Harvard vs D3 options

Practices during the off season run, at a minimum 15 - 20 hours per week. Those on the team with pro aspirations (a small percentage), work harder.

 

Beginning roughly the end of January, season practices begin (note: official practices begin several weeks after the official start date of other D1 schools) and the time commitment sky rockets to 30 hours or more (I calculate hours in a different manner from the way the NCAA calculates).

 

The season begins two weeks later then other D1 schools and the team plays a max of 44 games (other teams play over 50); roughly 9 of those games are played during spring break, 20 games are league games played as two weekend double headers (half home, half away; Boston is pretty much in the middle of the league so the biggest drive would be down to Penn), about six games are played during the week of league play (all local, e.g., Bean Pot tourney), the remainder (three weekends) are before league play and probably involve long flights or bus rides.

 

The time spent on baseball during the season exceeds 60 hours and the weekend DHs, intended to lighten the impact of baseball on academics, IMO does the opposite. Basically Saturday and Sunday until late in the evening are lost to baseball.

 

In short, the time commitment at an Ivy - even if considered light by D1 standards - dwarfs most academic D3s.

 

BUT, don't let that even be a factor in the calculus you're using to choose a college. Athletes at Harvard fit very well into the entire student body. Athletes graduating from Harvard (and every other student) have a plethora of opportunities.  Athletes at Harvard not only have the Harvard "network" to call upon, they have the Harvard Athlete network to call upon. (The Harvard network is very very real.)

 

If a player has the baseball skills and the academic chops to be recruited, he is in an elite category. IMO, if a player is one of those few (eight at Harvard, roughly 65 for the entire league each year), there is no choice - Harvard beckons.

 

Replace Harvard with any of the other seven Ivy schools and you'd get my same response. Only Stanford looms higher for the combo of baseball, academics, and future opportunities. (Note, I do not maintain that the education and teaching you get at these schools is better; simply the opportunities, for one reason or another, are better.)

 

if you are a true middle class family, the financial aid at Harvard (and Princeton and Yale) is really really good.

 

As a final aside, the LACs with the engineering option: are those 3/2 programs?

 

 

First off, I agree with everything Goosegg posted.  Great post and very informative.  

 

All things being equal if your son is considering tech or engineering that is going to be the overriding factor IMHO not D1 Ivy or D3.   From a baseball perspective there are slight differences between the two but in the grand scheme of things it is college baseball.  Most Ivys are going to have greater depth than most academic D3s, bigger budgets, better facilities overall.  It is a fact of life.  But when you look at specific majors that is where things can change.  Your concern was exactly my concern 5-6 years ago when we were going through the same exercise.  In short, it is a great question and frankly it is something you and your son need to understand before stepping on campus.  In other words, playing college baseball anywhere and majoring in tech or engineering is something that you should not take lightly.  We had many discussions at the dinner table on this very topic.  Good luck!

BL - you've gotten excellent replies from two of the most knowlegeable Ivy/high academic posters on the Board.  Both have direct, relevant experience and are generous and willing to share and help.  Mine starts in the Ivy League this fall.  The only thing I would add is if there is interest from Harvard, I wouldn't limit myself to just Harvard.  Chances are pretty good that the other Ivy schools might be interested in your son too.  I would recommend exploring all those options.  As an example, Cornell hired a new coach a couple of weeks ago.  He was the former pitching coach at Clemson.  I have no idea what his recruiting status is for this year, but I would guess there's a pretty good chance he's looking.  I'm sure the other schools are as well as their timetable tends to be a little behind the major D1 conferences.

Thanks so much for the replies.

We spent last 2 days at headfirst, a Harvard happened to coach
my son in one of the simulated games. Liked what he saw and told him to
send grades if interested.    Son did pursue others that watched him,
Dartmouth told him same.    Columbia, Princeton were there but no time for interaction.
Spent time speaking to D3 coaches.

Son had contacted D3 LAC with their own engineering
programs, not 3-2 and major D3 techs.   Looking at rosters,
one of the least known and slightly lower academic schools had
the most STEM majors on the team (Union College).   Frankly of 30+ kids
on the Harvard roster, exactly 3 STEM majors.   Both LAC but Harvard is highly
concentrated in Gov/Econ majors, like many D1 teams.  I feel Union team
would be a better fit culturally and commitment.

That said, some of the tech schools Caltech,
ROI expressed interest too.  Hard to beat for
his academic interests, depth of tech curriculum
and coach's prior experience having such students
on the team.  

