Hidden Ball Trick

Yes, the football situation is an indirect analogy at best.

 

But there is a theme that is common in all sports. Deception, unless prohibited as in the case of balks, seems to be an accepted part of the game.

 

I'm not talking about fake BBCOR labels and cheating like that. I'm talking about faking throws, swings, bunts, catches in the OF to keep runners from getting a jump, steals, positioning (by smacking the glove while pivoting away behind the runner at second) and other in-game plays like that. 

 

No problem with any of that stuff for me.

 

Personally, I thought this was the best post in this thread.

 

(Disclaimer: continued parody...)

Me too! 

Agree 100%. Really funny.
Ok so you want to trick your opponent go ahead.  Adults have the right to make that happen.
This topic was about an adult having an idea about tricking kids.  If you all think that is acceptable thats your opinion. To me this is bush league. Is this what youth sports has become?
So very glad my son grew up with adults that thought otherwise (no tricks).

 

Let me take this post and justbaseball's post about shortcuts and fundamentals.

 

If players learn fundamental baseball, and in addition, learn trick plays to exploit opponents that lack fundamentals such as baserunning discipline, isn't that actually making them better players? It would be one thing for a coach to teach his team how to do it without explaining why or how it works, and calling it when he sees fit, but quite another for a coach to go in depth on when, why, and how it is successful, and allows the team to execute it when they see sloppy baserunning. The former would be a shortcut, the latter taking advantage of your opponent's shortcuts.

Just another point...food for thought...if a coach calls for a play such as a hidden ball trick in amateur ball, and is successful, perhaps the fact that it was successful is more a reflection on the opposing coach rather than the opposing players. If we're citing an adult's responsibility to teach the game the right way, then it's also the responsibility to teach kids the proper techniques of baserunning and focus. 

 

If the coach that calls for the play is to blame, then the opposing coach should be blamed as well for not fully teaching.

 

Truth be told, I still don't even consider the hidden ball trick to be a "trick". I still think it's simply taking advantage of an opponent's mistake. At every level of the game, that is taught.

Matt13 - Truth is I don't really have a big problem with it.  UCLA used a "trick play" both against our younger son's Pac12 opponent (didn't work) and again in the CWS I believe (didn't work again).  The play they ran, which they no doubt practiced, was with a runner on 2nd, pitcher fakes a pickoff throw and all fielders shout and react like the ball went into centerfield.  If the runner bites, they'd throw to SS or just run over and apply a tag himself for an out.  Didn't work either time.  I would agree with anyone that would call it "LL."  To me, it was "LL"...and I respect John Savage immensely.

 

Rays/Dodgers...trick play?  Sorta, but not really IMO.  Didn't bother me no matter how you look at it.

 

I think the point TPM was trying to make...and I don't feel as strongly as she does...is that I probably wouldn't waste my time (actually, I didn't waste my time) teaching trick plays to young kids.  I found plenty of ways to keep baseball fun in practice while at the same time focusing on the primary skills.  I don't ever recall one of my teams getting "tricked" by anyone...although it was tried from time to time.

 

I guess...like my math example...I think its a waste of time.  Too many teachers already teaching 'short cuts' and I would be lying if I told you I thought thats a good idea in general.   But I really don't care too if anyone else wants to practice it cause my teams woulda been spending that 15 minutes on situational defense or baserunning or bunting (major leaguers have become terrible bunters by the way...why?) or other traditional skills.  To me, its a tad on the "lazy" side of teaching baseball and it just isn't something I'm interested in.

 

As a side note (not discussed here)...there is at least one "trick play" sometimes thats a variation of the 'double suicide squeeze' where the runner on 2nd flat-out cuts the corner by 10 ft. or more at 3rd (never touching 3rd...on purpose) to get home faster...that is flat out cheating and I would never...repeat never...teach that type of play to anyone, let alone kids.  In fact, if someone had run it against my teams, we would have ended the game right there.  I imagine we all agree on that.

How can it possibly be a waste of time when it results in an out? Regardless of whether you'd personally use it or not, you really can't defend this statement.

Do I need to defend it?  Really?  Thats kind of a bold challenge isn't it?  Or its at least one that confounds me.  If you're just PO'd at me for some other reason...fine, but I don't get this comment one single bit.

 

Its really very simple...I think its a waste of time.  Period.  I didn't tell you how to feel about it.  I gave you my reasons...you either agree or not.  Its your choice and either choice is fine with me.  And mine ought to be fine with you too.

 

But...while you practice trick plays I'll tell you this, my team will be getting better at the things that win ballgames day in and day out and my kids will be better prepared at those things that do matter...by 15 minutes a day at least...that will truly help them make their HS team or beyond.

 

Truth be told, I liked playing teams that were coached to try and beat us with gimmicks and tricks.  I felt very confident in those games.

Wow, justbaseball. Yes, I challenged you directly. So what?? Isn't that what happens here every day? You know as well as I do that people come here all the time and get challenged DIRECTLY, BLUNTLY and often, NOT KINDLY.

 

I simply challenged your logic. I didn't insult your mother!

 

'Come on! If y'all expect everyone who comes here to be thick-skinned, model that behavior.

 

 

Wow. Ok, I'll defend it for justbaseball.

