He's the hardest thrower out there. It must be 90.

RJM posted:

I didn't care what my son threw until soph year of high school. I didn't care what a 5' LLer threw. Or a 5'4" 14u player. Or a 5'11", 135 freshman. When he hit 6', 160 I wanted to know.

During those years I had a close idea what he threw. It just didn't matter. I only cared about form, throwing strikes and getting hitters out. Plus there was always some dad with a gun telling me. 

My son cares what his mile time is in gym class, my son cares what his 90ft running time is, my son cares what his exit velocity is, and he cares what his pitching speed is.  It's just another measurable.  It doesn't matter to you or the coach at whatever school he will attend in 4 years time...but this is the kid who use to give me daily reports on who raced who during recess and what the outcome was. He also is the kid who said throwing your max in February is just begging for your arm to fall off.

He likes to compete and he isn't stupid.  Those are HIS numbers, if he wants them, he should have access to them.  I don't have the experience to say you were throwing about X mph.  The last time I tried I was off by about 5-7mph, in the slower direction. 

I think the point has been made a few times on this board that many parents are delusional. I think the worst ones when it comes to velocity are not the parents of pitchers, but the parents of the kids struck out by, or whose team was dominated by, a particular pitcher -- recently I was talking to a guy whose son's high school team was shut down by a rival's LHP. He told me that the kid had to be 85 mph. Now, I had seen this LHP before, and that seemed high -- so I looked him up on PG and they had his high velocity (last fall) as 78 . . .

Not sure where you guys are from, but in our area (Richmond, VA) we typically will have a few guys capable of touching or topping 90 each spring.  We're talking about an area of just under 1 million total population.  This particular year, the number of those is lower than we've seen in years past.  But I could still name you at least 4 guys I know who have hit 90+ at one time or another.  Most games are played in the low 80's.  I've seen an unusual number (for us) of sub-80 guys out there, again in my mind an indicator that the ranks are just a bit thin in this particular cycle. 

That being said, there are a few things to understand.

First, in addition of the natural tendency to exaggerate, even if you get a MPH reading from a reliable source (such as a PG profile page), you're talking about the highest number ever recorded.  Meaning, a typical fastball will be a few notches lower, some fastballs will be even lower than that, and some days the kid just doesn't have his best stuff.  So if, e.g., you see a PG profile for a kid that says 94, on a strong day for him with warm weather, you might see some 94's, but he may top out at 91-92 that day, many fastballs may be 88-89 and some may be only 86. 

One of the things that is a key indicator of a top notch prospect is the ability to hit the high numbers consistently.  Most HS guys are not in this category.

If you're in an area that sees no arms above 80, my thinking is you're way north (short season for playing + cold weather), or you have poor instructional options in your area, or both. 

To give you one example, in the 2007-09 time frame, just the 7 teams in the old Dominion District (around the SW side of town) had 6 pitchers who were at least drafted at some point.  One was an Aflac/PG All-American, another is now in the Orioles' starting rotation.  On the other side of town, there was a future first round pick ($2 million signing bonus after 3 years in the ACC) and he had a teammate 2 years behind him who I believe is still in pro ball as well. 

When you say players don't see high velo much, I guess that depends on where you are.  Our guys see it enough to know it when they see it.  And if you don't pair that fastball with movement or at least a respectable off-speed pitch, the ball will at least get put in play. 

if you go to Florida, Texas or SoCal, I suspect you'll see a large number of power arms. 

2019Dad posted:

The story makes sense given the location. And typically I suppose a 90+ pitcher will toy with HS hitters. But, believe it or not, there are some high school batters who can hit 90+.

There's a local kid who was described recently by ESPN (i.e., not a Dad) this Spring as throwing "94-96" and on a different occasion this Spring as throwing "91-96." He's projected to eventually be a first-rounder. Here are his five league starts so far -- one absolutely dominant, one good, one poor, two fairly decent. He's obviously very good -- I'm just surprised that HS hitters don't all have the reaction described by KANDKFUNK, above.

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	80	.662	5	2	1	7	1	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	82	.707	5	3	2	8	0	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	103	.728	1	0	0	15	2	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	98	.704	7	4	3	9	2	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	4.2	77	.649	6	6	6	2	2	1

We have a local kid here who is a stud and has a father who is a current mlb manager (easy enough to figure out). He throws 94 (as per PG). However, he got into a game this year where his stats are mind-boggling.

3.2 ip, 12 hits, 13 runs, 11 er, 3 BB, 4 K's

Doesn't appear there was an injury issue or anything. he just got lit up in a 21-14 loss against an OK team.

Teaching Elder posted:

I appreciate your thoughts and concerns 2016.  Let me add a another side though.