Hopefully he'll have such choices, it's
only August :-).   Needs to retake tests
to be competitive at some of these schools.
For some he is already there, others close.

My main concern is having the programs
that fit him academically and time to take
advantage of them.  Hard work on team is fine,
not a partier, he can live without a frat etc.

Is this statement really true?   I guess it depends on what  exactly  you mean by 'dwarfs'/    According to NCAA surveys,  D3 baseball players spend on average about 35 hrs per week on baseball related activities in seasons, while D1 players spend, on average,  about 41 hours per week.  Lower perhaps, but "dwarfs" seems like an overstatement even when comparing average D1 to average D3.  So if the Ivy's hours are "Light" by D1 standards, I doubt they could be said to "dwarf" the D3 hours.

 

 D3 plays up to 40 games,  Post season play can bring it over  50, I think.   Hard to see how the commitment at a D1 that plays 44 game could be said to "dwarf"  the commitment a D3 with a full schedule of 40 games, especially if that school regularly plays in the post season.

 

(I know D1'a have a deeper post season -- but much of that takes place after school is out -- especially for schools on the semester system rather than the quarter system -- right? ) 

 

Or is the thought that at high academic D3's the time commitment is probably lower than average for even a D3?  

If your son has the ability to play at Harvard or any other IVY D1, I really doubt he'd be happy playing at Cal Tech, even if he would otherwise thrive at the school.  They are non-competitive in the extreme.   They play in a tough D3 league, but they almost never win a game.    That would get kind of depressing for a skilled and talented player. 

BL- You didn't mention son's graduation year (guessing 2017, but could be 2016). Son also took the high academic route in looking for a path to play baseball. Most Ivies that we were in contact had "off day" on Monday, and the games during the week are against local schools (short bus rides). The Ivy league competition is during the weekends. Liked how the Ivies stressed their willingness to work with students (academic) schedules. In talking to coaches, students would miss very few classes due to games. Process in landing one of the 7-8 spots per school is very competitive and school's "recruiting boards" fluctuate frequently. If you can land a degree from one of them I say go for it (you'll hear how it's a 40 year decision, not a 4 year one). If a school doesn't offer a "specialized" major, there is always grad school. We also noticed that D3 recruiting timetables for offers and Patriot League were a little later (fall senior year) than Ivies. One key to success is take standardized tests (ACT/SAT) early along with subject matter tests, Keep schools updated on academic successes along with athletic accolades. HS Teammate of son's is at D3 Pomoma..loves it. Good luck!

Slugger, note that I specially noted that the way I calculate and the way NCAA calculates differs. My calculations are based upon the time a player leaves his room to head to practice (game, etc.) until he is physically ready to head to class (or other activity). All NCAA stats are designed to perpetuate the myth that academics come first.

For an ivy player in season, from 8:00a.m. until 7:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday are baseball, Monday is a day off, weekday game day away bus leaves at 2 and returns after 10. Practices consume three other days - add six hours each day for conditioning -probably morning - and practice - probably late afternoon. That's 48 hours. When the team travels for weekend games add in the travel time and time spent doing non academic hanging about (in other words time which pragmatically cannot be used well to further academics). That's how I came up with a computation. That method is much more accurate when trying to figure out how much time is really left for academics then an NCAA calculation. One is very real; the other is pure fiction.

I didn't say every D3; I limited my comparisons to similar academic schools. And D1 schools which take baseball seriously (meaning they aspire to make the CWS) work far longer hours in way more months, play more games, and travel more.

So, yes I stand by my observations; essentially the higher one goes on the food chain of baseball skills, the more hours are spent playing/practicing/conditioning then at schools lower on the chain. Its not a value judgment; but be aware of what it means.

On S's college team the plurality were econ majors. Very very few engineers. My D s a Chem Eng major and competes against Ivy schools in her sport (its an NCAA sort at several Ivy's it not hers); she studies well over 50 hours per week (I make no assumptions as to its productivity) - S could not have done that. But Fenways son did it and on S's team there was one other engineer.

S matriculated thinking Chem Eng. That lasted until the week school began. Not only was it going to be difficult time wise, he decided he really didn't think he'd like it. My point is, a major which might have been anticipated before arriving at the college may not be the area where a kid finds enjoyment.

As for Cal Tech - or any high D3 - locking a spot up as a baseball player is an interesting crap shoot. While athletes may be given some advantage in the admission process (not at MIT orCal Tech) the D3 process is very opaque and frought with uncertanty. There is minimal uncertainty in admissions for a recruited athlete at an Ivy (get the Likely Letter and you're in).

