Heavy bats

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
My son is 6'1" 175 180. He can swing it.
Now, any info on the 33" myth?

Well, I might be willing to discuss or try to provide info on the 33" myth--if I knew what the heck you're talking about.
Are you implying that the assertion that most college players swing a 33 is a myth?
Or that it's a myth that 33" is a good size for a college player?
Or perhaps you are asserting that adult bats should be made in a wider range of lengths than 30-34?
Or asserting that 33" is a fad, and a new fad might lead to everybody swinging a 36" or enlightment might give rise to a diversity of bat lengths?

My son is on a 16U team, the only kid that uses a bat over 33" is 6'3", 240 lbs. mostly muscle. Not sure why but he uses a 35-32. The only one I have ever seen. All the other kids use 33" or 32" and most kids are over 6'. I think bat control with faster pitching is more important than bat weight.

If the ball doesn't go as far with a 33" as it does with a 34" what's the difference. Does it really matter that the ball goes 407' vs. 400. If a kid is a big power hitter the ball will go far enough no matter what size bat he uses. I think it would be better to add the bat control to the power.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
My son is 6'1" 175 180. He can swing it.
Now, any info on the 33" myth?

I will try to articulate the bat manufacturer’s point of view. We tried to offer more lengths than just 32”, 33”, 34. During the days of no BESR restrictions, we offered 2-3/4 barrel at -5 drop. We offered lengths every half inch (32”, 32.5”, etc). This created many SKUs. The retailers who buy from manufacturers could not forecast quantities to by for each of those lengths. Additionally what we found that only the very good batters were able to differentiate between 32” and 32.5”. Additionally, there is a manufacturing weight tolerance that may make these half inch lengths overlap in weight. So the business aspect of wider lengths started to become complicated. Hence most manufacturers have reduced the number of different lengths.
From my experience, most high school players select 32” or 33”pretty evenly with younger kids picking 32” and older kids picking 33”. Most college players select 33” and 34” with the majority picking 33”. This may have to do with faster pitch speed at the college level. Lengths less than 32” is too small for most HS kids while lengths greater than 34” is too heavy for the most college kids.
Similar statistics are available for slowpitch softball where all bats are 34” but the popular bat weights are 26 oz, 27 oz, and 28 oz.
Finally one must know that bat weight is less important than the bat moment of inertia (aka inertia or swing weight).
Just my two cents.

Thanks for reading my wordy post.

quote:

Or asserting that 33" is a fad, and a new fad might lead to everybody swinging a 36" or enlightment might give rise to a diversity of bat lengths?

Thats it 3finger,
I don't understand why the majority use a 33" bat. All kids have different abilities. It should be a vast difference in bats. It just seems strange to me. Growing up, kids used all different sizes of bats. The only time we used the same size was when someone got a new bat and we all used it. Just because it was new and "superior" in our minds. It wasn't better for all of us but we all thought it was because it was new.

Does anybody know what size bats were being swung in college 5 or 10 or 15 years ago? Just curious to see if there has been any change and why. I cannot let this go.

You stated the size of your son, isnt he 12 years old?if so you have a big kid, mine is almost 19 and is 6'0 and 170.Cant speak to anyone but him, but he likes the 33". its funny becasue we found the bat he loves on sale, its last years stelath with reg. flex, the description on this bat store on the internet said this bat was for the kid hitting singles and a bunter, etc, and the stiff flex was for the power hitter. Funny my son has hit 20 HRs with his reg. flex bat, and many many doubles, so if you w3re looking at the descrition you would think a smaller guy should have this bat. But my son gets pop from it, he likes the reg. flex, not the stiff flex. just prefernce some people like all aluminum, some hate two piece bats, some hated the stealth composites when they first came out. besides the size look at the types of bats kids use. some flex, some not, some 2 piece some not, some all aluminun some not, etc etc. Now easton has come out with a 2 piece bat that has a compsite handle with some flex, but not a composite barrel.Just peoples preference.Maybe becasue so many kids borrow bats , or they have team bats in college they use a certain size. why does it mater to you so much?