 

I have gunned my son since he was 8 or 9 in some shape or fashion.  It helped to know which mechanical adjustments worked best.  Did he try to throw his hardest? Yes. But that's exactly what I wanted him to do.   Nyman will tell you, to get velocity, one must throw with intent.  It also provides interesting benchmarks and comparisons .   If a smaller kid is able to throw close to or faster than a larger kid, it is possible, but certainly not fool proof, to get a general idea about raw pitching skills. Then one kind of projects a bit based on potential/expected growth.  PG  has a new feature that tells a pitcher's percentile for fastball velocity.  Great for getting SOME benchmarks, but even that comes with variables.  

8 or 9...Really?  Isn't that Tball / Coach pitch age?  Be careful with wanting your son to throw his absolute hardest all the time.   Especially if he doesn't have someone knowledgeable helping him with his pitching mechanics.   The PG feature mentioned is not new, it has been around since you started  gunning your son . 

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

I didn't care what my son threw until soph year of high school. I didn't care what a 5' LLer threw. Or a 5'4" 14u player. Or a 5'11", 135 freshman. When he hit 6', 160 I wanted to know.

During those years I had a close idea what he threw. It just didn't matter. I only cared about form, throwing strikes and getting hitters out. Plus there was always some dad with a gun telling me. 

My son cares what his mile time is in gym class, my son cares what his 90ft running time is, my son cares what his exit velocity is, and he cares what his pitching speed is.  It's just another measurable.  It doesn't matter to you or the coach at whatever school he will attend in 4 years time...but this is the kid who use to give me daily reports on who raced who during recess and what the outcome was. He also is the kid who said throwing your max in February is just begging for your arm to fall off.

He likes to compete and he isn't stupid.  Those are HIS numbers, if he wants them, he should have access to them.  I don't have the experience to say you were throwing about X mph.  The last time I tried I was off by about 5-7mph, in the slower direction. 

My son always wanted to know. I deemphasized the need to know. The biggest confrontation were the radar guns at the MLB parks. I didn't wanted him unloading without proper warmup. Plus, 1) those machines aren't calibrated often enough to accurate and 2) a friend who worked for the local franchises told me they were set to record high.

Midlo Dad posted:

Not sure where you guys are from, but in our area (Richmond, VA) we typically will have a few guys capable of touching or topping 90 each spring.  We're talking about an area of just under 1 million total population.  This particular year, the number of those is lower than we've seen in years past.  But I could still name you at least 4 guys I know who have hit 90+ at one time or another.  Most games are played in the low 80's.  I've seen an unusual number (for us) of sub-80 guys out there, again in my mind an indicator that the ranks are just a bit thin in this particular cycle. 

That being said, there are a few things to understand.

First, in addition of the natural tendency to exaggerate, even if you get a MPH reading from a reliable source (such as a PG profile page), you're talking about the highest number ever recorded.  Meaning, a typical fastball will be a few notches lower, some fastballs will be even lower than that, and some days the kid just doesn't have his best stuff.  So if, e.g., you see a PG profile for a kid that says 94, on a strong day for him with warm weather, you might see some 94's, but he may top out at 91-92 that day, many fastballs may be 88-89 and some may be only 86. 

One of the things that is a key indicator of a top notch prospect is the ability to hit the high numbers consistently.  Most HS guys are not in this category.

If you're in an area that sees no arms above 80, my thinking is you're way north (short season for playing + cold weather), or you have poor instructional options in your area, or both. 

I don't think north has anything to do with it. Recently two starters and the closer on Vanderbilt were from Massachusetts. Two of them went in the first round.

It's when you get away from major metro areas you are likely to see lower numbers. Or if you're only looking in one conference that's not a large school classification.

As my son once said when visiting Maine, "I think my high school (large high school classification in a large state) sends more athletes to college sports than this state."

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

I didn't care what my son threw until soph year of high school. I didn't care what a 5' LLer threw. Or a 5'4" 14u player. Or a 5'11", 135 freshman. When he hit 6', 160 I wanted to know.

During those years I had a close idea what he threw. It just didn't matter. I only cared about form, throwing strikes and getting hitters out. Plus there was always some dad with a gun telling me. 

My son cares what his mile time is in gym class, my son cares what his 90ft running time is, my son cares what his exit velocity is, and he cares what his pitching speed is.  It's just another measurable.  It doesn't matter to you or the coach at whatever school he will attend in 4 years time...but this is the kid who use to give me daily reports on who raced who during recess and what the outcome was. He also is the kid who said throwing your max in February is just begging for your arm to fall off.

He likes to compete and he isn't stupid.  Those are HIS numbers, if he wants them, he should have access to them.  I don't have the experience to say you were throwing about X mph.  The last time I tried I was off by about 5-7mph, in the slower direction. 