A recent thread on time commitments at various levels:

 

http://community.hsbaseballweb...-d3-time-committment

Of course, there  is a college world series at every level of NCAA baseball.   Some very high academic D3 do indeed  aspire to make the D3 version of the college  world series.   Some clearly  don't.  (Cal Tech doesn't even aspire to make SCIAC league playoffs it seems.)    Just don't think it's right to say that the time commitment at an Ivy necessarily "dwarfs" the time commitment at a high academic D3.  Much too strong a blanket statement without getting into specific schools and programs, I would think. I'm sure that the commitment at any D1 exceeds the commitment at all or most D3's but "dwarfs" is a  very strong word. 

Our son played at a high academic D3, which was also a nationally ranked program and has coached at a high academic D1 in California.  His view was, especially in season, the D1 was more time consuming, but certainly not in a way which would dwarf his D3 experience and probably not in the way we might expect.

At his D3, there were some bus rides of 10 hours one way.  For a Saturday doubleheader and Sunday single game, the bus would leave Friday Morning and get back late Sunday night into Monday morning.

Where the D1 was more challenging is they would generally leave earlier on Thursday by bus or air.  They would practice later on Thursday at the destination and play single games Friday through Sunday.  While the D3 and D1 would arrive back on campus at about the same time for an away series, the D1 involves one more full day of travel.

Certainly a major difference between a high academic Southern D3 and an Ivy is the Southern school will start formal practice about 3 weeks before their first game, which is usually the first week in February.  The Ivy's usually don't start the first game until the first week in March.  A Southern and West region D3 season will last longer but the in week won't vary all that much from the Ivy other than usually playing 3 games on a weekend series rather than 4. On the other hand, in Tx, for instance, the travel can be far greater distances than the Ivy league games so I expect the travel time might balance some of the weekend DH's for the Ivy.

This may sound odd on a baseball website but if your son can get accepted into Harvard or Caltech - who cares about the baseball part....it will work out as best as it can and if not he is off to a great start in his life....seriously. ( I might not say this about a lot of schools, but those two ) 

 

My son was also recruited by a number of the Ivy's, received a likely letter from one and was actively recruited by Harvard, but they saw him late and after they had used up their "chips" so they were trying to get him in with the general population, and he was a few points short. We were on the West Coast and he decided to not attend the one Ivy school that was going to work out and ended up playing where Infielddad's son played. He had a nice baseball career and did fine in school, got his engineering degree and is now in graduate school. It can be done and it is possible to do well in both, but it takes real discipline. For ref my son had a friend playing in the Patriot league and he thought their schedules were similar.  

 

A couple of other things to consider on your journey. Your son may be accepted by the school, but if he is a STEM major he also needs to be accepted by the "school" of his desired major. This came up in one of my son's options and we/he had to write some letters to make sure he could be admitted to the STEM program if he went there. 

 

The D3's in the NEast tend to have a compressed schedule due to weather and so they end up playing 5 games a week, which I am sure is a real challenge for a STEM major. 

 

Good luck to you and your son, you have landed at the right spot for helpful information. 

I have enjoyed this thread as my son has committed to a D3, and I'm hoping that will be enough baseball for him.  From most of the responses, it sounds like it will.

 

In reference to BOF's first paragraph above, I think the distinction should be made between "Elite Academic" and "High Academic."  Quite a few schools can be considered high, while elite is in a different category.  The Ivies, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Duke...those are in a different class with less than 10% acceptance rates.  

 

Each kid is different, but for my son, his aspirations are in the elite academic category, and he knows that baseball will be the "hook" that separates him from the other applicants who also have great grades and test scores.  

 

Wow this is so much to consider.
To answer Ripkin Fan, my S is 2016 so we need to get up to speed quickly.

His pitching improved this summer, and grades Junior year, to the point we only started to seriously think of baseball and high academics recently.   I was pleasantly surprised.
He worked hard at both and bloomed but left us a bit unprepared.  
He pitches with good mechanics just over 80, so I did not think D1 was feasible,
but at least 2 ivy coaches were interested.   More but not all D3 coaches were interested (one suggested grow and walk on next year).

Academically he was weaker in the past and getting stronger.  So total GPA is low
for some of the schools but junior year grades were in the range.   Act in range on some portions, lower on others).   

We are in mid atlantic and focusing on NEW england through Mid atlantic schools.
Caltech was mentioned because the coach was very friendly and interested, and my son was excited about it.   Not realistic IMO.