Fanof the game,
In the great scheme of things it doesn't matter a whole lot. My son is 14 and he will change bats many times before he is done in baseball. I use this site for information. I love the fact that I can go on and read about techniques in fielding, batting and training at any time. There are pro's and con's for all techniques. Things are always changing. When I see that 33" is the way to go I question the reasoning behind it. I have not seen anything to change my reasoning. If bat speed is king, why doesn't everyone use a 32" for the increase in speed? A 32" will knock it out easily enough. It just looks like a fad or trend to me. Kinda like when Rocky I came out. He drank a half dozen eggs to start his day and all across America, kids started drinking eggs in the morning when they were training. Not a real good idea. But they did it anyway.

I am just trying to find out if it has a true basis behind the trend or is it just the latest fad to sweep baseball. As you know, sports are all about copying success. If someone or some program has success they will be copied until they find the holes in it. I am just looking for the holes.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Does anybody know what size bats were being swung in college 5 or 10 or 15 years ago? Just curious to see if there has been any change and why. I cannot let this go.

I played NAIA ball back in 93 & 94 and unless I am mistaken I believe we were using -5's to hit with. I don't think the -3 came into play until the late 90's when I started as a head coach.

When I played in college (graduated in 90) the hot bat was the Easton Black Magic. I used a 33/30 and then a 34/31 my senior year. I used wood between my junior and senior year, thus the 33 felt small after that so I went to the 34.

Doughnutman,

I was just curious thats all not trying to interrogate you. Your son is still a big boy for 14. Probably good he gets used to the 34".Anyway a 32" is too short of a bat as far as what my son says. doenst get enough plate coverage for the outside pitch esp. even in college when they call it 2-3 balls off the plate LOL The 33" gives him enough plate coverage and the weight works well. dont know why most of his team uses 33" maybe its just whats there who knows. My son useda 32" though his sophmore year in hs then bumped up. Interesting if it is a fad. My son is pretty particuar to how a bat feels in his hands so for him its about performance, wouldnt matter to him what anyone else was swinging. But for others it could be.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
On a typical college roster you would have around 12 kids using 33 inch, 12 kids using 32 inch and 12 kids using 34 inch to get the increase in speed they need. But it looks like most are using 33 inch regardless of differing abilities. Is everyone recruiting mainly kids that can swing a 33" bat and ignoring or changing kids once they get them if they don't?

You do realize that there are not 36 hitters on a college team, you are lucky to have 20 players who actually hit since most pitchers do not hit.

Short of that, it is more the fact that you may have a couple of guys who are monsters and a couple who are smaller but for the most part they use the same size bat. The biggest hitter on the team uses a 33" and can generate a very quick bat on his monster HR's.

When in high school, he used 32", he like 3finger's son, he attended a very high profile Catholic High school (different) and he played for NorCal for over 3 years. The high school team won their section 2 out of 3 of his last 3 seasons and was a part of a very talented travel team which won events like the JO's, WWBA, and other tournaments.

During fall ball, he just recently shot a HR over the score board off of one of the possible weekend starters who tried to come inside with a 90+ mph fastball, yet goes oppo on off speed pitches that are away.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I don't understand why the majority use a 33" bat. All kids have different abilities. It should be a vast difference in bats.

Well, in a sense there is a wide range in bats from Tball to MLB! But the variance in size, strength and ability among the players swinging those bats is even wider.

There is good reason to believe that a 33" bat is not a fad, but is driven by the rules regarding bats, the size of the strike zone, and the apparent inverse relationship between bat speed and the efficiency of the ball-bat collision.

