Hidden Ball Trick

Nope. Board could use some new blood and people who don't pull rank.

PS: Situation posted by OP isn't bush, in my opinion,  as I stated earlier.

Green Light,

The exchange is parody-- and pretty good, too.

3FG, I am sure you are right.

My comments stand.

Green Light- Most certainly, the exchange between myself and TPM was lighthearted. We have a very good relationship and a lot of respect for each other. I was implying that it was alright to disagree with TPM on a subject and did so in jest.

I'm sure I speak for TPM and any other "Old Timers" here that we would never want to hinder the growth of this great website. Truthfully, I wouldn't be who I am today if it weren't for the people that were here before me. I really mean that, this site has had a lasting impact on my life.

I don't think anyone has ever tried pulling rank here (outside of an exchange like the one here). There is certainly something to be said about experiential learning within the game, but that has very little to do with how many posts a person has on an internet message board. I have a lot of experience- as does TPM- but that does not mean that we are right all the time. That's why its a discussion forum!

KIDS TODAY DON'T DO THE HIDDEN BALL TRICK ENOUGH!

Funny. 

I've been reading through this thread for the first time and find it interesting.  I see both sides of the argument.

I do know this...as an engineer.  My kids come home with math homework and ask for help.  I get out a sheet of paper and begin helping them work the problem or showing them how I would work it.  I usually take a full sheet to solve the problem...showing every step.  My kids sometimes get frustrated with me and declare, "Look Dad, you don't have to do all of that...my teacher showed us a shortcut!"

This rankles me.  A lot!  I don't want them to rely on or even learn shortcuts.  To me, its lazy and they'll never get the real concept.  It won't help them in the long run.

Somehow, I see an analogy here.  I come down on the side of...no trick plays!  I never taught 'em as a coach and I still somehow had a lotta success.

I love the analogy.  When my kids bring me math homework, I insist on two sharp pencils and a stack of clean paper before we get started.  Develop a disciplined routine that enables you to keep track of all the details (set up the problem correctly so you don't miss the stray negative sign you might miss when you're trying to scrunch a problem into about two square inches of paper; don't step off the base until you see the pitcher astride the rubber and he's required to have the ball in his possession) and the details won't bite you later.

The OP's situation is this. Runner at third. Catcher throws the ball to third baseman. Third baseman makes an unsuccessful tag. Fakes a throw to the pitcher and tries to make another tag.

I don't see this as a trick play.....unless people out there define fake throws as trick plays. So with men on first and second, grounder to 2B.......he flips to SS covering the bag........SS sees no chance for a DP at first.........so he fakes a throw to first and tries to get a backdoor on the runner who went to third. Trick play? No way.

Lots of teams spend time practicing that. Lots of teams spend time telling baserunners to maintain contact with the bag after a tag attempt until you are sure the pitcher has the ball. Lots of teams advise fielders to check if runners are coming off the bag too quick and can be tagged out.

I don't have a problem with any of this.

They were kidding around by the time they got to this post.  Somehow you missed that.

Board definitely needs new blood...each and every month/year.  But this was not an example of what you thought.  The 'rank pull' was two friends goofing around with each other.  Nothing more.

Like 3FG said, it was a "parody" of the Board. Perfect word, I think.

You guys are lucky.  My kid brings math homework and I say "#$%^" and hide.  Otherwise, he'll figure out he is in fact smarter than me. 

I agree with this; there are times when it can be used.  It has been around for a long time at all levels of baseball.  If you are a properly coached and alert player this should not happen to you.

I just saw this play a few weeks ago in a summer high school game.  A kid hit a double in the gap.  The 2nd baseman kept the ball as SS pretended to throw it in.  The kid stepped off and they tagged him out.

The coach did not call it from the dugout; the boys ran it on their own.

No one there said anything but wow that runner should be getting a but chewing from his coach right about now.

One of the times my son pulled off the play was early in the first game of a double header.  The whole rest of the afternoon the opposing coach kept yelling at his baserunners, "Where's the ball?" and made them point to where it was.  By the end of the second game the runners didn't need to be asked - they just stood on the base and pointed at where the ball was.  Parents from both sides got a good laugh.

Thanks for posting those examples. I am fairly ambivalent about the subject as I can see both sides of the coin.

However exploiting an opponents weaknesses has been a part of the game since it began. So maybe there is a scouting report saying a particular player is careless or a hotdog on the bases, so look to pick him off or even try a trick play against him if the opportunity arises. The desire to exploit an opponents weakness like a pitcher exploiting someone with a hole in their swing is part of the game. If a runner is too cool for school or is careless, I see no reason why the opposing team does not try to take advantage of it.