Trying to help him focus on type of school first (liberal arts with stem vs a tech school).
The. if one of them is interested baseball too.
Harvard may be a great place, but if you were meant for a tech school with less liberal arts and more stem, I would not think the name and baseball should sway the decision.
Playing in games vs Princeton, Yale does sound exciting, just not sure if
he'll get the time and classes he needs, meet anyone with similar academic interests outside the classroom.  

Read an interesting. article that D3 high academics may have a slightly lower commitment, but they expect higher grades from their athletes to keep up the school's appearance of no academic compromise.   D1 more concerned you are not failing.
I would think at Ivy it would be somewhere in the middle.

The only thing I might add to this thread is the focus on time commitment regarding STEM majors. Yes, STEM majors are rigorous, but, depending on the school, non-STEM majors can also be extremely rigorous with intense amounts of reading, writing and research that cannot be skated through. Things like 150+ page primary research thesis requirements for humanities focused majors, etc. Certainly this is not the norm, but they are out there. Our son graduated this past Spring with the so called dreaded history degree ha ha, from a school with an extremely demanding liberal arts focus, it was not cake walk to mix with baseball. He was set with a great job lined up three months prior to graduation, and is 100% self sufficient, at least for now ha ha

I agree with the Elite classification regarding some schools. I also agree with the demands on non STEM majors at the elite, and some high academic schools, they can be daunting when you add in a 40+ hour/week demand of baseball. Also not to burst any bubbles but these schools cast a wide net to get down to the lucky 8 or so that get solid offers.(elite) You have to start as one of the "netters" but there is a quite a bit of weaning that goes with the process. The Ivy's to some extent, but the Stanford's, Cal's, Duke's etc are ONLY taking solid D1 prospects as they are looking to compete in very competitive conferences. 

Engineering in general is hard, I don't really care where you go to school. For example, in EE you have electronics lab, computer lab, control systems lab, and others and to get things you design working can take many many hours in the lab and I mean many. Add ivy or elite academic D3 workload on top of that and you have a lot of work. Ask fenway's kid.

 

Some other kids at these type of schools also go for degrees that will guide them into MBA school, law school and medical school and I am sure that at these schools it is not a piece of cake, just ask goosegg's kid. One thing I can tell you is that all these kids are smart.

 

Now, just because one wants to be STEM and play baseball doesn't mean that any ivy or academic D3 will take you. If you pitch, you have to be good. I know of several pitchers going ivy and they are throwing 90+ and position players with plus plus speed and good bats. Great students and great ball players. Look at the pitchers at Columbia for example, these guys were the only team that blanked Miami last year. 

 

At the ivy, patriot or D3 level the workload for baseball will be hard as exemplified by fenway and goosegg, in my opinion the two most knowledgeable people on this site on the subject. And the level of players going in at these schools is getting better and better. If the OP's son can really play and is drawing interest from elite STEMs (ivy or D3), then go there. If harvard is too liberal arts, then go to MIT which is a D3 or Cornell. But at the end,you will also have to be real good at baseball and a HC has to call you and recruit you. As a 2016 the OP's son needs to be wrapping it up by now. And like other great minds in this site say,...go to a school that you will be happy if baseball is taken out of the equation (second order differential equation, that is).

 

Was a Chem E major, couldn't imagine having played baseball as well, particularly because I couldn't hit! Anyway, to those in the know how do the starting nines at The Ivies compare with the good D3 teams and with the ACC/SEC teams? Obviously the big D-1's have more players drafted early but the Columbia games with Miami were a real eye-opener. Is depth the biggest differential or is it also the starters (or both)  that separate the leagues?

Four. I think the biggest difference in the Ivies v. Big D1s is depth and passion.

 

Ivy rosters are pretty small (most less than 30) and a key injury can really test the depth of a team. Virtually every starter has turned down power D1 offers but that's where it ends. On S's team there was a significant drop off in talent beyond the starters. (That also means there is not a lot of competition for starting positions - so no real pushing the envelope for a lot of players.)

 

i would venture a guess that virtually every player on an ACC or SEC has legitimate professional aspirations - starters and reserves. While all the players on S's team matriculated with pro baseball hopes, it really only took the first few fall practices before reality set in. 

 

From S's years, five players are now in proball. I dare say that is a down year for any ACC or SEC team - in fact so down that the coach's job would be in jeopardy.