Again, I don't totally disagree.  But I don't completely agree either.  The key to using velo as a "measurable" is knowing what to do with the number to make improvements.  Just "throwing harder" isn't the answer and if you cant provide feedback to the pitcher on how to get better, that is just what they will do and it will cause all kinds of problems to include potential injuries.  All the other measureless that you mention wont cause injury or create mechanical issues if the player tries to correct them without instruction.  IE: Mile run - want to better your time, run a faster pace.  Exit Velo: want a higher number, take more BP and refine your swing, get stronger in the gym, etc.  How does the average, everyday parent, tell a kid to improve his pitching velo...?  I shake my head every time I see a dad at a preteen baseball game with a radar gun. 

I was working a PG event in SoCal at a local high school a few years ago (Sunshine West).  I watched a Dad walk up with one of those $99.99 Bushnell pieces of crap.  He was actually standing in and around several coaches, recruiting coordinators, scouts, and PG event staff, with his handy dandy Bushnell radar gun.  He was taking readings and I could tell he was wondering why his readings were ~20mph slower than 20 stalkers that were there.  1. It was a $99 piece of crap. 2. He was taking his readings from the first base bleachers (almost 90 degrees offset from the pitchers).  That guy was the laughing stock of the whole weekend and he never knew it.  People were actually talking about him the next year when the Sunshine West came back around.  True story. 

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

The story makes sense given the location. And typically I suppose a 90+ pitcher will toy with HS hitters. But, believe it or not, there are some high school batters who can hit 90+.

There's a local kid who was described recently by ESPN (i.e., not a Dad) this Spring as throwing "94-96" and on a different occasion this Spring as throwing "91-96." He's projected to eventually be a first-rounder. Here are his five league starts so far -- one absolutely dominant, one good, one poor, two fairly decent. He's obviously very good -- I'm just surprised that HS hitters don't all have the reaction described by KANDKFUNK, above.

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	80	.662	5	2	1	7	1	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	82	.707	5	3	2	8	0	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	103	.728	1	0	0	15	2	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	98	.704	7	4	3	9	2	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	4.2	77	.649	6	6	6	2	2	1

We have a local kid here who is a stud and has a father who is a current mlb manager (easy enough to figure out). He throws 94 (as per PG). However, he got into a game this year where his stats are mind-boggling.

3.2 ip, 12 hits, 13 runs, 11 er, 3 BB, 4 K's

Doesn't appear there was an injury issue or anything. he just got lit up in a 21-14 loss against an OK team.

It's amazing, isn't it?

The list I provided above was against 5 different teams (he'll have one more league start this week) -- I don't know if it's that kids nowadays see more velocity (they certainly travel more at ages 12-14 and face top kids from around the country), or they can hit against pitching machines that can deliver 90+ more often, or what, but in my day if a high school kid was throwing mid-90s with good control the games would have all been like the third one listed.

bballdad2016 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

I didn't care what my son threw until soph year of high school. I didn't care what a 5' LLer threw. Or a 5'4" 14u player. Or a 5'11", 135 freshman. When he hit 6', 160 I wanted to know.

During those years I had a close idea what he threw. It just didn't matter. I only cared about form, throwing strikes and getting hitters out. Plus there was always some dad with a gun telling me. 

My son cares what his mile time is in gym class, my son cares what his 90ft running time is, my son cares what his exit velocity is, and he cares what his pitching speed is.  It's just another measurable.  It doesn't matter to you or the coach at whatever school he will attend in 4 years time...but this is the kid who use to give me daily reports on who raced who during recess and what the outcome was. He also is the kid who said throwing your max in February is just begging for your arm to fall off.

He likes to compete and he isn't stupid.  Those are HIS numbers, if he wants them, he should have access to them.  I don't have the experience to say you were throwing about X mph.  The last time I tried I was off by about 5-7mph, in the slower direction. 

Again, I don't totally disagree.  But I don't completely agree either.  The key to using velo as a "measurable" is knowing what to do with the number to make improvements.  Just "throwing harder" isn't the answer and if you cant provide feedback to the pitcher on how to get better, that is just what they will do and it will cause all kinds of problems to include potential injuries.  All the other measureless that you mention wont cause injury or create mechanical issues if the player tries to correct them without instruction.  IE: Mile run - want to better your time, run a faster pace.  Exit Velo: want a higher number, take more BP and refine your swing, get stronger in the gym, etc.  How does the average, everyday parent, tell a kid to improve his pitching velo...?  I shake my head every time I see a dad at a preteen baseball game with a radar gun. 

