Can someone tell me what they mean when everyone tells me my FB is heavy with good movement?
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My son throws a heavy fastball. This means that it moves downwards quicker than a normal fastball. "Sinkerball" pitchers are said to have a "heavy fastball" meaning that it maintains normal velocity but sinks more than usual. Sinkerball pitchers usually throw side-arm to low three quarters and in doing so not as much top reverse spin is put on the ball keeping it aloft, instead more of a sideways spin is put on the pitch. Because the pitch can't maintain as much loft with the backspin it will sink quicker than usual and be said to be "heavy".
Sinkerball pitchers who throw from a side to 3/4 angle will have better movement on their pitches. Not only will they be heavy (sink) they will usually run in on the batters hand (righty on righty) because of the more sideways spin they can impart on the ball. That is where you get a "heavy fastball" with good movement.
What is yor release? Is it sidearm, low 3/4, high 3/4 or more over the top? I suspect you throw from a low 3/4 arm slot in order to have a heavy moving fastball.
Sinkerball pitchers who throw from a side to 3/4 angle will have better movement on their pitches. Not only will they be heavy (sink) they will usually run in on the batters hand (righty on righty) because of the more sideways spin they can impart on the ball. That is where you get a "heavy fastball" with good movement.
What is yor release? Is it sidearm, low 3/4, high 3/4 or more over the top? I suspect you throw from a low 3/4 arm slot in order to have a heavy moving fastball.
Heavy fastball = good velocity
I guess you would say I have a high 3/4 to over the top slot, mid 80s. The phrase, Heavy fastball was a new one to me. Thanks that puts some light on it.
"Heavy" does not mean good velocity (though the two frequently go together). It also does not necessarily refer to a sinker baller. Typically it means that the ball seems to hit the bat with a thud, which is usually the result of late movement, maybe just an inch or two, either down or down and away. The batter thinks he has the sweet spot lined up but when he makes contact it feels like he hit a brick, because it hits the end of the bat or gets driven into the ground.
lefty,
More than likely you put some sideways spin on the ball or a "gyro" spin on the ball at release. Midlo Dad is correct in that when a batter hits it, it will feel like a thud or like he is hitting a lead ball. That is due primarily to the sinking action it has. Because the sinkerball pitch will drop lower than normal, a hitter will not usually make good contact with it.
Ask your catcher to see what kind of spin the ball has. It may have a natural "gyro-ball" rotation on it. This means that the ball is rifeling (spinning like a thrown football). If the thrown gyro gets off center in its spin toward the cathcer it will have some very unpredictable late movement on it besides the sinkerball action it already has.
The natural gyro spin is caused by the index finger on release. If the forearm starts to naturally turn before the release of the ball (palm turns outwards from body) then the last action the hand will impart on the ball is to cause it to spin like athrown football. Because the last force on the fastball thrown like this is not entirely in back of the baseball pushing it forwards, the pitch will be ever so slightly slower coming out of the hand. The tradeoff is though that it will lose less velocity as it travels to home plate because it is not fighting the air as much causing it to slow down.
About 1 of every three fastballs my son throws is a gyroball (sinkerball pitch). It will seem to not be thrown as fast when it leaves his hand but then when it approaches and is caught it is traveling as fast or faster than the normal fastball. It almost appears as if it is a mini curveball sometimes because the spin gets off center and starts to spin like a curveball right at the last. Sometimes it is very hard to catch. He has had catchers tell him they don't know what to expect beacuse they move erratically right at the last.
Check and see if the ball is rifeling. If it is do not worry about injury at all because that is the normal reaction of the arm as it starts to react to the thrown joint.
More than likely you put some sideways spin on the ball or a "gyro" spin on the ball at release. Midlo Dad is correct in that when a batter hits it, it will feel like a thud or like he is hitting a lead ball. That is due primarily to the sinking action it has. Because the sinkerball pitch will drop lower than normal, a hitter will not usually make good contact with it.
Ask your catcher to see what kind of spin the ball has. It may have a natural "gyro-ball" rotation on it. This means that the ball is rifeling (spinning like a thrown football). If the thrown gyro gets off center in its spin toward the cathcer it will have some very unpredictable late movement on it besides the sinkerball action it already has.
