Hard throwing pitcher w/control issues

There are 300 D1 schools - tough to say who is willing to do what.  It's certainly not impossible, but as you might guess, they will prefer guys with some measure of command.  Scholarship dollars are a precious commodity, usually only spent on kids that the coach thinks can help him win.  There might be a chance to walk on somewhere, but I think the question you have to ask yourself is what is the goal?  I wouldn't recommend you set the boy up to fail - if he can't command it to some degree, he can't really pitch in D1 - or D3 for that matter.  Outfielders with strong arms, speed, and who can swing it are pretty valuable too.  Don't get so focused on "D1".  Strive to find the right fit at the right school, both athletically and academically.  Does he throw right or left?

96 with questionable command = likely D1 offer

91 with questionable command = attend our camp so we can make you pay for us to see you

89 with questionable command = "Who are you again?"

ironhorse posted:

96 with questionable command = likely D1 offer

91 with questionable command = attend our camp so we can make you pay for us to see you

89 with questionable command = "Who are you again?"

Depends on projectability, (cough, cough how tall is he?  LHP, RHP?)

Good point! A LHP throwing 96 is going 1st round with or without control issues!

ironhorse posted:

96 with questionable command = likely D1 offer

91 with questionable command = attend our camp so we can make you pay for us to see you

89 with questionable command = "Who are you again?"

I would drop those numbers down some but definitely found this funny. 

Is working on control over the next year or so completely out of the question?

Thanks and neither of us are set on D1. I just threw that out there so we could work our way down from there....although I know some JUCO and even DII programs have similar high standards in terms of the players they recruit. He is a 6'2 RHP that just turned 16 2 months ago. He will definitely get more opportunities this summer and the good news is that he is getting better but still not someone you are going to put on the bump in an important game. He is going to attend his first showcase (Top96) this summer so will obviously learn more as he is seen by coaches from all levels. Again, thanks for feedback so far.

Swampboy posted:

Is working on control over the next year or so completely out of the question?

That's my question as well. I always thought Velocity is the hard-to-get part. Once you have velocity, it's easy to find an instructor to get control.

That said, we did see a case like this last week during my son's high school game. At the 6th inning, we tied at 1-1, and the opposing team switched pitcher. The new pitcher was a tall kid and throws FAST! At least 85 fast balls. Everyone on our side was saying "why didn't this pitcher start? now we are doomed." However, when the inning starts, we immediately see why he's not starting. Most of his pitches were wild, either on the ground way in front of the plate, or way over the catcher's head. We were able to walk and run and scored 2 on wild pitches and passed balls. The kid was switched out after 1/3 of an inning. I was thinking then, "why can't he take a few lessons and get some control on that fast ball?"

Typed a reply to you swampboy but I screwed something up because it did not post.

Try again. No...not out of the question. He will definitely get more opportunities this summer in our non-tournament games against local competition. He is seeing some improvement and his most recent outing was his best ever. I guess, I am just looking at worst case scenario. I would have him see a pitching instructor but I have become such a big fan of Lantz Wheeler's minimalist approach to pitching instruction that I am afraid to go with anyone local. I think the reason he has had so many problems with control is all the different coaching he has received up until this point. I am hoping to get him to a place up north in the next couple of weeks to try out the core velocity belt. If we like it, then going to purchase and start implementing to see if it helps. He already throws hard but does not do a very good job of using his lower-half....which according to Lantz can have an impact on control. Keeping my fingers crossed for him because he definitely wants to pitch.

@bogeyorpar

No offense but if it was that easy, we would have fixed him already. I have coached at the HS lower levels for a couple of years and had a chance to see pitchers who were working with instructors still struggle (including 1 or 2 varsity pitchers). Again, this is why we are going with Wheeler's philosophy and simplifying things. Throw the ball hard and get him some help with use of lower body and see what happens.

Look up Rick Ankiel.  Sometimes you just can't fix everything.  Then again, sometimes you can fix things.

From a distance, with the limited info we have, he needs to find an instructor who is good at working with the existing style a pitcher has while also being capable of recognizing and providing mechanics corrections so that he can continue to throw freely but dial in location.  Most of the guys I know of who go to instructors and still struggle do so because they are doing overhauls on mechanics or instructor is trying to make them fit into a box that isn't a fit. 

If he doesn't address control, he will likely never see a high level college mound.   They don't get to keep P's very long and there are far too many high velo arms available that have enough command to garner the bulk of the recruiting interest. 

My 2018 has learned more about his body as it relates to command. It is very important that a pitcher have the mobility to properly fire the hips and the functional strength to perform the task . When his hip immobility limited the range of motion, he had a tendency to get rotational  in the upper half to compensate for the lack of lower half drive. Causing misses high and right.

At that time he was touching the upper 80's, sitting mid, functionally all upper half.

