Henrico considering stiffer grades for athletes

Personally, I've always thought standards should be higher. My parents were similar to yours PIS...A's were the expectation not the hope. B's needed explanation and don't bring home a C.

I don't think high school is particularly difficult although I can certainly understand that there are mitigating circumstances for many students.

The one argument opposed to this that I've heard is that there are students who would blow off school completely without the carrot of athletics. I suppose that's true in some cases but I don't really know how that can be properly addressed and I'm not sure a lower academic standard is the solution.

PIS/EH,

Your operative word is "should" pass unanimously, and I'd like to see Chesterfield County step up to the plate on this issue too. My parents were the same way as yours. I had to earn it in the classroom to have the opportunity to play or do anything outside of school. I'll never forget the time I brought home a "C" my freshmen year in high school. It never happened again.

In addition, I think the countys need to adopt a grading system that doesn't put our kids at a disadvantage with respect to college admission. Other counties use the 90-100 is an "A" range while some counties use 94-100 is an "A". Personally, I'd like to see number grades instead of letter grades. Numbers remove all doubt.

I did not read the article, but i feel like i need to comment, i agree with you all about expectations. A little less than half of student populations participate in sports. If you up the expectations to play, it could also help with increasing the schools graduation rate and SOL's and all kind of things. In most schools i know of there is the school rule than there is a program "expectation" anyways.

We've had this very discussion several times among friends. Our county does not have a current minimum GPA to play though I do agree there should be a minimum of a 2.0 with no D's or F's. Currently the HS students can have up to 1 F and still be eligible. The MS principal modified it to no F's to be eligible.

My additional comment is the eligibility standard should apply to ALL extracurricular activities - not just sports.

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My additional comment is the eligibility standard should apply to ALL extracurricular activities - not just sports.

My additional comment is the eligibility standard should apply to ALL extracurricular activities - not just sports.

I absolutely disagree with all of you.

The reality is that for some students, sports are their primary motivation for even showing up at school. Taking that away from the most marginal or challenged students to me is going to have the unintended consequence of fueling dropouts.

I know it is quite common to hear your parents' voices in your head saying, "If you don't get your grades up, you can forget about [fill in the blank with your favorite extra-curricular activities]." But the reality is, the more kids are active in those activities, the more disciplined they often become. Sports participation leads to better grades. Take them away and the grades are most likely to get worse, not better.

I don't see any reason why someone should be able to be in the show choir, the school play, or the chess club just by showing up at school, but for some reason if your chosen activity is a sport you have to meet a different standard.

I truly think that for most kids, low grades are a product of lack of effort. For most kids, high school is not really all that hard, even if they do whine about it all the time.

But for the marginal kids, there are often learning disabilities or social pathologies at work, and kicking those kids when they are down is counterproductive.

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I think the countys need to adopt a grading system that doesn't put our kids at a disadvantage with respect to college admission. Other counties use the 90-100 is an "A" range while some counties use 94-100 is an "A".

I have mixed feelings on the grading scale change proposed for Chesterfield County (from A =94-100
to A = 90-100). We have been told that colleges know what scale the high schools use. If the proposal should pass, students could have a average of 60 and still retain the 2.0 GPA minimum for eligibility. Ug. Looks like Henrico County may be thinking of changing as well.

Agreed that these are minimums, and a quick search showed that other localities (in NC) have a 1.5 GPA minimum! Keewartson's coach has been known to release players from practice/play for bad semester grades until they can get the grades back up. Not sure on the details of what those grades may have been, however.
But as Midlo mentioned, sometimes baseball/football/ s-o-c-c-e-r, etc. is all the incentive some children have to go, and stay, in school.

FoxDad, whether your school or county has a minimum GPA or not, the VHSL does require players to have the minimum of:

1) 2.0 cumulative GPA, or
2) 2.0 from the preceeding semester before tryouts

By these standards, a player could have a 2.0 for the most recent semester and a WAY lower cum. GPA. I would like to think (hope) the coaches chould have some say in whether D's or F's are acceptable.

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keeward posted...We have been told that colleges know what scale the high schools use

keewart,

Do you really believe that? I don't. I think it may be true for some state colleges and universities but what about the kids who want to go to school out of state, Service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc...)or are competing for admission into some very selective schools. Our kids are at a competitive disadvantage with the current policy.

To me it's all in the teacher's decision as to how hard he/she grades.