The natural gyro spin is caused by the index finger on release. If the forearm starts to naturally turn before the release of the ball (palm turns outwards from body) then the last action the hand will impart on the ball is to cause it to spin like athrown football. Because the last force on the fastball thrown like this is not entirely in back of the baseball pushing it forwards, the pitch will be ever so slightly slower coming out of the hand. The tradeoff is though that it will lose less velocity as it travels to home plate because it is not fighting the air as much causing it to slow down.
About 1 of every three fastballs my son throws is a gyroball (sinkerball pitch). It will seem to not be thrown as fast when it leaves his hand but then when it approaches and is caught it is traveling as fast or faster than the normal fastball. It almost appears as if it is a mini curveball sometimes because the spin gets off center and starts to spin like a curveball right at the last. Sometimes it is very hard to catch. He has had catchers tell him they don't know what to expect beacuse they move erratically right at the last.
Check and see if the ball is rifeling. If it is do not worry about injury at all because that is the normal reaction of the arm as it starts to react to the thrown joint.
Midlo is right on this one. The heavy fastball feels heavier when it hits the glove or bat. I think kids that learn to throw a straight rotation when they are really young tend to have this quality. Later in your career, of course, straight rotation isnt going to be too great for your pitching career (or movement) but for the beginners this skill is important. Kids need to learn how to 4 seam grip properly and then pronate propertly upon release to get the straight rotation.
Plain and simple-
Heavy fastball= sinkerball
Sinkerball= ball lacking reverse rotation
There is no way a fastball can be truly classified as being a "heavy fastball" if it is thrown "over the top" with a reverse rotation. It would just be a straight fastball that if left up gets creamed over the centerfield wall every time.
Heavy fastball= sinkerball
Sinkerball= ball lacking reverse rotation
There is no way a fastball can be truly classified as being a "heavy fastball" if it is thrown "over the top" with a reverse rotation. It would just be a straight fastball that if left up gets creamed over the centerfield wall every time.
Be careful there is a lot of bad advice in this thread.
Milodad has it right. "Heavy" fastballs are considered balls with late movement, which is why catchers are telling you they are "heavy". Fastball movement comes from spin regardless of arm slot.
Milodad has it right. "Heavy" fastballs are considered balls with late movement, which is why catchers are telling you they are "heavy". Fastball movement comes from spin regardless of arm slot.
Heavy FB has nothing to do with a sinkerball. Midlo is correct.
The downward action may create a heavy FB but it is not necessary.
The downward action may create a heavy FB but it is not necessary.
I am gonna disagree that heavy fastballs have nothing to do with sinkerball fastballs. They have everything to do with a sinkerball pitch. A sinkerball pitch is one that sinks in the strike zone due primarily to a lack of reverse spin keeping it aloft. Sure, one doesn't have to throw sidearm or 3/4 to be a sinkerball pitcher, it is that they just usually naturally throw sinkerballs because they do not impart as much reverse spin to keep it aloft, they put more of a side spin or even a gyro spin on the ball.
In order for a fastball to have movement regardless of what slot a pitcher throws from, he must be able to be able to cause the ball to spin as it approaches the plate, in an off center spin or sideways spin. An over the top pitcher can get this through pressure or finger placement. He can also achieve this naturally if he is pronating his arm early and causing the fastball to gyro through the air causing it to drop and eventually break as the spin gets off center.
Because of the late downward movement associated with a hard throwing sinkerballer, the ball will tend to act like a harder thrown pitch because it is taking more of a downward angle at the plate while still maintaining good velocity.
The reason I believe they sting the catchers hand is because the late movement is harder to compensate for and the catcher doesn't or can't move the glove quick enough to catch the ball in the pocket and instead ends up catching it with more of the hand or finger area of the mit. I have caught a lot of pitches for my son and almost everytime he throws that sinker (unkowingly) it hurts my hand because i can't get the glove low enogh to catch it in the pocket area.
Here is what Rob Neyer had to say in an interview about the heavy fastball-
RSN: What is a "heavy" fastball?
RN: It’s a fastball with a lot of spin, usually a sinking sort of fastball. They sting the catcher’s hand, and the batters tend to beat them into the ground. It’s not a term you hear much any more, but it was popular from the 1930s through (at least) the ‘60s.
