High School Coaching Loyality

I see a lot of conjecture in your conclusion. I can tell you that in the state where I live, these could be very strategic decisions because of our playoff structure.

My sons Varsity HC started his 5'-6" son at short stop (pun intended) all 4 years in high school.           When my son played 1B his freshman year half the balls were one hopping to him from the shortstop. The HC was caught cooking the books to inflate his son's batting average to help get district "honors" at the end of his son's junior season.   His son went to a D2 college as a walk on and lasted 6 weeks before quitting baseball altogether.  

Domingo's video almost exactly describes this situation. 

Coachs Kid

lionbaseball posted:

My sons Varsity HC started his 5'-6" son at short stop (pun intended) all 4 years in high school.           When my son played 1B his freshman year half the balls were one hopping to him from the shortstop. The HC was caught cooking the books to inflate his son's batting average to help get district "honors" at the end of his son's junior season.   His son went to a D2 college as a walk on and lasted 6 weeks before quitting baseball altogether.  

Domingo's video almost exactly describes this situation. 

Coachs Kid

I'm a bit confused...he made a D2 roster as a walk-on?

What's to explain. It appears odd. But chances are all the information isn't provided. Maybe upcoming conference games are more important than the tournament.

Matt13 posted:

lionbaseball posted:

My sons Varsity HC started his 5'-6" son at short stop (pun intended) all 4 years in high school.           When my son played 1B his freshman year half the balls were one hopping to him from the shortstop. The HC was caught cooking the books to inflate his son's batting average to help get district "honors" at the end of his son's junior season.   His son went to a D2 college as a walk on and lasted 6 weeks before quitting baseball altogether.  

Domingo's video almost exactly describes this situation. 

Coachs Kid

I'm a bit confused...he made a D2 roster as a walk-on?

His dad graduated from that college years ago and I suppose pulled some strings to get his kid a walk-on.  

Coach sucks so much the team is 10-2.  Get him fired immediately!

lionbaseball posted:

Matt13 posted:

lionbaseball posted:

My sons Varsity HC started his 5'-6" son at short stop (pun intended) all 4 years in high school.           When my son played 1B his freshman year half the balls were one hopping to him from the shortstop. The HC was caught cooking the books to inflate his son's batting average to help get district "honors" at the end of his son's junior season.   His son went to a D2 college as a walk on and lasted 6 weeks before quitting baseball altogether.  

Domingo's video almost exactly describes this situation. 

Coachs Kid

I'm a bit confused...he made a D2 roster as a walk-on?

His dad graduated from that college years ago and I suppose pulled some strings to get his kid a walk-on.  

Loved the video (very funny)

CoachB25 posted:

Coach sucks so much the team is 10-2.  Get him fired immediately!

Maybe coach was mad at his son???????  Probably should have cleaned his room and taken out the trash.

There's always more to the story...  Were the 2 losses to teams that you could perhaps play later in a more important game?  It's the old not showing your hand or providing some sort of false sense of superiority down the road.  Coaches do funny things along the way to send messages and prove points. A HS season/career only lasts so long - sit back, enjoy the ride, and stop worrying about what the HC is doing.  If the HC job does open up someday, do you want to be first in line to submit your resume?

Are the regular starters pissed about it? If not, I wouldn't put much thought into it. Perhaps this was a reward for those kids? I think this is the missing part of the story - how it affected the team.

why is this a tread?

It is a little different. The normal complaint is of kids not getting any playing time. See what potentially happens when a coach does give the bench significant PT? Can't win.

Some parents just aren't happy unless they have something to bitch about while watching the game. At our high school I called them The Jury. It was four rec coaches who thought they knew more than the coach. They liked to stoke the fire with the other parents. For all that was wrong about the coaching The Jury was wrong a solid majority of the time.

old_school posted:

why is this a tread?

Because Coachjacke's grandson obviously was one of the seniors and he wanted our opinion the guy was a fool....so does anyone NOT understand why some of us get 

 Last game of the regular season when son was a freshman in college the coaches put him in for the save.  I was sitting close to senior parents, and they were NOT happy (they didn't realize who I was). They felt that honor should have gone to a senior.

So I asked  later on why they put in son and not a senior )flet kind of bad they were trashing my kid and the coach) and his answer was son was their future.

Coaches do things for all different reasons,   the only time we should question a move is if our players health is involved.

For those that  don't understand this........just wait until your player goes to college.

TPM posted:

old_school posted:

why is this a tread?

Because Coachjacke's grandson obviously was one of the seniors and he wanted our opinion the guy was a fool....so does anyone NOT understand why some of us get 

 Last game of the regular season when son was a freshman in college the coaches put him in for the save.  I was sitting close to senior parents, and they were NOT happy (they didn't realize who I was). They felt that honor should have gone to a senior.

So I asked  later on why they put in son and not a senior )flet kind of bad they were trashing my kid and the coach) and his answer was son was their future.

Coaches do things for all different reasons,   the only time we should question a move is if our players health is involved.

For those that  don't understand this........just wait until your player goes to college.

That is a valid difference of opinion.  A lot of people appreciate the nostalgia of the "old timer" getting one last shot and being able to ride off into the sunset.   