I was working a PG event in SoCal at a local high school a few years ago (Sunshine West).  I watched a Dad walk up with one of those $99.99 Bushnell pieces of crap.  He was actually standing in and around several coaches, recruiting coordinators, scouts, and PG event staff, with his handy dandy Bushnell radar gun.  He was taking readings and I could tell he was wondering why his readings were ~20mph slower than 20 stalkers that were there.  1. It was a $99 piece of crap. 2. He was taking his readings from the first base bleachers (almost 90 degrees offset from the pitchers).  That guy was the laughing stock of the whole weekend and he never knew it.  People were actually talking about him the next year when the Sunshine West came back around.  True story. 

It would have been sweet if the Dad wore a shirt that said "90 mph club" with his sons name on the back. 

 when 2016 was younger (even now) to be honest the thought of how fast does he throw never entered my mind.He was typically the fastest kid around. During school ball I must have been asked a 100 times.During TB in summer team would run across some that maybe was or looked faster.For me it was enough to know he could throw faster than most.Which really put us on another path.One I think gets missed alot.2016 learned to be a pitcher.I know its an ongoing process the goal for him was to be ready and better than most at each step.Knowing what should be the next best pitch to throw and where for our mindset is more important than just lighting one up.Not that lighting one up is not a good way to go.Just not always.His future PC was down last start to watch.Gunning and writing.2016 at this point is just off a tad compared to last yr. That was what a good portion of talking with PC.Not how fast he threw.All I had to do was ask.I don't think he would have thought anything me asking.I didn't .While it certainly helps how fast you throw doesn't make you a pitcher.

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

The story makes sense given the location. And typically I suppose a 90+ pitcher will toy with HS hitters. But, believe it or not, there are some high school batters who can hit 90+.

There's a local kid who was described recently by ESPN (i.e., not a Dad) this Spring as throwing "94-96" and on a different occasion this Spring as throwing "91-96." He's projected to eventually be a first-rounder. Here are his five league starts so far -- one absolutely dominant, one good, one poor, two fairly decent. He's obviously very good -- I'm just surprised that HS hitters don't all have the reaction described by KANDKFUNK, above.

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	80	.662	5	2	1	7	1	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	6.0	82	.707	5	3	2	8	0	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	103	.728	1	0	0	15	2	0

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	7.0	98	.704	7	4	3	9	2	1

	IP	#P	S%	H	R	ER	K	BB	HR
	4.2	77	.649	6	6	6	2	2	1

We have a local kid here who is a stud and has a father who is a current mlb manager (easy enough to figure out). He throws 94 (as per PG). However, he got into a game this year where his stats are mind-boggling.

3.2 ip, 12 hits, 13 runs, 11 er, 3 BB, 4 K's

Doesn't appear there was an injury issue or anything. he just got lit up in a 21-14 loss against an OK team.

It's amazing, isn't it?

The list I provided above was against 5 different teams (he'll have one more league start this week) -- I don't know if it's that kids nowadays see more velocity (they certainly travel more at ages 12-14 and face top kids from around the country), or they can hit against pitching machines that can deliver 90+ more often, or what, but in my day if a high school kid was throwing mid-90s with good control the games would have all been like the third one listed.

I think it has a lot to do with the level of competition faced at the <13U...  Kids facing 60mph plus from 46' and 50' is very common.  Point being they are not scared of the speed.  

Teaching Elder posted:

Bogeyorpar posted:

Slightly off topic question: anyone know if Pocket Radar Ball Coach readings are accurate when measure from behind the fence? Or is it always lower than real speed?

I have a pocket radar and whenever I check pitcher's speed, it's always much lower than what their parents think they are. E.g. a big pitcher told everyone he throws 84, but the fastest I every got was 78. Another time our opposing team pitcher looks really fast, one of our parent said "at least 80+", but the radar reading is 76.

I used to think that the pocket radar must be 5mph off. Now I'm confused. Maybe the radar is correct and the parents are overstating the velocity?

I think that Pocket Radar is pretty accurate from behind the fence.  Son went to a pre-season tryout/showcase for his travel team and go the benefit of several stalker readings that were only a couple of MPH below what son was throwing in April.  (He got a little bigger and stronger between January or February when the event was held and April.)  Readings do depend, however, on how far back the backstop is.  PRs have a limited range.

I wonder how far is too far and where's the dropoff starts? I used the PR BC at a bull pen session, where I stand just a few feet behind the catcher (behind a screen, of course), and it does show a few mph higher velo for most pitchers.

And I read online on another forum, someone claimed that "PR should be used from right behind the pitcher to get accurate read." If that's the case, that means PR has very limited range.

Bogeyorpar posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

Bogeyorpar posted:

Slightly off topic question: anyone know if Pocket Radar Ball Coach readings are accurate when measure from behind the fence? Or is it always lower than real speed?

I have a pocket radar and whenever I check pitcher's speed, it's always much lower than what their parents think they are. E.g. a big pitcher told everyone he throws 84, but the fastest I every got was 78. Another time our opposing team pitcher looks really fast, one of our parent said "at least 80+", but the radar reading is 76.