4 months later after training for the hip immobility and sport specific strength training, he's spotting very well and I was told he was clocked at a high school game by a Mets scout at 87-89 a few weeks ago.

Find an adequate pitching coach to help with command.

It is not unusual for any pitcher who throws hard to have command issues.  

Backpick25 posted:

My 2018 has learned more about his body as it relates to command. It is very important that a pitcher have the mobility to properly fire the hips and the functional strength to perform the task . When his hip immobility limited the range of motion, he had a tendency to get rotational  in the upper half to compensate for the lack of lower half drive. Causing misses high and right.

At that time he was touching the upper 80's, sitting mid, functionally all upper half.

4 months later after training for the hip immobility and sport specific strength training, he's spotting very well and I was told he was clocked at a high school game by a Mets scout at 87-89 a few weeks ago.

 

 

Thanks for posting this....it is exactly what we are attempting to do with my son (early stages of it). To hear the results from your 2018 will add some motivation.

Control issues can be cause by lots of things: poor mechanics, inability to repeat, growth spurt and the rewiring needed to cope with the new body, mental issues.  So no one can give you any proper diagnosis without seeing your son.

How are his grades? A school like UCLA may not take a flyer on a wild hard thrower, but an Ivy might.

There is plenty of time to develop control (and from there command) for a 2018.

There is no one size fits all approach; but unless you are qualified to take him to the next level, try to find a local PC who your S loves.  It's a long, slow, incremental process to develop top tier velo with similar control (and then command) - those guys are ultimately called professional pitchers.

FWIW, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic with my earlier question. I was trying a little bit to be funny but I wasn't being sarcastic.

It sounds like we're discussing a position player who is starting to think his live arm might be his best ticket to the next level but who has not had much pitcher-specific training or much game experience as a pitcher.

My son had a college teammate who was in this category. Pro body LHP with low mileage on his arm who could make the ball leap from his hand. You could hear the difference. Truly dynamic arm.

Drafted out of high school despite having pitched very few innings and having minimal exposure. An arm like this can't stay hidden. Chose college over going pro.

To say this pitcher had a lack of control would be to offer unwarranted praise. As fast as lightning and just as repeatable.

One time, throwing in the bullpen down the rf foul line, he hit the foul pole about a third of the way up.

It was a significant improvement over his previous pitch, which had cleared the wall in fair territory.

After watching him fire rockets with the shot pattern of a blunderbuss one day, my son asked what his aim point was. "The catcher." 

You'd think he would have had trouble finding bullpen catchers to throw to, but that wasn't the case. The catchers knew crouching behind the strike zone was one of the safest places in the stadium when he threw.

He was cut after a year. Then he had a good enough JUCO year to catch on with another D1. Didn't pitch many innings there but still landed an undrafted free agent deal. Is  toiling in low-A MiLB now. Still waiting for effectiveness to catch up to his velocity. 

I tell this story to make the point that, sure, someone will take a chance on raw, unharnessed power if he's throwing hard enough.

But it's more important to find out if this particular player has the capacity and desire to learn how to become an effective pitcher. 

Getting to a particular level, whether it's D1 or somewhere else, is the easy part. Being prepared to compete at whatever level he finds himself is more important. 

Best wishes. 

I appreciate all of the feedback!!! Especially the story about your son's college roommate!  Will definitely make my son feel better about where he is at right now. If it does not work out for him...I won't lose any sleep. I just want to make sure he is educated and realistic about his future. See way too many kids and parents who have unrealistic expectations about their son's athletic future. Thanks again!!! These message boards are an invaluable resource!!!

Here's another data point backing up basically what Swampboy said.

A couple years ago one of the forum regulars posted a link to a story about a kid from our area.

Quick recap:  Very tall RHP, undrafted after unspectacular D2 career.  Couple years later, he's driving a truck and doing art on the side, and gets asked to join a summer league team.  He starts lighting up radar guns to the tune of 100mph, scouts hear about it, and an MLB club signs him as a free agent with a $250,000 bonus.  He gets a lot of feel-good play in the news.  This past winter he was released. The club said they just don't think he'll ever learn to throw strikes.  He's now pitching in an indy league and presumably hoping to find his way back.

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

96 with questionable command = likely D1 offer

91 with questionable command = attend our camp so we can make you pay for us to see you

89 with questionable command = "Who are you again?"

I would drop those numbers down some but definitely found this funny. 

Me too, son is at ACC Power 5 and only a "few" guys get up to 94-95. There are exceptions, but not all D1 guys are bringing it @ 96. 

Do you know the history of Sandy Koufax?

study and learn.

Bob

Just looked up the player I mentioned earlier. Released.

Is there a mechanics consistency issue that can be fixed by quality pitching instruction.