Let's try to break this into bite-size chunks. First, what should a bat be like in order to hit the ball the farthest? A professor at U of Arizona (Terry Bahill) has over the years used a variety of players and measured the bat speeds they could attain as function of bat weight and/or moment of inertia. (The MOI relates to how hard it is to pivot a bat about the player's hands. For a given weight and length, the bat is harder to swing if the weight is located near the barrel of the bat, as it is with a wood bat. Non-wood bats tend to have a lower fraction of their weight at the barrel, and are easier to swing fast.)

Typically, for MLB players, U of A softball players, and on down into youth baseball, the bat speed falls as the weight or MOI goes up, but the efficiency of collision is improved and that makes up for the loss in speed. For a MLB player swinging a wood bat against batting practice pitching, a 40 ounce bat gives the most distance. But Bahill also found that the distance only decreased by 1% when the weight was reduced to 31 ounces! (Similar to what Adair calculated, cited in an earlier post.) The drop-off in distance does get steeper for still lighter bats, so even if a 34/20 existed, an adult male wouldn't use it.

The softball women did better with lighter bats, but at a heavy 31 ounces, the ball went almost as far as it did for a 24 ounce bat. So a college woman and a MLB player could use the same bat against BP pitching and hit the ball close to the distance they could achieve with a bat of (for them) optimum weight. The reality is that bat weight has a very minor effect on the distance the batted ball travels.

But there are some other realities. The NCAA and NFHS regulate bats to be not lighter than a -3 drop. BESR certification these days also sets a lower limit on MOI. There's no limit on how heavy a bat can be or on how large the MOI. These one-sided limits tell us that although less weight tends to produce (slightly) lower ball speeds, less weight is what players want, and given the chance, they'd use a -5 or -7. Another way of looking at this is that the -3 drop means for a given weight, batters prefer a longer bat.

Now, it's no secret why batters want a lighter bat: it takes less time to initiate and complete a swing, which gives the batter more time to recognize and adjust to the pitch. It's also no mystery why players want a longer bat-- it gives them more coverage of the strike zone. (BTW, it is ironic that as a youth player gets bigger and stronger, and can handle a longer bat, the strike zone gets smaller.)

Since weight and length are completely coupled-- remember, everybody wants to be at the -3 limit-- players gravitate to the lightest and shortest bat that will cover the zone. Collegiate players seem to mostly go for 33" bats; high school underclassmen tend to be 20% lighter and 50% weaker than college kids, but they don't look for a bat that is 20% or 50% lighter-- they settle for one that is 1 to 2" shorter/lighter.

The size of the strike zone is the major driver in the choice of the length of the bat, once the players have reached the point that they can effectively swing a 31"+ bat


In writing this, I've been very casual and have lumped weight and MOI together. For non-wood bats, designers can and do fiddle with the MOI by varying the distribution of weight along the length of the bat. Some 34/31s are easier to swing than other 33/30s, in part because of the MOI difference and partly because there can easily be a 1/2 ounce variation in weight among one manufacturing lot. However, most college teams use one brand of bat, so the MOI and length/weight are very correlated.

Edited 12/09/08 to correct a typo. Thanks VikramSports!

3FingeredGlove,

That was a great post. Your information absolutely amazes me. What do you do for a living? Just curious becasue you are very detail orinted and smart.

Doughnutman, do you really think that kids and especially parents who have asperations for scholarships and possibly being drafted would use a bat because it is a fad? Come on, their is too much at stake to do something so silly.
I would say the 33-30 bat works for most kids because it has the length and the weight that meets kids needs for bat speed and plate coverage.

Some kids your sons age, when they are bigger like him, like to show they are strong by using a bigger bat. You said yourself the bat is a little heavy for him. Why use it then. I would bet there are very few kids 6'1", regardless of their age, who use a 34" bat. Maybe he is trying to show everyone how strong he is. I am not judging him but saying that when kids are younger they sometimes like to prove how strong they are.

You seem to be questioning everyone elses motives, I just wanted to give you something to think about.

Hi 3FingeredGlove

Excellent post on physics of baseball. You articulated it very well. I also like Dr. Bahill’s research.