I used to think that the pocket radar must be 5mph off. Now I'm confused. Maybe the radar is correct and the parents are overstating the velocity?

I think that Pocket Radar is pretty accurate from behind the fence.  Son went to a pre-season tryout/showcase for his travel team and go the benefit of several stalker readings that were only a couple of MPH below what son was throwing in April.  (He got a little bigger and stronger between January or February when the event was held and April.)  Readings do depend, however, on how far back the backstop is.  PRs have a limited range.

I wonder how far is too far and where's the dropoff starts? I used the PR BC at a bull pen session, where I stand just a few feet behind the catcher (behind a screen, of course), and it does show a few mph higher velo for most pitchers.

And I read online on another forum, someone claimed that "PR should be used from right behind the pitcher to get accurate read." If that's the case, that means PR has very limited range.

They have some posted info., and if i recall it's like 120 feet.   To get an out- of- hand reading I am guessing no more than about 60 feet from home.  Btw.  How did you know that the pocket radar was reading higher than it should have been?

I bought one of those Bushnells once and agree, I wasted my $100.

Also have tried the Pocket RADAR thingy.  My experience is that it is reasonably accurate, BUT if you set up behind home plate, you'll get the MPH at home plate.  If you set up behind the mound, you'll get the MPH at muzzle velocity, which is typically a higher number.

Of course, you can't go out on the field during a game.  So the PR is most useful in bullpen situations.  If you get behind the backstop at a game, you'll run 2-4 mph below the likely release point velo in your readings.  And if the backstop is really deep, you'll often struggle to get any readings at all.

The really top-of-the-line guns now flash both MPH numbers, i.e., at release and at the plate.  It's interesting to see how some guys' fastballs hold velo while others drop off surprisingly substantially.  I'm not sure I know why that is, but I know that it does happen and pro scouts do measure it.

Midlo Dad posted:

I bought one of those Bushnells once and agree, I wasted my $100.

Also have tried the Pocket RADAR thingy.  My experience is that it is reasonably accurate, BUT if you set up behind home plate, you'll get the MPH at home plate.  If you set up behind the mound, you'll get the MPH at muzzle velocity, which is typically a higher number.

Of course, you can't go out on the field during a game.  So the PR is most useful in bullpen situations.  If you get behind the backstop at a game, you'll run 2-4 mph below the likely release point velo in your readings.  And if the backstop is really deep, you'll often struggle to get any readings at all.

The really top-of-the-line guns now flash both MPH numbers, i.e., at release and at the plate.  It's interesting to see how some guys' fastballs hold velo while others drop off surprisingly substantially.  I'm not sure I know why that is, but I know that it does happen and pro scouts do measure it.

This is a terrific post -- really interesting and useful. Thank you.

My anecdotal experiences.....

I've seen the biggest of big high school games - at least for the state of Ohio....

Most high school pitchers are lucky if they can hit low 80's.  The exceptions I saw at the high school level were mid 80's.  Our high school coach said if he had two guys who could throw mid-80's he could win the state championship.  I saw one guy who could throw above 90 in high school and that was in the State championship game.  He was 6'10" and became a 1st round draft pick of the New York Yankees after a fine career at NC State.  I am sure if you can watch baseball in East Cobb, Southern California, Florida, or Texas, for example you'll see a higher percentage  of guys throwing mid 80's and above.  90 is very, very rare however. 

At the collegiate level, the cruising speed for almost all D1 pitchers I watched was about 88 mph.  Closers and bull pen guys were the ones I usually saw go above 90 in a game situation.  We had a kid who was 92-94 as a freshman  closer.  When they made him a starter as a sophomore and junior his cruising speed was 89 mph.  Guys can have a one rep max over 90 in the bull pen and then that is what the average person quotes them at thereafter.  Sit behind the radar guns at the game and you'll see the cruising number well-below the one rep max number that a guy may have achieved one time in a bullpen on his best day.

At the pro level, I often see guys who do not touch 90.  Lefties especially are notoriously below 90.  Guys who can cruise above 90 and can make it look even faster with consistent off-speed pitching usually do not spend too much time in the minor leagues.   

I've set up right behind the plate with the PR Ball Coach and had very accurate readings.  My son was using it a few weeks ago on a pitcher and he was a few rows into the bleachers on a large HS field and it was still giving the same numbers as a Stalker Sport.  I hated the first pocket radar but I've been impressed with the ball coach.   

I too find it to be accurate from behind the plate. 

I like the anonymity of being able to be up in the stands with my Stalker radar.  

One thing that has been interesting about the last few years of MLB has been the rediscovery of the sinker as the primary pitch. 