I think at the end of the day, the typical teacher looks at how many A's, B's, etc. she's given, keeps tabs on how she's marking papers, and then adjusts how many points she takes off for this or that so that in the end, the distribution of letter grades turn out "right".

In other words, I think the grading scale has zero impact on anything. Show me that Chesterfield gives out fewer A's than some other locality and then we'll talk.

I'll guarantee you one thing. They are giving out a far higher percentage of A's today than they were back in my day. Should I claim to have been wronged by the system?

And this says nothing about the growing prevalence of giving out extra grade points for a growing number of course offerings. The valedictorian of my class had a 4.08 cumulative GPA. Today you'd need a 4.98 at that same school to have a shot at that honor.

So tell me, when someone from that school ends up with a 4.3, should someone in some other state that doesn't hand out bonus points like candy cry foul?

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Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

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keeward posted...We have been told that colleges know what scale the high schools use

keewart,

Do you really believe that? I don't. I think it may be true for some state colleges and universities but what about the kids who want to go to school out of state, Service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc...)or are competing for admission into some very selective schools. Our kids are at a competitive disadvantage with the current policy.

I referenced 28-2-1 (Grade Rule) of the VHSL Handbook and it makes no mention of a specific GPA - only mentions having to pass 5 classes (4 if block scheduling).

It's a good idea, but it would require all counties to have an equal grading system. If Chesterfield's grading policy is 94-100 is an A, and 79 is a C, how does that compare to another county?

One county's C+ may be another county's B. Until there's a statewide grading scale in effect, this idea would penalize those taking tougher classes in certain counties.

quote:

Originally posted by FoxDad:

I referenced 28-2-1 (Grade Rule) of the VHSL Handbook and it makes no mention of a specific GPA - only mentions having to pass 5 classes (4 if block scheduling).

Thanks FoxDad, You are correct. When I Googled "VHSL GPA", it pulled up the latest...but VHSL doesn't use GPA anymore, so I got old info. Next time, I will go right to the online Handbook.

And based on the current Grade Rule, in the worst case, a player could pass 5 classes with Ds, get Fs in the other two classes, wind up with a 0.714 GPA for the semester and still play/participate. No wonder counties and high schools are making the grade rules more strict.

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Originally posted by fenwaysouth:

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keeward posted...We have been told that colleges know what scale the high schools use

keewart,

Do you really believe that? I don't. I think it may be true for some state colleges and universities but what about the kids who want to go to school out of state, Service Academies (West Point, Annapolis, etc...)or are competing for admission into some very selective schools. Our kids are at a competitive disadvantage with the current policy.

Fenway, CCPS grading scale is listed on the back of the report cards, but on my copy of son's UNofficial transcript, nothing is listed. The guidance office confirmed today that yes, the grading scale is sent with the original transcripts along with a "profile" of the high school and information on Chesterfield County Schools to colleges.

I agree, this doesn't help when college coaches see son's GPA without all that backup!

Class rank is more important than GPA for all these reasons.

For example, in Chesterfield alone, the GPA distributions from one high school to the next are vastly different, even using the same numeric grading scale. A 3.8 puts you in the top 10% at Manchester, but only the 70th percentile at James River.

This is why admissions offices look at rank as well as GPA. They also still, for the most part, rely on SAT's or ACT's to get an idea of where you really stack up against kids from other schools. And they also study how kids from particular high schools perform once they get to their colleges, so that they have that data to use in future admissions evaluations.

The baseball coach needs to know you're eligible, which is a very low bar indeed. After that, he has to consult admissions, and they have all that data.

Honestly I think all this hoorah about the grading scale is much ado about nothing. It's a human impossibility to get identical treatment across the board, none of the changes proposed would get you there, and all the people whose job it is to evaluate your kid are well aware of the situation and they make it their business to know how to compare the apples to the oranges. To me it all starts to sound like parents making excuses when their kids don't get into the colleges they had hoped for. And in that regard, it's no different from when parents complain about baseball cut decisions or playing time decisions. Waaaaa.

In the meantime, I still think the Henrico proposal is one of those things that sounds good at first blush, but in practice will do some harm and really no good at all.

This isnt going to affect baseball much at all... This is going to affect football and basketball; primarily in the urban communities...

And maybe not right, but basketball may be the only thing keeping some of these people stable or even alive.

If you pass-you pass...

There is plenty of propaganda letting these young people know that if they want to play at the next level - they need the grades... If that isnt enough, then so be it.