It appears to me that there may be a minor typo….. “These one-sided limits tell us that although less weight tends to produce (slightly) lower bat speeds,…”.

Is it accurate to say that less weight (more precisely less MOI) tends to produce higher bat speed…”?

Regards

fillsfan,
I know why my son swings the 34". He likes the extra length because he is pitched away a lot and he likes to swing the biggest bat on the team. Never denied that. Some of his teammates borrow it when we face a slow guy. I was curious why others swing the bat that they do. He has 3 teammamtes that swing 33", a couple swing -5 and the rest swing 32". I don't need to find out why he does it. My assumption was that by the time he was a Freshman he would have swung the 34" for 2 years and it should feel like a tooth pick for him. I consider it an advantage. We shall see. He can always switch if it doesn't work.

3Fingeredglove,
Thanks for the info. What you say makes a lot of sense. The thing that you have to remember about research is that the results don't change, but the interpretation of the results sometimes do. We will see in five years if that is still the case. Kids are a lot bigger now and they are getting bigger every year. I would expect a lot more of the 34" in the future. Just a theory and only time will tell. Maybe we will get lucky and everyone will have to go to wood. That would def change sizes.

Homerun04,
Do pitchers in college own bats? I assumed that they at least worked on bunting. Guess I was wrong. Thanks for the info.

3 finger,
Two things. Thanks a lot for the precise info. That is what I was looking for but couldn't find. It is good to know that their is a reason for the choice of bat. The last part you mentioned was that the strike zone is very important in bat choice. I guess that means that youth kids should swing the longest bat possible. I have seen an awful lot of strikes called that are 10" off the plate and 6" off the ground LOL. And I haven't seen it that much better in HS. Blue loves the away pitch for some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Homerun04,
Do pitchers in college own bats? I assumed that they at least worked on bunting. Guess I was wrong. Thanks for the info.

It really depends on the program and mostly if the player is truly at two way player, but it is not like the MLB National Leagues where pitchers hit, colleges use the DH rule, I would think in most cases the pitchers have longer bat in their hands (fungo bats).

quote:

Originally posted by VikramSports:

It appears to me that there may be a minor typo….. “These one-sided limits tell us that although less weight tends to produce (slightly) lower bat speeds,…”.

Is it accurate to say that less weight (more precisely less MOI) tends to produce higher bat speed…”?

Yes, that was a typo. Your statment is of course correct. What I actually meant to say was "lower ball speed" which tends to be true for both lower weight and MOI, and I have edited my post to say "ball speed".

Some great posts - especially from 3fingered glove! I have a friend who bought his son a 34" bat last year and spent a lot of time trying to explain what has been discussed here - but people have their own opinions and it took about 20 ground balls in a row for him to start to listen!

I wanted to add that plate coverage is of course affected by how close a batter stands in the batters box to the plate. I know some coaches that tell the kids they want their manhood "over the black" (edge of home plate). If you do this, a 32" bat will cover the outside strike. If you get pitched an inside fastball to try and jam you, a batter with a compact explosive swing can hit that pitch out in front of the plate and drive it out of the park. Too far inside and the batter gets hit - this is why Barry Bonds wore that protective arm sleeve.

A kid with a 34" bat will need to stand away from the plate so the barrel of the bat at contact will be over the plate. A smart pitcher will pitch him inside and jam him. The only way he would be able to get out in front of the pitch would be to "cheat" and swing early. So after fouling off a couple of inside fastballs he gets a CU or curve as he is now swinging earlier than before... It is hard enough to hit off good pitching as it is - swinging a 34" is a handicap!

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Does anybody know what size bats were being swung in college 5 or 10 or 15 years ago? Just curious to see if there has been any change and why. I cannot let this go.

NCAA introduced requirements for -3 bats with 2-5/8 inch barrel and initial BESR certification in 1999. NFHS accepted the same rule in 2000. Since then NCAA introduced lower Moment of Inertia requirement and later different way to test and calculate BESR. Latest revision was published on 8 October 2008.