 

On the other side of the coin, late bloomers can really achieve in the Ivies. S would have been discarded by any power D1 program relatively quickly. But because his team kept rolling him out there - year after bad year - it finally came together.

 

As someone noted, this is a forty year decision; and from the perspective of employment, these schools are high paying job machines.

 

 

I would expect that a top D3, with their #1 and #2 on the mound would be  competitive in the middle of the Ivy League.  Columbia is now setting themselves apart for baseball and also showing that their top players are darn good. Penn. would probably be the same. I would doubt the top D3's would compete all that well with Columbia for instance when matching #1's, 2's, etc, but I also don't think games would be non-competitive.

After one got beyond the top tier pitching at the D3, the depth at an Ivy vs the D3 and the quality of the depth probably should give an edge to the Ivy, overall.

On the other hand, when you look at the success the players and pitchers from Trinity, Tx, are having this year in top Summer leagues like the Northwoods and New England Collegiate, one could plausibly suggest the gap is not all that wide, at least for the top performers for top D3's.

If one took Columbia and put them in the SEC/ACC/Pac 12/Big 12, I think Columbia would be competitive on Friday night.  Talking with a number of Columbia folks over the past couple of weeks, including one of their drafted players from the year they played in Fullerton, it is clear they are getting high quality players and arms. No matter how it gets cut, though, they do not have the depth to compete, successfully, with the power baseball conferences, over the course of a full conference schedule. When talking about the Fullerton Regional and the Miami series, those with strong ties to Columbia baseball pointed to depth which I also interpret to also include the "quality" of the depth as a major difference.

Congratulations on your son generating interest from Ivy and High D3 schools.  Also, congratulations on finding this board and reaching out to its board members for information and advice.  It has been invaluable to my son's 2015 recruiting process.  I think that I have only made one post on this board, but I log on regularly for the nuggets of wisdom.  Receiving the advice of posters such as Fenwaysouth, Goosegg, BOF and Bishopleftiesdad, is invaluable.  Much appreciation to those who have successfully navigated the process and even more appreciation for them to take the time to help.

 

Although at this time, I cannot personally provide advice on actual time requirements for a baseball player majoring in engineering, I shared your same concerns last year when I was somewhat in your shoes. 

 

IMO two of the most important aspects of recruiting, which I am sure we stumbled along the way, were to consider fit academically and athletically, and constantly evaluate athletic ability.  Our number one focus was academics, while realizing that most D1s were a stretch with an outside shot of a roster spot with an Ivy.  We realized and accepted that 2015 could compete and play for D2s and D3s. 

 

My 2015 position player had peripheral interest from a couple Ivy schools, but was not quite good enough to make the cut although his bat tempted a few D1s to consider.  So D1 time evaluation was really never a factor for us.  IMO with parent goggles on, my 2015 could have contributed to many D2s, but most D2s were not an academic fit for my 2015, plus I suspect that the better D2s probably would have been difficult to earn playing time until junior/senior seasons.

 

So high academic D3s were the perfect fit for son. It is probably different for pitchers, but I suspect most D1s including Ivy schools have their 2016 class wrapped up by this summer.  Unless those Ivy head coaches are contacting you right now, I would continue on your plan to find an academic fit with D3 or D2.

 

I suggest that your son identify a few fit schools immediately, and send emails to RC with video asking if they have a late August or early fall camp to get him in front of these coaches and show interest.  2015 played travel ball since age 10, including four PG wood bat championships in Marietta/Atlanta, plus a couple showcases, including Headfirst (which is the best imo); however, I think it is important to get in those schools fall camps immediately if it works with his schedule.

 

Although it is important to take SAT and ACT early (which my son did with SAT but not ACT), I would suggest taking those tests again in September/October to improve scores to increase opportunities and chances for admission. Due to hectic academic and baseball schedule, son only took SAT early, then SAT subject tests in June after junior year, but not ACT.  Taking the ACT the first time in September of his senior year really increased his opportunities because he did really well, but it never should have been taken that late.  His SAT scores were okay, but not stellar.  So take both test as early as possible, but you still have a chance to improve scores.

 

As to time and tech/engineering degree, that was our main concern.  BOF said it best about time compression.  Son narrowed list to 3 to 5 high academic D3s with reputable engineering programs, and had roster invitations and playing opportunities at some excellent schools.  However, all but one played in northeast with many games getting postponed resulting in 35 to 40 games being played in a two month period (March and April).  This was a concern to our family.  Great schools with great students with great on the field success, but for us, playing 4 to 5 times a week as a position player majoring in engineering was not the best fit.