 

In economics, there is a concept called opportunity cost. It is one of the fundamental concepts in economics- the concept that spending time on one task could potentially be counterproductive due to the time missed out completing another task, hypothetically. 

 

What justbaseball is implying is that he believes that due to the scarcity of successful "trick plays", he feels as though there are many more important facets of the game to focus on during practice because they are more applicable. Upon rereading his post, my opinion is that justbaseball made this very clear. If you missed it or perhaps interpreted it differently then that's fine, but it's no reason to react with such hostility.

 

I'm not really sure why you insist on bunching groups of people together by saying "ya'll" need to be thick-skinned. I, for one, do my best to evaluate all opinions here with the same amount of validity regardless of the individual providing that information. Conclusions on people come over time and experience. I am not predisposed to disagreeing with someone because of a perceived "experience" based on how long they've posted on this website.

 

I think you need to stop jumping to conclusions about some people and use your own advice, if you'd like blunt honesty.

I never would have predicted a thread about a hidden ball trick would turn into a 3 page party. Awesome.

Did anyone catch that the OP went with his pitcher who ended up striking the batter out?

 

Good choice.

 

How old was the team?  Just curious.

 

 

Truly a strange and confusing post to me jp24.  I didn't take one bit of offense with your earlier post...at all...which leads me to ask, 'Should I have?'  Did you intend to insult me?  Because I called your post a "bold challenge?" 

 

I said things like, "I didn't tell you how to feel about it" and "Its your choice and either is fine with me."  I also said in an earlier post that while I think its more or less a waste of valuable practice time that, "Truth is I don't really have a big problem with it."

Did you mean to insult my mother and forgot too?  Were you feeling that down inside as you typed?  Perplexes me why you would bring this up??

 

I'm gonna guess there's some tension here that I didn't know existed?  BTW, your use of CAPS may bother Green Light as he thinks its internet shouting.  Were you SHOUTING at me?  (BTW, if you were, its ok by me...really, it is! ) .

 

Very, very confusing post to me jp24.  

 

Nice summary JH.  Yup, thats about the gist of it.

You called it a bold challenge, then asked me if I was PO'd. Why would I be? I just challenged your logic because I didn't understand it. You sounded offended, but then, we all know ... with this online medium, we infer sound and deduce meaning, since we're not literally hearing one another!

 

If you weren't offended, that's good ... because that was not my intention.

Lots of us get opportunity cost.

 

But I think it's chump change.

 

Smack your glove behind the runner leading off 2B before you break the other way. Two seconds?

 

Before you throw the ball back to the pitcher, check to see if the runner is not paying attention and try to swipe him. One minute of practice?

 

Backdoor the runner at 3B. 30 seconds each day for multiple reps? Lots of teams do this in pre-game infield.......most often on the DP grounder to 1B.

 

Start practice a minute or two early and end it a minute or two late....once a week...and I think you've got all of the above covered.

 

I didn't go thru all the examples. But how much time does it take coaches out there to advise about these opportunities and practice them? Does it really take away from other aspects of the game for you?

 

Edit: Frame of reference is high school or above...probably would take more time for 60' or 70' field kids

 

 

 

Agreed. However, I do believe it largely depends on the age level in question. It's much easier to communicate the minute details to those with a good grasp of the fundamentals already. 

Absolutely agree! Edited my post. 

Fair enough.  I thought I was losing my mind.  But then again, maybe I was?  

Yeah I thought that's what he called them.

Lots of us get opportunity cost.

 

But I think it's chump change.

 

Smack your glove behind the runner leading off 2B before you break the other way. Two seconds?

 

Before you throw the ball back to the pitcher, check to see if the runner is not paying attention and try to swipe him. One minute of practice?

 

Backdoor the runner at 3B. 30 seconds each day for multiple reps? Lots of teams do this in pre-game infield.......most often on the DP grounder to 1B.

 

Start practice a minute or two early and end it a minute or two late....once a week...and I think you've got all of the above covered.

 

I didn't go thru all the examples. But how much time does it take coaches out there to advise about these opportunities and practice them? Does it really take away from other aspects of the game for you?

 

Edit: Frame of reference is high school or above...probably would take more time for 60' or 70' field kids

All pretty routine stuff to me and not "trick plays" or "hidden ball tricks" which is what I thought this thread was about.

 

We never needed an extra minute or two to cover any of this.  But I usually found it kind of funny...teams that smacked their gloves incessantly behind the runner at 2nd.  Instead we worked on 2 or 3 real pickoff plays and taught the kids how to recognize the right situation and call for it themselves.  We often picked off runners and they never knew it was coming. 

A smack of the glove before pivoting away behind the runner leading off 2B can be slightly effective.

 

Incessantly smacking the glove is counterproductive because it tells the runner exactly where you are. This is the opposite of deception....it is more like giving the runner a free radar system

 

Another common ploy is for relay men to smack their glove and fake a throw to a base even if they are not cutting a ball off, to try to fool the runner into not advancing on the throw through.

 

All of this is fine by me.....and the opportunity cost is pretty low at any level of the game. Interested in others' opinions.

My coach just told me that the hidden ball trick is in his list of the important fundamentals of baseball.