Prior to 1999, the bats used by high school and college kids were mainly 2-3/4” barrel and -5. While working as a Director of R&D at a major bat manufacturing company, we did not make -3 bats. NCAA had two concerns, which were not shared by many. These concerns included: (a) The 2-3/4” barrel bats with -5 drop were too hot and could cause injury to the pitcher, and (b) The game had become too offensive due to many HRs and did not represent regular ballgame. I was one of the team members who participated in the initial BESR test protocol development under the lead of UMass Lowell.


Those days some of the popular bats included Omaha, Air Attack I and II, Z-core etc. For these bats, High-end Alloy used up to 1995 was Alcoa’s CU31 which was a modification of aerospace alloy 7050. In 1995, Alcoa introduced C405 which was a modification of aerospace alloy 7055 and had higher strength than 7050. This allowed barrel walls to be thinner and bat to be hotter. In 1998 or 1999, small amount of Scandium was added to the 7055 or C405. There were different names Sc500, C555, Sc 777, etc. After NCAA’s 1999 BESR certification requirements, all bats had to be 2-5/8”, and -3 drop or heavier without grip.


Just my two cents.


Regards,
Jay

Jay,

just curious as to which bats on the market do you like? do you think there is that much difference in the flex versus non flex handles? two pice vs. one piece?comp vs aluminum? you seem to be pretty knowledgable any one else feel free to chime in. aslo easton has new bat with comp handle with flex but aluminum barrel what is the purpose of that change?

Very interesting topic. Based on the standard manufacturer's bat sizing charts, I was going to have my HS freshman son (5'9" 135 lbs) move up from a 32" to a 33", but it sounds like he might want to stick with the 32" as long as he can get plate coverage. My question is, if he chokes up an inch on a 33" is the MOI similar to swinging a 32"?

quote:

I know some coaches that tell the kids they want their manhood "over the black" (edge of home plate).

Why do coaches do that? They are just setting the batter up for inside fastballs. It is a no brainer for the pitcher/catcher. If the kid doesn't have a good fastball I guess it should work, but it usually just produces a jam shot or a long foul ball. Plus if the kid isn't confortable in the box it will affect his swing and approach IMO.

On the one piece vs. two piece we have always said the two piece gives more pop and less durablity. Is that just another myth?

Well let me add my two cents to this discussion. My son swung a 34-31 in high school. He still swings it in college as most of his team mates do and the rest swing 33-30. He went to a 34-31 because he got pitched away a ton and the hs strike zone is very big. He got up on the plate and they still pitched him away. When they came inside over the plate "which was very rare" he cranked it. His first year swinging a 34-31 was his soph year in hs. He broke the single season hr record for our school and hit .554 with 44 hits 44 rbis 11 hr's. His jr year he went on to hit around the same average and stats. He ended up his career hits leader , rbi leader , and hr leader in our schools history. Using a 34-31 bat.

Now did the bat cause that or the guy swinging the bat? I like to think it was the guy swinging it. He ended up hitting more hr's backside for his career than he did pullside. Because he got pitched away so much and the extra length allowed him to barrell pitches easier.

Its not the bat its the guy swinging the bat. If you are strong enough to swing the bigger bat and it does not hinder your ability to get it through the zone then go for it. If you would rather swing a lighter bat then fine. This thread is full of myths about the 34-31 bat. Many of my sons college team mates swing it. Many hs players around here swing it. They have no trouble getting around on the fastball inside. Thats not the pitch that gets good hitters out. Now if you invent a bat that teaches guys how to hit the 87 mph slider behind the mid 90's fastball let me know cause I want some of them.

Coach May - your son sounds like quite a stud! I was commenting on younger/weaker players. Yes, there are some that can handle a big stick out there!