 

After Caltech recruited son in June before senior season, Son eventually chose Caltech because he loves the school, coaches and enormous academic opportunity, plus they primarily play on Fridays and Saturdays due to the fact that they begin playing games in late January with SCIAC conference games beginning in mid February.

 

I understand those who laugh at competiveness of Caltech on the baseball diamond, but our primary concern was academic.  Plus the HC is really beginning to change the culture of the program.  For us, we just have to redefine success.  Caltech will not win the CWS.  Caltech will not win the SCIAC.  However, I believe that Caltech will experience success in the near future as best defined athletically for Caltech, whether that be winning the first conference game in 28 years and later taking a SCIAC series.  We just think it is an enormous life opportunity for our son.  Coach Mark is improving that program and we are just grateful that he is allowing our son to receive an excellent education while being a part of improving the program.

 

Please have your son re-take tests, because Caltech needs all the pitchers it can get   It is not too late for him to put himself in a great position for EA admission at Caltech or any other good D3 schools he chooses.

 

Good luck to your son and family in its journey.

Do you mind my asking, what is "good enough" for Caltech? My son cares about getting into a school that is good for him academically, and coach Mark did speak to my son a number of times. Baseball wise he was interested, trst scores were the issue.

Son had concussion night before ACT and week before SAT subject test. Doctors advised to skip test, but he knew the importance of trying to get the test scores early in the recruiting process. He did OK considering how he felt but going to try and do better to increase chance with top tier d3 or merit scholarships to next tier.

Harvard has many coaches, one at HF liked him but it was not HC. They have a 2 day camp that we can't attend at Harvard, so not expecting movement at Harvard at this point.

Had some NE d3 schools interested before HF,
seems they are still interested. Going to a camp for one, unofficial visit with another that is not running a camp. Third not able to make camp, hope they saw enough at HF to invite him back another day.

Thanks for your input.

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 07:27:40 -0700

The year after Trinity (CT) won the D3 national championship I had a conversation with a Harvard dad who played ball at Trinity. I asked if he thought Trinity could beat Harvard. Harvard had started the season 0-20 due to starting the season playing a bunch of ranked D1 powerhouses. 

 

It it turned out the dad was friends with Coach Decker (then Trinity coach, now Harvard coach). He asked Decker the same question. His response was with Tim Kiely (Angels 28th round) on the mound, yes. After that, no. Trinity had a couple of other players that signed from that team.

As to "good enough", it is probably better to ask the coaches that. Although the numbers are really important, especially at high d3s, the entire application is important, including 5 or 6 essays showing your son's passion for science and math.

 

So, my answer would be to explore the opportunity.  If the coach was showing genuine interest, he must believe there is a chance.  That job is extremely challenging, and he is a young hard working and bright coach who does not strike me as expending substantial time with recruits who do not have a chance to get through admissions.

 

If he doesn't think a recruit is qualified and is still spending time with a recruit, that tells me he thinks that he may be able to pluck a good one if recruit gets better scores or improves grades.

 

With that said, it is extremely competitive, and although my son scored higher than 32 on the ACT, I believe that was the number someone told him he had to get to be considered.  However, please encourage your son to talk with the coaches because each recruit has a different situation.

 

 

Appalachian Mtns - Congratulations to your son attending Caltech!

 

Mine would have been playing there in a NY minute if he could have. If you look around on the D3baseball boards there is a lot of discussion whether Caltech should even be playing NCAA baseball and should move down to club ball. I would say that if the new coach makes them competitive, at least being able to win some games then they should continue. Frankly if they can get a few pitchers then they could at least win one game out of a weekend series, and then could build on it. 

 

Best of luck to your son. 

 

As far as D3 teams in general, if you take the top 10 teams in the country they could easily compete in the Ivy or Patriot leagues. Beyond this it gets a bit dicey as they just don't have the depth. 

 

 

BOF - Thank you!  The family is excited, but we will miss him since he will be on the other side of the country.  We hope to fly out a couple times a year to visit and watch him play.  Thank goodness most home games are streamed video live, plus many other SCIAC teams do the same for some of their games.

 

I understand the debate about Caltech continuing to play D3, but I hope some of those d3 posters are wrong.  Caltech has been playing baseball almost every year since 1909 and is a charter member of the SCIAC.  It is what it is.  There are baseball players on the roster, but depth is the problem; however, it appears to be improving and headed in the right direction.  Will my son see the fruits?  I do not know, but a parent can hope.