Yeah, I sort of agree with you now. Because with a 1.0 gpa that basketball experience will be the highlight of that kids life. He'll tell everybody about that time he hit the game winner. Then ask if they want fries with their order.

Too harsh?

Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com
www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

MidloDad- You offer an interesting point about the minimum GPA & motivation to come to school. Paul Woody had a simliar point in today's RTD. I'm willing to further consider that point.

I have 3 sons that have been or part of Chesterfield County High Schools. Our high school experience has been at opposite ends of the spectrum. At one of our high schools, it isn't going to matter if it is a 1.0 or 2.0 minumum the kids won't care. They will continue to come to class (not make an effort to learn anything) and play sports. IMHO the parents have to play a big role in this situation and motivate their kids. Currently, I like the idea of the 2.0 min GPA because it now (hopefully) forces the parents to get involved. My point is if we (CHesterfield County) keep doing the same thing, we will get the same result. I think we need to expect more from these kids and parents. At our other high school this 2.0 GPA proposal is not a problem IMHO as the kids and parents are sufficiently motivated. Bottom line for me....I just think we aren't expecting more from these kids academically and our school system is becoming an enabler to their lack of motivation. We are demonstrating to them that we don't care. I think that is the wrong message. Sports or any extracircular activity can be that motivation if parents and the school system are behind it.

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Class rank is more important than GPA for all these reasons.

What do you suggest for some of our magnet schools that do not report class rank. All of the sudden, GPA does matter. That is a problem.

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For example, in Chesterfield alone, the GPA distributions from one high school to the next are vastly different, even using the same numeric grading scale. A 3.8 puts you in the top 10% at Manchester, but only the 70th percentile at James River.

Agreed. Apparently the Bell Curve in Chesterfield is a road not a numeric distribution.

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This is why admissions offices look at rank as well as GPA. They also still, for the most part, rely on SAT's or ACT's to get an idea of where you really stack up against kids from other schools. And they also study how kids from particular high schools perform once they get to their colleges, so that they have that data to use in future admissions evaluations.

I'm familiar with these systems. Our students applying out of state can be disadvantaged if the school doesn't have a history of Chesterfield student or read the fine print on our ridiculous grading system. These scatter chart diagrams that Admission folks use can be helpful but sometimes don't tell the whole story about an indiviual situation.

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Honestly I think all this hoorah about the grading scale is much ado about nothing. It's a human impossibility to get identical treatment across the board, none of the changes proposed would get you there, and all the people whose job it is to evaluate your kid are well aware of the situation and they make it their business to know how to compare the apples to the oranges. To me it all starts to sound like parents making excuses when their kids don't get into the colleges they had hoped for. And in that regard, it's no different from when parents complain about baseball cut decisions or playing time decisions. Waaaaa.

I agree to an extent. In any subjective system such as a grading systems and baseball evaluations you are going to have discrepencies. However, if you know there is something you can do to be competitive with others, wouldn't you do it? Some of our kids are at a competitive disadvantage in some cases especially out of state students. Why are we making this system harder than it has to be? Whether you want to chalk this up to helicopter parents or whatever I don't care. Chesterfield has some work to do to straighten out its grading system internally.

I for one dont think it is the job of society to determine what makes someone or happy or successful. Going to college is not for everyone. getting a high school diploma and passing the required classes should be acceptable for a kid to participate on the teams.

My daughter finished with a 4.3 and my son is A/B; that's a result of our values and goals. I get this is imprtant if he wants to play at the next level; but you can't impart values and goals on people who don't embrace them. Doesn't mean they shouldn't play sports if they keep their nose clean. Maybe they want to be an auto mechanic or will be an artist. What's with the punishment angle and thinking everyone is going to college?

Thinking already too many laws in this world... and an erosion of freedoms.

Apparently Henrico is now looking at the 10-point scale as well. 

 

So, just as they are pretending to raise the bar for athletics participation, they're going to go the other way by making it easier to get higher letter grades.  And don't kid yourselves, that's what this is all about -- whining that they are at some sort of unfair disadvantage because someone somewhere else is allegedly getting a better GPA out of the same performance.  When the results, in terms of collegiate acceptance rates, clearly prove that this is a fiction conjured up by the prevalence of helicopter parenting.

 

FYI, Chesterfield has completed a study (in house, not yet publicized to my knowledge) that demonstrates that they give out a percentage of A grades comparable to what goes on in jurisdictions with 10-point scales.  While this would seem to support my earlier point that teachers tend to adjust their numeric scoring to fit the scale, the whiners here soldier on, not just in Chesterfield but now across the river as well.