In order for a fastball to have movement regardless of what slot a pitcher throws from, he must be able to be able to cause the ball to spin as it approaches the plate, in an off center spin or sideways spin. An over the top pitcher can get this through pressure or finger placement. He can also achieve this naturally if he is pronating his arm early and causing the fastball to gyro through the air causing it to drop and eventually break as the spin gets off center.
Because of the late downward movement associated with a hard throwing sinkerballer, the ball will tend to act like a harder thrown pitch because it is taking more of a downward angle at the plate while still maintaining good velocity.
The reason I believe they sting the catchers hand is because the late movement is harder to compensate for and the catcher doesn't or can't move the glove quick enough to catch the ball in the pocket and instead ends up catching it with more of the hand or finger area of the mit. I have caught a lot of pitches for my son and almost everytime he throws that sinker (unkowingly) it hurts my hand because i can't get the glove low enogh to catch it in the pocket area.
Here is what Rob Neyer had to say in an interview about the heavy fastball-
RSN: What is a "heavy" fastball?
RN: It’s a fastball with a lot of spin, usually a sinking sort of fastball. They sting the catcher’s hand, and the batters tend to beat them into the ground. It’s not a term you hear much any more, but it was popular from the 1930s through (at least) the ‘60s.
I will say it again...the downward action may create a heavy FB but it is not necessary.
Term "heavy fastball" comes from late movement or sink as had been said here by Midlo and others. As a catcher I have seen a few and it moved enough to make you flinch and often catch the ball in a not so pleasant part of the mitt. It often felt as heavy as it looked. I have never viewed the term as arm slot or spin specific.
There are going to be differences in "action" on the ball from pitcher to pitcher just based on their genetics, their mechanics, etc. As just one example, with some pitchers the length difference between the index and middle fingers is greater than with others. That affects which finger leaves the ball last and thus, whether there is a little more gyro/"English" effect on the ball.
This can be done with pure 4-seam, straight-up, backward spin rotation. If you don't think so, you need to get around more, maybe catch bullpens for a lot of different guys to see how two seemingly similar pitchers will have the ball move very differently.
Coachric, I agree with your description of a "heavy fastball" from a catcher's perspective. It feels "heavy" because so often the catcher has difficulty centering the ball in the pocket due to late movement. Often it is the cause of sore thumbs, and maybe some passed balls.
This can be done with pure 4-seam, straight-up, backward spin rotation. If you don't think so, you need to get around more, maybe catch bullpens for a lot of different guys to see how two seemingly similar pitchers will have the ball move very differently.
Coachric, I agree with your description of a "heavy fastball" from a catcher's perspective. It feels "heavy" because so often the catcher has difficulty centering the ball in the pocket due to late movement. Often it is the cause of sore thumbs, and maybe some passed balls.
I think we might be saying the same thing in just different ways. I have had many a sore thumb trying to react quick enough to the late movement and not quite getting the mit positioned correctly in time. One time I just threw the dang mit and ran around in circles cussing cause I thought it broke my thumb! And yes sir, it seems as heavy as a lead ball at those times.
I had one kid on the team who threw really hard but it was just straight and was easy to catch. It never felt like he was throwing very hard even though he was- it was just too easy to gauge the trajectory of the ball and catch it every time in the pocket.
I had one kid on the team who threw really hard but it was just straight and was easy to catch. It never felt like he was throwing very hard even though he was- it was just too easy to gauge the trajectory of the ball and catch it every time in the pocket.
I think the only thing no one has said to clarify this is that a pitch can move horizontially left or right with late movement and be a "heavy" pitch. My son throws right handed with a low 3/4 delivery with a fastball that runs in on a righty. It is often difficult to catch in the pocket. When he keeps it down, it is very difficult to hit solid. Often hit off the handle. Anyway, what I am saying is as redbird implied, the ball does not necessarily have to drop to be heavy, any movement that causes the catcher to catch the ball somewhere other than the pocket, or the batter to miss the sweet spot can be considered heavy.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
. A sinkerball pitch is one that sinks in the strike zone due primarily to a lack of reverse spin keeping it aloft.
RSN: What is a "heavy" fastball?