You just don't see all the mid/upper 90's guys like you did 6-7 years ago.  For all the talk about juiced-up hitters, it would seem pitchers were a big part of the problem as well.

A ton of veteran guys are out there now trying to stay in the bigs in the 88-92 range.  E.g., watched Ubaldo Jimenez the other night.  Whether his fall off is just a product of aging, wear and tear over the years, or something else, who knows.  But it's definitely going on.  Jered Weaver is barely topping 80 (though getting shelled); Jonathan Papelbon is trying to close games at 91. 

One thing about MLB though is the 5-man rotation.  Your typical HS or college starter goes once a week, lots of rest and recovery time (if his coach isn't also using him out of the bullpen that is).  When you get fewer days off it's hard to be max velo every time out.

So guys who might have been 96 in the past go out there at 93 but find that straight 4-seamers at that speed get hammered, next thing you know they're throwing the sinker at 90-91 instead -- and getting outs.

Midlo Dad posted:

One thing that has been interesting about the last few years of MLB has been the rediscovery of the sinker as the primary pitch. 

You just don't see all the mid/upper 90's guys like you did 6-7 years ago.  For all the talk about juiced-up hitters, it would seem pitchers were a big part of the problem as well.

A ton of veteran guys are out there now trying to stay in the bigs in the 88-92 range.  E.g., watched Jubaldo Jimenez the other night.  Whether his fall off is just a product of aging, wear and tear over the years, or something else, who knows.  But it's definitely going on.  Jered Weaver is barely topping 80 (though getting shelled); Jonathan Papelbon is trying to close games at 91. 

One thing about MLB though is the 5-man rotation.  Your typical HS or college starter goes once a week, lots of rest and recovery time (if his coach isn't also using him out of the bullpen that is).  When you get fewer days off it's hard to be max velo every time out.

So guys who might have been 96 in the past go out there at 93 but find that straight 4-seamers at that speed get hammered, next thing you know they're throwing the sinker at 90-91 instead -- and getting outs.

Totally agree.  The other advantage to sinkers is the ground ball outs you get often reduces the number of pitches you have to throw. 

Justin Verlander is also now in the lower 90's and apparently getting hit hard.  I see 90's in the minors but it does not seem as often.  Jibaldo Jimenez when he was with the Indians was more of a junk ball pitcher.  The days he had in Colorado have not come back to him.  I see Stephen Strasburg has just singed a long term contract.  Does anyone know what his velocity is now?

I have a pocket radar that I purchased used on ebay and another dad on our HS team has the newer version.  We've been getting similar if not exact readings when we've used them together.  We did stand next to a college coach with a "real" gun during one game and the PR was consistently 1 mph below what he had.    

We are in NY just north of NYC.  Most of the pitchers we've seen have been high 70s to low 80s.  Our team has one 2016 D1 commit and he has been as high as 87 (when we were gunning which is not all the time) but most of the time he's 83-85.  We saw one lefty 2018 (who I'm guessing will be a D1 commit at some this summer) who hit 88 and sat around 84-85 most of the game.  

There are at least 2 guys in this area who have highs of 93-94 on PG, who are 2016 D1 commits and potentially draft picks.  They are the only ones who I know that throw that hard around here.  They are in the same league and play each other 2x a year and then have to face each other in the sectional playoffs to go to the states.  They've never pitched in the same game but supposedly that's going to happen today.   

Strasburg was on last night vs Detroit at Nats Park. He was sitting at 95-96 with some 97s. Change at 90 with big action. If he stays sound, he is worth the 175 / 7 years he just got extended for. If he stays sound....  

MKbaseballdad posted:

I have a pocket radar that I purchased used on ebay and another dad on our HS team has the newer version.  We've been getting similar if not exact readings when we've used them together.  We did stand next to a college coach with a "real" gun during one game and the PR was consistently 1 mph below what he had.    

We are in NY just north of NYC.  Most of the pitchers we've seen have been high 70s to low 80s.  Our team has one 2016 D1 commit and he has been as high as 87 (when we were gunning which is not all the time) but most of the time he's 83-85.  We saw one lefty 2018 (who I'm guessing will be a D1 commit at some this summer) who hit 88 and sat around 84-85 most of the game.  

There are at least 2 guys in this area who have highs of 93-94 on PG, who are 2016 D1 commits and potentially draft picks.  They are the only ones who I know that throw that hard around here.  They are in the same league and play each other 2x a year and then have to face each other in the sectional playoffs to go to the states.  They've never pitched in the same game but supposedly that's going to happen today.   