I hope I didnt come off as a bragger. There are many good players out there. I have always been big on players swinging a bat that they can handle. Swinging a bat that you can not handle is simply not the thing to do. Again please forgive me if I came across as one of those people bragging about their kid. He would kill me if he knew I posted this stuff anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
Jay,

just curious as to which bats on the market do you like? do you think there is that much difference in the flex versus non flex handles? two pice vs. one piece?comp vs aluminum? you seem to be pretty knowledgable any one else feel free to chime in. aslo easton has new bat with comp handle with flex but aluminum barrel what is the purpose of that change?

Let me try to answer your questions in as unbiased way as possible. For the full disclosure purpose, I may still be a little biased as the other bat companies are competitors. I can confidently say that all the major bat companies are very good. Each one has a unique niche. For this discussion, I will focus only on high-school / college -3 bats.

(Q1) Which bats on the market do you like?
(A1) Not counting my brand, I like the high-end high bats of Louisville and DeMarini.

(Q2) Do you think there is that much difference in the flex versus non flex handles?
(A2) I think that there is some difference between these two designs keeping everything else the same. This difference will be small for a weaker player and will be more for a stronger player. Designers form the different companies have different points of view. I like stiff handle as I believe that the energy transfer from bat to the ball is more efficient. Others may disagree.

(Q3) Two piece vs. one piece?
(A3) I like one piece and two piece with non-flexing handle (Half and Half). I do not like a two piece where handle can flex with respect to barrel because of the same reason as in A2

(Q4) Comp vs aluminum?
(A4) This is tricky. I like aluminum better mainly because I have more experience with aluminum than composites. With composites, the advantage is that it can be designed in such a way that the sweetspot can be increased, performance can be increased some and MOI can be controlled. But there is a maximum limit to the performance of the bat hence even composites will have limits imposed. Additionally, durability is reduced as performance is increased. The composite bats tend to be more expensive than aluminum bats. I do not have the latest durability information related to the -3 composite adult baseball bat. In the slowpitch and fastpitch softball, ASA has concluded that the composite bats will become hotter after some use as some of the plies become delaminated and the effective barrel wall reduces. Sorry for the wordy answer but I will let you draw the conclusion.

(Q5) Aslo Easton has new bat with comp handle with flex but aluminum barrel what is the purpose of that change?
(A5) I am assuming that it is their latest innovation. I have a similar bat with composite stiff handle and strong aluminum barrel. It was tested for BESR but it exceeded the BESR limit. I am in the process of tuning it down.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Jay

Jay,

sent you a PM thanks for the response

Coach May I really dont know why theres anything wrong with people talking about thier own kids once in a while. Your son is obviously a very good player, I personally like to know about posters kids, where they ent to HS, where they are in college and how their doing.

I second that fanofthegame. I absolutely love hearing the stories on this site. The success stories, the come back from adversity stories, the "it's time to move on" stories.

All of them. I learn a lot from all of them. But I love the success stories the most. It shows that it is possible, despite incredible odds, to achieve the goals that our kids have. I love'em.

I think it's different for every player. Personally I don't remember a whole lot of selection of bat weights when I was young. You swung what you could get.

One thing I have learned...bat weight and size does not go hand in hand with height / weight / age. That's a rough guideline at best. I coach a 12U "travel" (In quotes, because all of our stuff is within an hour's drive except one tourney a year). Five of these guys are on my LL All Star team. I've got some good size boys, but I also have a few small guys as well.

The lightest bat being used on the team is a 31/23 -8.

My lead off hitter is 12U, maybe 4'9" and 95lbs dripping wet, and he swings a 31/26. Most of my guys swing a -5, a couple will go to their -3 bats on slower pitching.

I have learned that kids using their body to generate their power and speed with the bat always seem to be able to swing a heavier bat without any problem.

I do know I've watched many kids struggle with going to the big field after swinging Featherweight -12 (or more) LL bats...because that's all they swing. No heavier wood bat or other for BP.

Just my 2 cents YMMV