RN: It’s a fastball with a lot of spin, usually a sinking sort of fastball. They sting the catcher’s hand, and the batters tend to beat them into the ground. It’s not a term you hear much any more, but it was popular from the 1930s through (at least) the ‘60s.
HUH? GBM you are frankly wrong about lack of spin on a "sinkerball" and you even contradict yourself in your own post. Get your facts straight before offering advice.
BOF,
I don't get how what you quoted me as saying is contradictory?
I will explain- A sinkerball sinks because it does not spin like a normal 4 seam fastball with backwards rotation keeping it aloft. A normal 4 seam fastball acts the opposite of a curveball in that the rotations are exactly opposite.
A sinkerball can and should still have a lot of spin, just that the rotation is different than a normal 4 seam fastball thrown over the top. If a 4 seam fastball is thrown from a lower arm angle it will usually be more of a sinkerball pitch because the rotational spin put on the ball will not keep it aloft as much. Because of the more sideways spin on the ball, it will drop more than one thrown over the top at the same velocity- thus a "sinkerball". Most sinkerball pitchers throw from a sidearm to 3/4 arm slot because it is easier to impart a spin that will not keep it aloft.
You should note that I never said that a sinkerball lacks spin, it just lacks the spin in the direction conducive to keeping it aloft (backwards rotation from a curveball).
My facts are the straight truth.
I don't get how what you quoted me as saying is contradictory?
I will explain- A sinkerball sinks because it does not spin like a normal 4 seam fastball with backwards rotation keeping it aloft. A normal 4 seam fastball acts the opposite of a curveball in that the rotations are exactly opposite.
A sinkerball can and should still have a lot of spin, just that the rotation is different than a normal 4 seam fastball thrown over the top. If a 4 seam fastball is thrown from a lower arm angle it will usually be more of a sinkerball pitch because the rotational spin put on the ball will not keep it aloft as much. Because of the more sideways spin on the ball, it will drop more than one thrown over the top at the same velocity- thus a "sinkerball". Most sinkerball pitchers throw from a sidearm to 3/4 arm slot because it is easier to impart a spin that will not keep it aloft.
You should note that I never said that a sinkerball lacks spin, it just lacks the spin in the direction conducive to keeping it aloft (backwards rotation from a curveball).
My facts are the straight truth.
Midlo, you are only the second person that I know to mention the relationship between index, and middle finger. The first time my son ever went to a pitching instructor I heard him remark, after playing catch, that he threw a, "heavy" fastball. After the catch session he looked at his hands and said, "see, your middle finger is relatively longer than most folks". His 4 seam moves as much, or more than his 2 seam. And, myself being a lefty, and son being a righty, I have had many a strained right thumb.
IMO The Split Finger fastball is one of the “heaviest” pitches. It has somewhat of a tumbling action rather than lots of spin.
Typically the “heavy” fastball is not something you see at the very highest velocities. Not sure there has ever been an upper 90s heavy fastball. At the same time, the heavy fastball seems to not lose as much velocity from release to the plate. Pitcher A throws 90 and it is 83 at the plate… Pitcher B throws 90 and it is 84 at the plate. Pitcher B has the heavier fastball.
I don’t know the physics behind all this. I have noticed that most players who throw heavy balls seem to be big guys. Not sure what that means. But if you took two important ingredients (arm speed and leverage) my “guess” is the heavy ball is caused more by leverage than arm speed.
Anyway, the best way to find out if a fastball is heavy? Ask the guy catching it, he will know for sure! Everyone who has played understands that some people throw a heavier ball than others, not just pitchers either. The ball actually feels heavier, even when caught in the right spot.
Typically the “heavy” fastball is not something you see at the very highest velocities. Not sure there has ever been an upper 90s heavy fastball. At the same time, the heavy fastball seems to not lose as much velocity from release to the plate. Pitcher A throws 90 and it is 83 at the plate… Pitcher B throws 90 and it is 84 at the plate. Pitcher B has the heavier fastball.
I don’t know the physics behind all this. I have noticed that most players who throw heavy balls seem to be big guys. Not sure what that means. But if you took two important ingredients (arm speed and leverage) my “guess” is the heavy ball is caused more by leverage than arm speed.
Anyway, the best way to find out if a fastball is heavy? Ask the guy catching it, he will know for sure! Everyone who has played understands that some people throw a heavier ball than others, not just pitchers either. The ball actually feels heavier, even when caught in the right spot.