 

During the recruiting visit, it was interesting to see a team of 12 players line up to face a team of 30+ players.  However, it appears the roster will be up to about 18 players this year, which is exciting.  Caltech is "turfing" the entire field this year, primarily to conserve water, but it is still an indication of its commitment to try and improve the program (although the natural turf they have now is great in my opinion).  I know it is a long road to hoe, but I just hope my son and his teammates work hard to seize an opportunity or two this year when a team comes strolling in thinking it is the bag.  They gave SCIAC tournament champions, La Verne, a run during tournament pool play losing 3 to 1 in 9 innings.  Not saying it is going to happen, but it would not surprise me if this Caltech team pulls an upset or two the next couple years.  If it happens, it will be for all past Caltech players.  Maybe I am just drinking the freshman parent Kool-aid. ["Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead" ]

 

I understand the strength of schedule effect on at large bids, but I do not think that is enough of a reason to relegate a charter conference member and its hard working players to quit and drop down to club ball.  At least I hope not.

 

Again, thank you for your kind words and helping our recruiting process with so many knowledgeable post.

Good luck to your son at Cal Tech.  A great school obviously.  My son will be competing with yours at some point for California Lutheran.  (Hard to break into the starting line up as a Frosh there, though.)

 

 I think the main disadvantage for Cal Tech is not just the stringent admission standards, but the size of the student body.  There are less than 1000 undergrads there.   It think it's always going to be hard for them to find enough strong athletes that can also satisfy their admissions standards, with a student body that small.    The Claremont Schools are probably not much larger taken individually, and nearly as hard to get into,  but they team up for sports.  Can you imagine Harvey Mudd trying to field multiple sports teams all on its own, without teaming with Scripts and Claremont McKenna?  But that's basically what Cal Tech has to do. 

Appalachian:

 

Our son graduated last spring after a four-year playing career from a high academic D3 that historically had been a laughingstock in baseball.  While his college is not as elite academically as CIT, nor were they as bad at baseball, the college is very selective and the program only averaged about 4-5 wins a year. However, our son believed the program had some talent, and that he could make a difference.  Most importantly, he loved the school.

 

As it turns out, the program won 36 games between his Soph and Junior year, with his Junior year being the first winning season for the program in over 30 years.  They beat some good teams, like Hendrix, La Verne, UTD and others out of conference over his career, as well as finally beating top in-conference teams and winning conference series.  They became an opponent that was respected in their conference. 

 

While they never threatened for post season, the rewards were very great to be a part of this turnaround.  Our son actually ended up in the top 5 all-time for his school in several career pitching categories, like Ks, IP, appearances and ERA.

 

When they won their final game in 2014 season, locking up that historic winning season, you would have thought the fellas won the D3 World Series.

 

One school from his conference was recruiting him hard, son had been accepted early action, etc.  When my son phoned the HC of that school to tell him he was attending this other school, the coach asked him “Why the hell do you think that’s a good idea?”

 

Last season, that same coach sought our son out after their final conference match-up and personally congratulated him on the four year career.

 

 

I hope your son can be part of something as special, baseball-wise, during his years at CIT.

 

Congratulations!!

Pomona's baseball team is doing really well in the SCIAC, and Forbes just ranked it the number one school in the country, so yes, it can be done.

 

BTW 33+ ACT.... you've got a hella smart kid, Appalachian!

SluggerDad - Cal Lutheran, fantastic! Now that is one of the top D3 programs. Congratulations!  Based on scores, I was surprised that they did not win the SCIAC tournament last year.  Yes, you are right, the low enrollment definitely creates a challenge.  Hope to meet you in Cali some day.

Like2Rake - your post fired me up just reading it. What a special experience and treasured memories your son had bonding and playing in that environment and having such individual and team success.  Caltech will unlikely rise to such a win streak, but that is the type of improvement and goals I hope Caltech legitimately pursues.

JCG - thank you - Pomona Pitzer is definitely a top SCIAC program and excellent school.  Congratulations if your son is a part of that program and high academic school.  Standardized test scores are just numbers and IMO too much emphasis are placed on them, but it definitely helped my son with an opportunity.

Really looking forward to following the SCIAC from afar this year.

Ha, no. Just following SCIAC a bit as my 2017 gets ready to pick schools.  My 2015  visited Harvey Mudd, but didn't apply.  My 2017 is a good student, but not  good enough to have a prayer at any of the Claremont colleges.The competition is just too crazy.