 

Meanwhile, no one is doing anything to address the grading disparities from one school to the next even within the same county.  At Cosby, 75% of the student body has a GPA of 3.0 or higher.  Meanwhile, at L.C. Bird, only 25% of the students have a 3.0 or higher.  I realize Cosby serves a wealthier demographic, but c'mon people, they aren't genetically superior.

 

The very real problem this fosters is that you have kids with what they and their parents think are decent GPA's, who are really only being fooled, or fooling themselves.  When the PSAT and SAT scores come in, you find out just who is learning and who is not.  And we're seeing more and more kids with presentable GPA's whose test scores are abysmal. 

 

How many times are we now hearing about kids who are "just not good test takers"?  I've always wondered how come they can't take the SAT but they can do OK on a high school test. 

 

Occam's razor would tell you that the problem to be dealt with is grade inflation, not kids getting slighted by tough grading.

When a student gets a 92 for a final grade and it is scored as a 3.0 instead of a 3.7, it deffinately matters to final GPA and needs to be addressed.  Taking the "A" down to a 90 means your scoring a 92 as an A-(3.7) vicea B (3.0).  Having finished the college tours last year and discussing GPA's with the administration, your fooling youself if you think it doesn't have an impact.  Your not reducing the difficulty required to get a 4.0.  Your allowing the 3.3 and 3.7 to exist.  I also feel that stating an individual who can be taught bunt coverage, read pick-off moves, situational hitting, learn third base signs and all other things required to be a high school baseball player, can't achieve a minimum GPA, is a little unrealistic.

Back to the original topic: Our district requires 1.500 for baseball as well as other extracurricular sports / activities. By the way –  we are on the 90 / 80 / 70 system?  So we are not talking about F being 69, that’s just one point away from being a C.   I think it’s disgraceful, especially when you have kids who can’t maintain academic eligibility.  What is this teaching them? 

 

Yet several of these kids are going gung ho / all out for sports activities trying to live the dream.  99.99% won’t go to the next level, yet mom and dads are actively supporting this?

What has this society come to?

 

If the kid has enough dedication to practice and work out everyday then he has the ability to sit down and STUDY!  Being lazy in school only leads to dependency on society verses being productive.

 

So that was my rant but here is my solution:

 

1 – NCAA raise minimum standards to 2.5 for all athletes and High School needs to be the same.  This will put more emphasis on the student athletes who will succeed verses just an athlete that may help coach win but won’t know if he will make grade each semester.  Or atheltes going to college for four years to play a sport and never graduate.

 

2 – Colleges need to lower their tuition so that you don’t need a sports scholarship to go there.  Change the paradigm of requiring a scholarship to attend college.

 

3 – Parents need to set expectations – what happens ‘after’ their sports career is done?  What’s NEXT? If the answer is IDK then tell them to hit the books!

 

When I see academically inelegible HS players playing on HIGH DOLLAR Travel and Select Teams I blame the parents first and the kid second!  There are NO EXCUSES for that!

The high school my kids attended held athletes to a higher standard than the state. Every Friday coaches received reports on the entire team. Any missing homework or test from that week had to be done by the end of the school day the following Tuesday or the athlete became ineligible to compete until the work was done. 

 

On a personal level my daughter used to joke if I had a bumper sticker it would say ..... My kids better make the honor roll, or else.

From 2013LeftyDad:  "When I see academically inelegible HS players playing on HIGH DOLLAR Travel and Select Teams I blame the parents first and the kid second!"

 

This is an interesting phenomenon and I've seen it, too.  We now require our players to submit their school transcripts and standardized test scores to us for verification.  We put it simply:  You cannot hope to be a college baseball player if you are not on track to be a college STUDENT. 

 

Unfortunately, there seems to be a certain percentage of people who think that they can slide by based on a lot of excuses for academic underperformance.  But the NCAA rules for D1 and D2 eligibility don't allow exceptions based on wheedling. 

 

Still, the kids can go out there legitimately looking for JuCo options, so maybe in some cases there is still justification.  Especially if the love of baseball is the factor motivating the kid to pursue his education at all.  And all the supposed toughness about grade requirements for sports participation seems to overlook that there are definitely cases where an immature young man needs something to motivate him to do anything at all with the books.  And taking away that incentive just makes him an even less motivated student.