So in other words.....if it feels heavy when you caught it, then it must have had a higher velocity when it was thrown (and subsequently higher velocity when it was caught).
My concept of this is that it's related to the velocity of the throw. That's where I'm coming from.
Just like if a bullet is shot from a gun, it can knock you over when it hits you. Very small object weight wise, but containing tons of energy because of it's velocity.
Doesn't physics dictate that the higher the velocity an object travels, the more mass that it has ("relativistic" mass)? Or something like that.
Well, anyways...to me...heavy fastball = high velocity. For me...it fits. If you guys don't like it....don't bother me.
My concept of this is that it's related to the velocity of the throw. That's where I'm coming from.
Just like if a bullet is shot from a gun, it can knock you over when it hits you. Very small object weight wise, but containing tons of energy because of it's velocity.
Doesn't physics dictate that the higher the velocity an object travels, the more mass that it has ("relativistic" mass)? Or something like that.
Well, anyways...to me...heavy fastball = high velocity. For me...it fits. If you guys don't like it....don't bother me.
IMO The Split Finger fastball is one of the “heaviest” pitches. It has somewhat of a tumbling action rather than lots of spin.
Makes me wonder if the less spin on the ball the heavier it feels to the receiver. If it were possible to throw a knuckleball 90 mph would it be heavier than a normal fastball?
No scientist here but... The more a ball spins it has somewhat glancing impact on the glove, just as it does when a curve ball hits the ground or an outfield 4 seam throw hits the ground. Without spin the ball would have more of a driving impact on the glove.
I’m sure all the engineers who post here will shoot holes in that theory.
All I know is we see lots of high velocity pitchers who do not seem to throw a heavy fastball. And we see others who do seem to throw a heavy fastball. Whether that is caused by a certain rotation, lack of rotation, movement, velocity or whatever, catchers out there would say that the heaviest fastball isn’t always the one with the most velocity or even the one with the most movement. It’s the one that feels the heaviest and I would agree that the heavy fastball does seem to sink. However, all sinkers are not necessarily heavy.
This is confusing!
Makes me wonder if the less spin on the ball the heavier it feels to the receiver. If it were possible to throw a knuckleball 90 mph would it be heavier than a normal fastball?
No scientist here but... The more a ball spins it has somewhat glancing impact on the glove, just as it does when a curve ball hits the ground or an outfield 4 seam throw hits the ground. Without spin the ball would have more of a driving impact on the glove.
I’m sure all the engineers who post here will shoot holes in that theory.
All I know is we see lots of high velocity pitchers who do not seem to throw a heavy fastball. And we see others who do seem to throw a heavy fastball. Whether that is caused by a certain rotation, lack of rotation, movement, velocity or whatever, catchers out there would say that the heaviest fastball isn’t always the one with the most velocity or even the one with the most movement. It’s the one that feels the heaviest and I would agree that the heavy fastball does seem to sink. However, all sinkers are not necessarily heavy.
This is confusing!
Movement has everything to do with a heavy ball. Velocity is not always present in a heavy ball, but movement is. When catching a ball you generally catch it where your thumb and first finger come together. Not a lot is felt at this spot. This is not to say you catch the ball out in the web, but rather in the pocket. With a heavy ball there is late movement, typically tailing action with a little down movement. This causes the catcher to catch the ball a little more in the palm, giving it a "heavy" feel to it. It also makes a hitter hit the ball away from the sweet spot enough to prevent solid contact.
RobV,
Faster does not equal "heavier".
Anyone who's ever played baseball has (hopefully) at one time or another experienced that joyous feeling of hitting the ball just right, on the sweet spot. The swing feels smooth and the ball just jumps. There is no bat vibration and it just feels great!
A "heavy" fastball's late movement keeps you from getting that feeling by keeping you from lining up the sweet spot. So you get that "thud" feeling, the buzz/vibration, or maybe even a shafted bat. You feel like you swung and hit a flying brick.
Faster does not equal "heavier".
Anyone who's ever played baseball has (hopefully) at one time or another experienced that joyous feeling of hitting the ball just right, on the sweet spot. The swing feels smooth and the ball just jumps. There is no bat vibration and it just feels great!