Consultant posted:

Do you know the history of Sandy Koufax?

study and learn.

Bob

This was my thougjt exactly when reading swampboys post. 

Consultant posted:

Do you know the history of Sandy Koufax?

study and learn.

Bob

Just finished reading a summary of his MLB pitching experience. Like so many others....a rollercoaster ride. Great story though and one that I will share with my son. Am thinking I might pick up a copy of a Sandy Koufax book for my son and I. Thanks!

RJM posted:

Is there a mechanics consistency issue that can be fixed by quality pitching instruction.

That was his problem until his most recent outing. He would struggle to throw strikes and then try to take something off of his pitches which also changed his mechanics. It obviously also involved the mental side of the game. The last time he came out, he just stuck with throwing the ball hard. He still had 5 BB in 4 innings but only gave up 1 hit and 0 runs. We played a below average team but it was the fact that he did not look any different from fist pitch to last pitch that had both of us very happy with his performance. I am definitely looking for the right instructor but again, not looking for someone who is going to over coach him.

When I first took my son for pitching lessons, I thought I was getting ripped off.  Talk about nuance!  The changes recommended were very subtle.  While there were some mechanics that were tweaked, this particular coach really focused more on having my son better appreciate the best delivery of a pitch - and repeat that best delivery.  Second takeaway was how subtle changes in the overall delivery (slot, grip, pressure - little things) influence a pitch.  If you ask your son after his first lesson how it went and what he was taught, hopefully he will answer that he likes the coach's approach and that he didn't really change too much.

When the SF Giants 1962 with Willie Mays played the Dodgers with Koufax, Perranoski [my teammate at MSU], Koufax was "tipping" his pitches and the Giants still could not hit him.

Sandy signed as a "bonus baby" from U of Cincinnati [a basketball player]. He had to sit on the bench for 2 years [the rule]. Al Ronning, a reserve Brooklyn Dodgers catcher was assigned to catch Sandy in the bullpen for two years to work on his control.

In 1987, Al and Northern California scouts help me create the Area Code games.

"the rest is history"

Bob

I've told this story on here a few times so I'll try not to go on and on with the details but it's regarding velocity and control.  My 2016 attended one PG showcase and I watched most of the first day when all the players ran their 60s and did infield and outfield on the gun.  Of all the players only one went twice from both the infield and the outfield.  From SS he never came close to hitting the first baseman's glove - never once got within 10 feet of the first baseman.  From the outfield he hit the very top of the netting around the infield multiple times.  So wildly off target that I honestly thought it was a joke (esp when he went a second time).  I am not exaggerating and another member here was at the same showcase and commented last time I told this story about how he saw the same thing.  The next day during the games he pitched.  I did not see him pitch but he was playing on the same team as a player my son works out with so I asked the dad how he did and he commented that it was a disaster - that he had hit one batter multiple times (you don't take your base at these showcases, you can keep batting) and had zero control.  

Both days the scouts blog from the event led off with comments about this player - about how impressive he was.  There was no mention of control issues.  Only his velo.  The last time I wrote this I looked him up and had his velo but I couldn't find it today.  When I looked previously he was a D1 commit.  Get your son up to 91 from the OF and 88-89 from the mound and he'll find a spot somewhere. 

coachld posted:

RJM posted:

Is there a mechanics consistency issue that can be fixed by quality pitching instruction.

That was his problem until his most recent outing. He would struggle to throw strikes and then try to take something off of his pitches which also changed his mechanics. It obviously also involved the mental side of the game. The last time he came out, he just stuck with throwing the ball hard. He still had 5 BB in 4 innings but only gave up 1 hit and 0 runs. We played a below average team but it was the fact that he did not look any different from fist pitch to last pitch that had both of us very happy with his performance. I am definitely looking for the right instructor but again, not looking for someone who is going to over coach him.

This can't hurt. He's the mental guru of baseball.

http://www.amazon.com/Mental-A...cement/dp/1888698292

Sandy, a classic Vince.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJdli-ONL-8

Bob

RJM posted:

coachld posted:

RJM posted:

Is there a mechanics consistency issue that can be fixed by quality pitching instruction.

That was his problem until his most recent outing. He would struggle to throw strikes and then try to take something off of his pitches which also changed his mechanics. It obviously also involved the mental side of the game. The last time he came out, he just stuck with throwing the ball hard. He still had 5 BB in 4 innings but only gave up 1 hit and 0 runs. We played a below average team but it was the fact that he did not look any different from fist pitch to last pitch that had both of us very happy with his performance. I am definitely looking for the right instructor but again, not looking for someone who is going to over coach him.

This can't hurt. He's the mental guru of baseball.

http://www.amazon.com/Mental-A...cement/dp/1888698292

Just picked up for my kindle. Thanks!!!!!!!!