I've owned both the original Bushnell, the Bushnell III and a couple of Stalkers. The entire difference is range. I assume the same for the PR. If all you use it for is bullpen work, the Bushnell is a great budget option. The original Bushnell, if you stood behind the pitcher or right behind the catcher was accurate and picked up early out of the hand. With the Bushnell III the range was extended and, if there wasn't a lot of foul territory behind home, you could get accurate readings from behind the backstop. However, move more than about 40 feet from home and you started picking up the ball later in its path to the plate. Of course, with a Stalker, you can be far from the mound and get accurate readings. I have owned and used the Stalker side-by-side with the Bushnell III and they were usually quite accurate from close range. If you want to sit in the stands, though, you'll have to make a bigger investment.

Midlo Dad posted:

I bought one of those Bushnells once and agree, I wasted my $100.

Also have tried the Pocket RADAR thingy.  My experience is that it is reasonably accurate, BUT if you set up behind home plate, you'll get the MPH at home plate.  If you set up behind the mound, you'll get the MPH at muzzle velocity, which is typically a higher number.

Of course, you can't go out on the field during a game.  So the PR is most useful in bullpen situations.  If you get behind the backstop at a game, you'll run 2-4 mph below the likely release point velo in your readings.  And if the backstop is really deep, you'll often struggle to get any readings at all.

The really top-of-the-line guns now flash both MPH numbers, i.e., at release and at the plate.  It's interesting to see how some guys' fastballs hold velo while others drop off surprisingly substantially.  I'm not sure I know why that is, but I know that it does happen and pro scouts do measure it.

Back in the day when I was in the loop on this stuff (80s-90s), you had 2 guns. The "Ray" & the "Jugs." the Ray would click it at just in front of the plate & the Jugs was out of the hand at release. It was usually about a 4-6 mph swing with the Jugs being higher, obviously. If you had anyone pop 90 on the Ray, it was front page news. Now, my understanding is that all of the readings you see on MLB & PG etc are "Jugs" at release #S. Way more sexy to post those #S. Do you see it this way?

All our readings are from Stalker or in some cases TrackMan.

I used the Ray Gun many years ago.  Pretty much 84 on the Ray Gun was what today is 90 or better.  The Ray gun is pretty much obsolete these days.  If you want to know what the Pro scouts and most college recruiters are getting, you should probably use a Stalker.  

That said, the Pocket Radar (new version) is accurate if within a certain distance from the pitcher.

PGStaff posted:

All our readings are from Stalker or in some cases TrackMan.

I used the Ray Gun many years ago.  Pretty much 84 on the Ray Gun was what today is 90 or better.  The Ray gun is pretty much obsolete these days.  If you want to know what the Pro scouts and most college recruiters are getting, you should probably use a Stalker.  

That said, the Pocket Radar (new version) is accurate if within a certain distance from the pitcher.

That's interesting PG about the 84 mph.  I am wondering then if what we are seeing as 96 mph today is really closer to 90 mph? 

Do you think modern guns and MPH numbers are perhaps artificially elevated to create interest in the game?  I remember they tried to time Bob Feller using a motorcycle.  Perhaps someone should get on a motorcycle, get it going to 90 mph and see what speed is recorded using a modern stalker gun.

ClevelandDad posted:

PGStaff posted:

All our readings are from Stalker or in some cases TrackMan.

I used the Ray Gun many years ago.  Pretty much 84 on the Ray Gun was what today is 90 or better.  The Ray gun is pretty much obsolete these days.  If you want to know what the Pro scouts and most college recruiters are getting, you should probably use a Stalker.  

That said, the Pocket Radar (new version) is accurate if within a certain distance from the pitcher.

That's interesting PG about the 84 mph.  I am wondering then if what we are seeing as 96 mph today is really closer to 90 mph? 

Do you think modern guns and MPH numbers are perhaps artificially elevated to create interest in the game?  I remember they tried to time Bob Feller using a motorcycle.  Perhaps someone should get on a motorcycle, get it going to 90 mph and see what speed is recorded using a modern stalker gun.

There is a pay per view called "Fastball" out now that compares all known high velocity throwers dating back to Walter Johnson (first scientifically measured high velocity thrower) up through Chapman & his 105 MPH on the Stalker. Looks at Feller vs. Motorcycle, Nolan's 100.9 Guinness record in the 70s & everything in between. Breaks down all of the methods used to measure & the findings are very interesting to say the least. Well worth the watch.

Good stuff Steve A.  Welcome to the hsbbweb!

Can't pass on an opportunity to give a shout out to Alan Nathan at the University of Illinois and his site "The Physics of Baseball".  While he does not seem to focus much on pitching speeds, he does significant work on aerodynamics as well as ball/bat collisions.  Was reading an article on his site (he posts his own and others as well) where, needing the pitches speed to complete the analysis (was not available) he simply used the slow-mo film (1,500 frames per second or something like that) to calculate speed at impact.  I am 99% confident that Stalker is dialed in pretty accurately - that said would love to know what their quality control process is before shipping out their product.