A "heavy" fastball's late movement keeps you from getting that feeling by keeping you from lining up the sweet spot. So you get that "thud" feeling, the buzz/vibration, or maybe even a shafted bat. You feel like you swung and hit a flying brick.
People have told me i have a heavy fastball. The reason they told me it was heavy was because at about half-way to the plate the baseball seems to explode into the glove. When this happens my fastball moves in toward a right handed hitter.
First let me say thanks for all your input. So is it safe to say that heavier is not a bad thing, and it not any better than a pitch that is not a heavy pitch?
i would actually say that a heavy fastball is better than a non heavy one. a heavy fastball induces more ground balls and the ball is not hit as far, which results in the ball staying inside the park.
Then again this is just my opinion.
Then again this is just my opinion.
Yes, I would say a heavy fastball is better. Not necessarily faster, but better. Because of the late movement, the batter has less of a chance of hitting the ball off the sweet part of the bat.
Midlodad is correct on all points.
From Scout.com, " The two seam pitch fastball is also known as a sinker, sinking, or heavy fastball. It has good velocity but takes a dip in the end. This pitch is released the same way as a 4 seam, but with the middle and ring finger placed along the two seams and the pitch does not run or slide as much as the 4 seam. This pitch get's it's name "heavy fastball" because if a batter makes contact with the ball he feels like he is hitting a shot put".
From Scout.com, " The two seam pitch fastball is also known as a sinker, sinking, or heavy fastball. It has good velocity but takes a dip in the end. This pitch is released the same way as a 4 seam, but with the middle and ring finger placed along the two seams and the pitch does not run or slide as much as the 4 seam. This pitch get's it's name "heavy fastball" because if a batter makes contact with the ball he feels like he is hitting a shot put".
I just love this website!
Son was recently said to throw a heavy ball. We knew what happened when the ball was hit into play - but didn't know what he was doing.
Now we know - Thanks, two years later!
Son was recently said to throw a heavy ball. We knew what happened when the ball was hit into play - but didn't know what he was doing.
Now we know - Thanks, two years later!
Lot's of different ways of interpreting a heavy fastball. Generally speaking I like BOF's and hsballcoach's definitions. Late movement is going to make it tough for a catcher to catch the ball clean making it feel "heavier". Late movement is often going to result in poorer contact for the hitter making the ball feel "heavier".
Sinkerball pitchers tend to throw the "heaviest" fastball but that doesn't mean that a pitcher who throws over the top can't throw a heavy fastball. A pitcher throwing over the top who keeps the ball down will often get poor contact. The ball is coming at a different angle than the catcher is used to so it may also feel heavy to the catcher. I never could throwing over the top but there are also a few pitchers who throw over the top who can get some sideways spin on the ball through their grip or turning their wrist or some other means.
Sinkerball pitchers tend to throw the "heaviest" fastball but that doesn't mean that a pitcher who throws over the top can't throw a heavy fastball. A pitcher throwing over the top who keeps the ball down will often get poor contact. The ball is coming at a different angle than the catcher is used to so it may also feel heavy to the catcher. I never could throwing over the top but there are also a few pitchers who throw over the top who can get some sideways spin on the ball through their grip or turning their wrist or some other means.
Thanks CADad -
Son doesn't pitch over the top - but his pitches have late movement. His arm forms an "L" when he pitches. I should also mention that he is 6"5' now, so he gets a lot of downward angle. He might have 2 pop ups or flys a game, usually everything is on the ground. Choppy kind of hits in the infield.
His coach told him he likes it when he pitches, not as many foul balls in the woods.
It has been interesting watching him mature and become stronger as a pitcher. We feel he is on the right track. This was a new term and it seems to be accurate. I guess it is all good.
Son doesn't pitch over the top - but his pitches have late movement. His arm forms an "L" when he pitches. I should also mention that he is 6"5' now, so he gets a lot of downward angle. He might have 2 pop ups or flys a game, usually everything is on the ground. Choppy kind of hits in the infield.
His coach told him he likes it when he pitches, not as many foul balls in the woods.
It has been interesting watching him mature and become stronger as a pitcher. We feel he is on the right track. This was a new term and it seems to be accurate. I guess it is all good.
