on this mechanical pattern (belly-up, start on time, hips lead hands, hands stay in, adjust swing plane/timing on fly) Epstein summarizes one successful mlb adjustment strategy as look in OR out, adjust up/down on fly with less than 2 outs.
"Bellying-up" (and "making history on the inside") more can enhance this approach. It depends on handling the inside/very inside and up pitch like Ortiz does in the "hitting inside pitch" thread. Full understanding here requires more than just the "pin ball" model of how in vs out adjustment is made. Understanding mechanically HOW to adjust in the belly-up style can also permit effective use of the "fence" drill (which is why Epstein has success with this as his "enforcer" drill).
"Furthermore, mlb loading as well as the means of adjustment is controlled by the hands determing where/how they are loaded so that they torque the handle of the bat as you rotate into toe touch." Tom, are you talking about the forward coc-k of the bat in front of the head in the case of Bonds and Williams? A lot of the Major League hitters I've seen c-ock the bat head forward before go. I've always thought they did that to lag the bat head longer so they could actually start the knob to the ball sooner. Am I wrong? I also think that the action loosens tension in the hands. This may sound strange, but I've always felt the golf swing, the pitching motion and hitting mechanics are closely related. The idea of "holding the V longer" and "keeping tension out of the arms and hands" are a big part of the golf swing. Do you see these as similar?quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Mic-
Chameleon/Richard can explain this better than anyone, for starters, revisit the "hips" thread. This also has to do with a point you made in the same thread when you highlighted PGStaff's point.
Richard's description clarifying some major distinctions for "noreast" between the PCR theory and the actual mlb swing pattern using another Bonds clip -
----------------
Chameleon:
"It sounds like I agree with you noreast.
My point is PCR as a hitting theory is greatly flawed.
Of course connection is needed. Of course you rotate. Of course you use an athletic posture.
Duh.
But...
When they say "tilt and turn"....with tilt over the plate with your *** out, being their explanation of posture...you will fail. No question. You can not generate the needed quickness from that position.
They also say "maintain the tilt around the corner". More nonsense. ALL good hitters come out of their athletic posture to swing. You have to.
They also say "create more tension in the rear shoulder as you internally rotate the rear arm with elbow up". This is their explanation of connection. The tension part. Ridiculous. All they do is tie hitters in knots and keep them from being athletic. You can not execute a high level swing with tension.
They also say "swing in the rotational path of the shoulders". Complete nonsense. You will now and then....but to make that the goal is impossible and hit at a high level. The fact is, the shoulders do not rotate. They laterally tilt at "go" and the hips rotate. Since the shoulders/torso are attached to the hips they will appear to rotate. They do not.
They also say "don't flare the lead knee...keep the hips closed until 'go'". More ridiculous nonsense.
Watch this clip and see if you can recognize PCR. I can't. I missed the "yep" frame by one....but look at the line of the hips at "go". It would point to an area between the first base coach and the first base dugout. Do you call that closed?
I can go on. Point is PCR as a hitting technique will keep hitters from reaching their potential. And now, (having seen the light without admitting they've seen the light) they say PCR is just a blue print or a building code...meaning that it is a set of guard rails to stay within.
Let me translate what that means. It means they don't know what they are talking about...they realize that...and are in the process of revising but they can't/won't admit it.
NO mlb video will support PCR."
----------------------------
Mic, the point you made referring to PGStaff can be thought of as indicating that an important part of analyzing and executing the swing is HOW ADJUSTMENTS ARE MADE -
----------------------------
MIC:
WOW! Someone who finally sees what I see! You can't look at a few frames of video to see when a player does what in his swing! You have to see "cause" and "effect" and "results"! The "PITCH" determines many aspects of a players swing. If you want to use video to determine mechanics flaws, first use it during tee work, then machine work, where there is some consistency in ball position related to the swing. PG is the only one that has made sense in this thread. It is obvious sandman and bluedog have knowledge,(as do many college Professors but can't get it out of their heads so someone else can "get it"! Both of you may be able to do it in person, but in writing it's real cloudy! I do like sandmans request for videos of your students before and after, because that's all that matters.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
BD,
Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Could we see some examples?
There can be many reasons why one hitter would open his hips earlier than another. Or even why the same hitter would open his hips earlier on one pitch than another.
Some of those reasons would include...
Being fooled by the pitch
The location of the pitch
Having slower hips
The type of hitter each is
The type of stride
Rotating into footplant doesn't really drive me crazy. I just prefer not rotating into footplant. What do the no stride guys do?
----------------------
Mic, regarding how to put this together, I would say, following Epstein's info (based significantly on years of discussions with Williams), that ultimately, the successful mlb swing is about the adjustment you can make. Understanding how this mechanically happens is extremely important.
As Richard/Chameleon said, the mlb swing is NOT "PCR"/"tilt and turn".
You need the running start or "rubberband winding" (Epstein) or "rotating into toe touch". It's not just a "nice to have". All of the successful mlb hitters do it, even "no-striders". It's permits quick "stretch and fire" with more read time and better contact via better adjustment.
Furthermore, mlb loading as well as the means of adjustment is controlled by the hands determing where/how they are loaded so that they torque the handle of the bat as you rotate into toe touch.
"Turn then tilt" (turn = turn hips and bat to load/coil via synched running start, then tilt = tilt shoulders when hips fire)" is much more like it than "tilt and turn".
That is what is necessary for successful mechanical adjustment in the mlb swing. It enables early batspeed (quick swing acceleration well back behind the hitter) for longer reading of the pitch and then optmal adjustment of contact zone for well timed and solid contact (Williams/Epstein adjust/match swing to location)
Based on this mechanical pattern (belly-up, start on time, hips lead hands, hands stay in, adjust swing plane/timing on fly) Epstein summarizes one successful mlb adjustment strategy as look in OR out, adjust up/down on fly with less than 2 outs.
"Bellying-up" (and "making history on the inside") more can enhance this approach. It depends on handling the inside/very inside and up pitch like Ortiz does in the "hitting inside pitch" thread. Full understanding here requires more than just the "pin ball" model of how in vs out adjustment is made. Understanding mechanically HOW to adjust in the belly-up style can also permit effective use of the "fence" drill (which is why Epstein has success with this as his "enforcer" drill).
You do realize Ted Williams is dead...right??? Just kidding!quote:Originally posted by batterupind.com:
Ted Williams and Barry Bonds both keep their hands inside the ball, drive thru the zone and they both are patient at the plate to way for their pitch.
quote:The fact is, the shoulders do not rotate. They laterally tilt at "go" and the hips rotate. Since the shoulders/torso are attached to the hips they will appear to rotate. They do not.