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Let's go back to the beginning.

The OP posted a scenario that would require a move that might help to win the game, that was suspended.

Not sure exactly what the hidden ball trick is actually, saw it once, I think when son was in college.  I guess I got to get out more often.

I would imagine that the HBT is an opportunity that would present itself, to expose, embarrass, whatever the other team. If you have to plan it out before a suspended game to "try" to win, something is wrong. And yes, I would not ever let my son play with a coach with that philosophy, whether legal or not.

The reason I objected to the OP, was that this was something he was thinking of to help his players to win. I didn't see it  as a teaching moment but, and I repeat, a bush move to win the game.

Last time that I checked there is a big difference between youth ball and pro ball.  My son has been playing the pro game for many years and I have never once seen this "trick".  I am not sure that this is something that is taught to rely on,  but rather more the traditional way of getting players out, which seems to me the way that we should teach our youth, they can learn to explore the "weaknesses' later on.  The game, the way I have come to respect it, is not about embarrassing your opponent.

It's ok if someone agrees with me, I just don't really get why the post in the first place, and it bothers me greatly that coaches need to find ways to "trick" the other team for a win.

JH was correct, we were playing with one another, we don't always agree, but there is mutual respect in opinions. I can't speak for him, but yes my intention was a parody or goof on those that are always whining about the "clique" hanging together.

Who pulled rank? Would new blood be those such as yourself who can come aboard and say what they like because NO ONE KNOWS WHO YOU ARE?

I am expressing my opinion as to the OP's idea, right or wrong, that is an opinion I am entitled to and you to yours.  I don't remember saying that it was wrong?

If you all will indulge 2 cents from a newbie:

One of the things I love about baseball is that you continually see new things happen, even after watching the game for decades.   I had never seen the hidden-ball trick pulled off quite the way the Rays did the other day so to me it was just an interesting new wrinkle to the game.

As to what we should be teaching our youth, I've always told kids what I learned early on -- you collect outs wherever you can get them, and baserunners provide just as good an opportunity to get them as batters do, even better in some ways, and if they provide that opportunity by not knowing the rules and not paying attention to the ball, and you don't take the opportunity collect outs because doing so would violate some unwritten rule, then you're not playing the game as hard as you can, which violates a larger unwritten rule, IMHO.  In that context, running  the play described in the OP is no different than running a first and third read play, and it sounds 100% kosher at any level I know of.

That said, it's true that the manager of a weaker team shouldn't think that he can even the playing field by running trick plays all the time. He should work  instead on the fundamentals and save his trick play for that one out he needs when his team is good enough to compete with better teams.

Good post, but don't agree on the circumstances. Is it really exposing the other  youth teams weakness or sloppy play or just a better chance to solidify the win.

Considering the circumstances (continuance of a suspended game) is it appropriate?

Keep in mind once again, this isn't major league but a youth ball game. What are you teaching them? 

TPM- The hidden ball trick is where an infielder fakes the throw back to the pitcher, who then moves like he's ready to pitch (without engaging the rubber). The runner will usually take his lead, and the infielder will tag him out. It's easy to beat if your runners and coaches are paying attention.

I'm so new, I didn't know the thing about revealing identity?? And what's up with the all-caps? That's usually the equivalent of shouting on message boards, right? What is it you would like me to do? Retract my words?

No way, I stand by what I said. Not going to be bullied by some all-caps!

That goes for both my comments on the subject of the thread and your "parody" on pulling rank 

Nobody and I mean nobody was paying attention for the Dodgers on that play because the Rays made two long / obvious throws.  I'm estimating from memory the throws were around 50 - 70 feet each.  This is where I don't see the difference in what the Rays did versus what the OP is talking about.  In each scenario the play depends on random throws and then hoping the runner and coach aren't paying attention. In each situation they are making risky and unnecessary throws.  Obviously the skill level between the two is vastly different.

One may say the difference between the two is that the OP is planned out while the Rays just did it on their own but I can't buy that.  There's no way you can tell me those three players just all of a sudden decided to make this happen.  I agree with whoever posted above this was in a scouting report somewhere and was discussed.  Both require prior work / preparation in order to work (with some luck).

How about this situation - runners on first and second and number of outs doesn't matter.  1B is playing behind the runner and not holding him on.  Both runner and first base coach are very non-chalant so the pitcher comes set and then the defense runs a backdoor pick with 1B and P.  Or even with the catcher throwing down after the pitch.  Now let's add that the initial pick was late and runner gets back safe.  Then the 1B pulls the old fake throw back to the pitcher and then tags the runner.  At what point do these things become bush league?