SteveA,

The speed is the speed.

It all depends on when the instrument you use reads that speed.

For the past couple decades, the standard has always been velocity out of the hand.

Though we also have guns that will give us the velocity at the plate or both out of hand (peak) and at the plate.  Some interesting numbers at times.  All fastballs don't lose the same amount of speed by the time they reach the plate.

I've never completely understood the Bob Feller motorcycle experiment.  If he threw a baseball 96 mph it would be around 90 mph in 60 feet.  If the motorcycle was going 96 mph it would go 96 for far more than 60 feet.

One thing I do know... there are more pitchers throwing at a higher velocity than ever before.  Just the increase over the past 10 years is amazing.

You're right Jerry.  Did you see the SI write up a couple years back talking about the proliferation of 90+ guys? Noted how training is mass producing 90 mph throwers.   94 seems to be the new 90, eh.  

Don't think using a motorcycle nowadays is a very good idea.When I tried it someone locked the gate behind me.Had to leave the bike there so I could make my getaway.

When I was young it seemed important to find out how fast every vehicle of mine could go.  I was about 21 when I got married and went out and bought a motorcycle.  So I took it for a spin out on a county blacktop and before long I got it up to 120 mph.  Then hit a big rut in the road!  As I was flying through the air I knew that it was the end.  Suppose I was flying over 100mph to start. Not sure how much velocity my body slowed down before landing.  I ended up in a fully grown corn field and laid there for a minute trying to figure out if I was going to make it.  Moving very slowly I couldn't feel anything that was broken.  Anyhow the corn field saved me by cushioning the fall and believe it or not all I had was a bunch of scratches.

The motorcycle was pretty much totaled.  That was the last time I've been on one.  Thank the lord for that tall Iowa corn.  BTW, Bob Feller grew up on an Iowa farm. And his best fastball wouldn't have even come close to touching me and that motorcycle that day.

Do you still eat corn after seeing it coming at you 100 mph?

PGStaff posted:

SteveA,

The speed is the speed.

It all depends on when the instrument you use reads that speed.

For the past couple decades, the standard has always been velocity out of the hand.

Though we also have guns that will give us the velocity at the plate or both out of hand (peak) and at the plate.  Some interesting numbers at times.  All fastballs don't lose the same amount of speed by the time they reach the plate.

I've never completely understood the Bob Feller motorcycle experiment.  If he threw a baseball 96 mph it would be around 90 mph in 60 feet.  If the motorcycle was going 96 mph it would go 96 for far more than 60 feet.

One thing I do know... there are more pitchers throwing at a higher velocity than ever before.  Just the increase over the past 10 years is amazing.

Hey PG,

Agree. Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it. For those who may not get opportunity to watch the "Fastball" video I will give you some details on it (spoiler alert). They examine Walter Johnsons test back in the 20s. He threw in a shooting range through a mesh of thin wires that triggered a signal & then had a panel about 10' beyond that . They calculated time from wire to panel & determined that it was about 84 mph at the panel strike at roughly 70 feet. This extrapolates back to about 94 mph out of the hand. On Feller they examine video of the Motorcycle test & determine he was 101 or so out of the hand. Street clothes on flat ground (wow!)

Chapman is contemporary so no issues there at 105. In 1973 they brought in Texas Instruments to the Astrodome to clock Nolan. In the 9th Inning he threw a pitch 100.9. Their equipment measured the pitch right at home plate. They have a super genius scientist examine all of these methods & extrapolate everything out in relation to todays gun readings. The short of it is that they all threw extreme gas but Nolan's 1973 would be 108 mph plus today.

Interesting note is segment on Steve Dalkowski (Look up his Minor League #s for a rush). Everyone who saw this cat in person said he threw it harder than Nolan & anyone else they ever saw & it was not close. Earl Weaver & many others. Ted Williams stepped in on him in BP one day & looked at 1 pitch , stepped out & said never again (Dalkowski was a LHP). Sad story on this guy. No video of him exists.

I wish I could have seen Dalkowski pitch.  The stories are amazing.

He was definitely a strike out or walk guy. BTW, from what I hear he would have had TJ surgery if he would have pitched in this era.

Nolan Ryan, despite being a power pitcher, had the highest life time pitch count in history.  Even much higher than the old time guys that threw both ends of a double header. I'm not sure this record is official, but when you consider that he had the most strikeouts and the most walks in the history of baseball, it is logical to think he threw the most pitches of anyone that has ever lived.

Guess it is no wonder that he claims pitchers today are babied too much.

I got to watch Grant Gambrell pitch against us last night!  He is the real deal.  I can't confirm how hard he was throwing, but his secondary pitches were nasty.  His curve had great bite to it.  I love watching a hard thrower dominate working off his secondary stuff.