"Pomona's baseball team" is actually the "Pomona-Prizer" baseball team.  Two separate colleges with a shared  sports program.  The separate Claremont colleges are too small to field enough teams, with enough depth, to be competitive.   So they combine.   Pomona-Prizer and CMS  = Claremont, Mudd, Scripps.   My point was that with an undergraduate student body of just over 900, (including just over 600 males and just over 300 females)  Cal Tech is bound to have a very hard time finding enough athletes to field competitive D3 teams. Add to that the it's all extremely demanding stem majors and that admissions standards are stringent in the extreme.   Other schools in the SCIAC, even those with similar standards,   ave significantly larger student bodies and attract a much wider range of students.   The Claremont Colleges, taken one by one, would almost certainly have a similar problem.  But but that's precisely why the cooperate the way they do in sports, I would think. 

 

I just started to look at high academic LACs, and several of them have 3/2 program, especially on the Engineering/Science side. The LACs usually have weak engineering program, but the last two years the studnet can transfer to one of the greatest engineering schools and get both a BA from the LAC and a BS/BE from the engineering school. Sounds attractive to me, but what's the catch? Has anyone gone through this option?

 

What does it mean to baseball? Will coach accept a baseball player knowing that he'll only be there for 3 years? Will the athlete be able to play baseball the 2 year at Engineering school? Or does he go through recruiting as a transfer student?

 

One catch to the 3-2 programs is that a lot of them involve schools that play in different divisions--usually a D3 liberal arts school and a D1 engineering school, though sometimes the other way around. There are some that involve two D3 schools.

Almost all high academic liberal arts colleges we looked at have 3-2 or 4-2 engineering programs. 

 

There are also some great liberal arts colleges that have their own four year engineering programs, e.g., Trinity College, Trinity University, Union College, Lafayette (D1), Hope, et.al. These offer a degree in Engineering Science with some type of concentration available in a specific discipline, e.g., electrical, chemical, etc.  Or they offer a traditional four year engineering degree, e.g., BSEE.

 

Will a coach accept a player knowing he will only be there for 3 years?  At many high academic D3's, that can be the case regardless of major as some kids migrate towards academics, internships, other extracurriculars, etc.  Coaches know that some kids will not stay with the program and they know that academics, not baseball, is most important (again, referencing high academic, D3, LACs).

 

We did not see a liberal arts college that required a kid to apply to a specific major.  Nor did we see liberal arts schools that required very early declaration of major.  So kids will have time to decide, change their minds, determine what's most important to them... 

 

In my experience, high academic D3 LACs don't have coaches that are steering kids away from majors nearly as much as we've seen at D1.  In fact, most D3 coaches have emphasized to us the academic successes of their teams and alums with very difficult majors (e.g., lots of pre-meds, computer science, finance, etc.).

 

That said balancing baseball at any level with an engineering curriculum is extraordinarily challenging.  I speak as an electrical engineer who played a sport in college and a father of a 2012 SS/RHP and 2016 SS/RHP.

 

Lastly, it is true that many 3-2 programs are designed with the partnering engineering school being a D1 program.  I have not seen a D3 kid make that jump to one year of D1 ball and engineering though I suppose it's "possible".

of the 6-8 recruits that go to each Ivy league school each year, how many of them are bona fide div 1 studs who could play at any college they wanted?

I specifically know one, but setting that aside - what's your point?  I'm not trying to be a jerk, maybe I'm just missing the argument you are trying to make. 

Definitely not thinking you're a jerk, and not really meaning to argue anything. I should have worded my question better.  I'm just trying to figure out the lay of the land at Ivy/Patriot league schools.  2017 son is what I would call a "tweener", someone who is getting mild interest from these schools but as far as I can tell there are a lot of players like him. I'm just wondering where he might fit at an Ivy, assuming his academic credentials are adequate.  If each Ivy gets a recruiting class that is 100% kids who can play in the Pac 12 or ACC, then smoke Jr. might not have a chance.  But if Ivies take tweeners he might have a chance.  9/7, I'm also sending a pm.  thanks!

Good point, infielddad. Columbia was the no. 83 program in the country in the most recent Top 100 rankings: http://www.d1baseball.com/anal...rams-by-the-numbers/

 

The NCAA RPI last spring had the 2015 Columbia team even higher (no. 67): http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/baseball/d1

 

In my opinion, Dartmouth has had the second-strongest program in the Ivy League as of late. Dartmouth has been in the Ivy League Championship Series (i.e., has won the league or finished as runner-up) the past 8 years, losing each of the past three years to Columbia.