Now do I think spending time in practice working on what the OP is trying to accomplish is productive - no but it can be used as a teaching tool for your guys to have them pay attention.  I tell my guys that if the defense does (or even says) something that is out of the ordinary to start getting back to the bag and stay there until the pitcher is back on the mound.  You are teaching them to pay attention.

To me bush league is when the 1B lays a pretty hard tag on a runner back to the bag or things like that. To try and make a play on a sloppy / lazy runner is not bush league.

I don't see what the Rays did as being a "trick play" or "hidden ball trick" or anything of the sort. They simply threw the ball around and caught a runner and coach not paying attention.

And you still don't get it.  There was no bullying at all and the caps were part of the parody.  Oh well. 

You guys are a bunch of laughs!  Once I get more experience here maybe I will get hip. Or is your post a parody too? Ah fuggedaboudit

#Awesome!  <-Thats sarcasm.

I thought your job on defense was not to cooperate with the other team but get them out. Any defensive strategy which accomplishes this seems fine by me.

I am really hoping that was a parody too, because from my short time here I had thought sarcasm was beneath you.

Getting back to the substance of the thread, would anyone think a fake throw in a rundown is a "trick" and shouldn't be done for that reason? I don't.

There may be other reasons not to do fake throws in a rundown....in particular that you may fake out your own teammate who is set up to catch your throw......but I don't think it is poor sportsmanship or cheap.

For those who disagree with me, are you opposed to fake handoffs and pump fakes in football too?

I agree, onetime. 

Green Light - Yours is not sarcasm?  LOL.  "Beneath you" or not?

Once I get more experience here maybe I will get hip.

No. It is not sarcasm. It should be boringly obvious to everyone here that I am not hip to the parody that longtime posters who are very familiar with each other easily recognize.

Your post was sarcasm.

Back to the thread....is anyone who is opposed to a fake throw to the pitcher to try to tag a runner straying off base also opposed to fake handoffs and pump fakes in football? How about the "butcher boy".....fake bunt and a slash swing (I agree this should probably not be allowed in youth ball for safety reasons, but do y'all object on cheapness or sportsmanship grounds?)

Your post was sarcasm.

Didn't I already point and say this?

But so was yours.

You appear to have a wealth of knowledge and possibly experience(?), but trying to beat back longtime posters with their own tons of experiences to share by calling them out is NOT (<-yes, thats CAPS and intended for emphasis)...is NOT good for this message board.  You, in fact, are attempting your own style of bullying.

Oh posh!!!

So what does everyone think about fake throws in rundowns, butcher boy........and in football.......pump fakes and fake handoffs?

Cheap and unsportsmanlike, or part of the game?

Oh posh!!!

Bullies don't like to be called "bullies" I guess.  A very, VERY wise baseball man once told me that.  Thanks for proving him right. 

Are your last few posts parodies? We all know I'm not good at spotting them. But I am thinking they might be.

I guess whatever I said really got under your skin. I regret that.......but I don't regret the substance of anything I said.

In the meantime does anyone else want to get back to the subject of the thread...or maybe this one is spent

yes!! please.

Thank you, jp.

I am in the camp that says the situation in the OP......and backdoor plays at 3B, and fake throws in rundowns, and butcher boy on the 90' diamond are ok. I got no problem with fake handoffs or pump fakes in football....even though I realize the analogy between the two sports is not direct.

What are your opinions on these other types of plays?

My final thought on this is that the main reason for the OP to NOT do what he was thinking about, is ... if it worked, the poor kid who got tagged out at third would feel like crap, knowing all those people got up, got dressed, went to the ballpark ... etc etc etc ... only to have to leave immediately because he wasn't mature enough to know better.

As to the whole idea of trick plays, fakes, in any sport ... I say let the defense beware. If it's legal, it'll be done.

I think you make an interesting point, though I am not sure football analogies will work with baseball.

Regardless, I have never cared for the butcherboy at the younger levels because as you pointed out, it is a safety issue.

I remember a kid on my sons 10&under team rushing in for what he thought was a bunt, and the kid swung away and bashed a line drive that just missed the charging kids head by less than 12 inches. The kid rushing in didn't even know where the ball was when it whizzed by, so had it been headed for his face, he most certainly would have been seriously injured.

There are tricks used in baseball even in the majors on a regular basis, such as trying to deceive a runner to keep them from advancing. You will also see things like a pitcher do the 3rd to 1st move. It even happens in the pros, though it is rare. I certainly do not think of it as cheating.

Green Light's hit two of his three points of any thread he's in...how long until he takes an opposing statement and claims it backs him up?