Golfman25 posted:

TPM posted:

old_school posted:

why is this a tread?

Because Coachjacke's grandson obviously was one of the seniors and he wanted our opinion the guy was a fool....so does anyone NOT understand why some of us get 

 Last game of the regular season when son was a freshman in college the coaches put him in for the save.  I was sitting close to senior parents, and they were NOT happy (they didn't realize who I was). They felt that honor should have gone to a senior.

So I asked  later on why they put in son and not a senior )flet kind of bad they were trashing my kid and the coach) and his answer was son was their future.

Coaches do things for all different reasons,   the only time we should question a move is if our players health is involved.

For those that  don't understand this........just wait until your player goes to college.

That is a valid difference of opinion.  A lot of people appreciate the nostalgia of the "old timer" getting one last shot and being able to ride off into the sunset.   

He is going to play at  D1 as were some of the other seniors.

But I do believe that seniors who have earned the right to play should, but I am not the coach, and I go by those type of decisions.

When I first came aboard the HS coaching scene, I thought it was a big deal to win the early/mid season tourneys and to beat the bigger non-conference schools in our area during early pre-league play.  I quickly learned that those are the least important games and the most important for getting non-starters innings.  This puts them in a better position to help the team in the spots they would be called upon later in the year and in the following year.

Obviously, there is fairly little background given in this instance but I can think of 1000 valid reasons why the coach may have played things the way it is described.  Most good teams have the #1 goal of going far/winning it all at the state level, #2 goal of winning their league.  Beating a strong team early or winning an early tournament (in our parts, conducted mostly to allow schools to legally fit more non-league games into their schedule) are very low on the goal list.  I would take 10-2 with a more fully ready team top to bottom over 12-0 with questions beyond one thru nine every day of the week.   If the seniors know why it is being done this way, I'm sure they would be on board as well.  Even if they don't know why, sometimes it doesn't hurt to create a bit more hunger for getting back on and staying on the field.

I've read this thread 2x today but I'm still a little confused. TEam is 10-2 right? I'm pretty sure 99% of coaches would take that anyday. Maybe in game number 5 coach saw his starters getting a little tired, who knows? He most likely had his reasons, and at 10-2 has every right to them. 

As for the "bleacher coaches"...last Saturday was first scrimmage for 2016' HS team. I said hello to most of the returning parental units then went down the line and stood by myself to watch as I always do. I did notice that some of the new dads had some opinions on the team. They will learn. 

TPM posted: 

For those that  don't understand this........just wait until your player goes to college.

Yep.  By the time my son was halfway through his freshman year of college, I gave up trying to figure the coach out.

Unless you can read his mind, you really don't have a clue.  Relax and enjoy the game.

soulslam55 posted:

I've read this thread 2x today but I'm still a little confused. TEam is 10-2 right? I'm pretty sure 99% of coaches would take that anyday. Maybe in game number 5 coach saw his starters getting a little tired, who knows? He most likely had his reasons, and at 10-2 has every right to them. 

As for the "bleacher coaches"...last Saturday was first scrimmage for 2016' HS team. I said hello to most of the returning parental units then went down the line and stood by myself to watch as I always do. I did notice that some of the new dads had some opinions on the team. They will learn. 

My granddad's theory for these kind of situations was that opinions and buttheads come in the same wrapper and that we'd never have a shortage.  I have found it is a philosophy that stands the test of time and a worthy explanation for many things.

As for team being 10-2 but could be 12-0.  Don't sweat the small stuff. 

cabbagedad posted:

When I first came aboard the HS coaching scene, I thought it was a big deal to win the early/mid season tourneys and to beat the bigger non-conference schools in our area during early pre-league play.  I quickly learned that those are the least important games and the most important for getting non-starters innings.  This puts them in a better position to help the team in the spots they would be called upon later in the year and in the following year.

Obviously, there is fairly little background given in this instance but I can think of 1000 valid reasons why the coach may have played things the way it is described.  Most good teams have the #1 goal of going far/winning it all at the state level, #2 goal of winning their league.  Beating a strong team early or winning an early tournament (in our parts, conducted mostly to allow schools to legally fit more non-league games into their schedule) are very low on the goal list.  I would take 10-2 with a more fully ready team top to bottom over 12-0 with questions beyond one thru nine every day of the week.   If the seniors know why it is being done this way, I'm sure they would be on board as well.  Even if they don't know why, sometimes it doesn't hurt to create a bit more hunger for getting back on and staying on the field.

In my view, this was the best answer so far; i.e. the game wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. However it was important to the three pitchers splitting the innings and not receiving the usual (offensive/defensive) support. I agree that the HC needs to get others prepped in order to go deep into the states but does he have to get them all in the same game. None of these players have played since! With respect to the tourney championship game; the coaches’ son is good and his future is bright; but why alienate your seniors. (and he did do that) Their league schedule should have had no influence. But returning to my original question; don’t coaches owe their seniors some modicum of loyalty for busting their butts for 4 years.

I think you're right about this coach.  If the senior starters feel alienated because they sat out one game then coach has done a very poor job indeed at developing the players' character, loyalty to the team,  and attitude.

So here is my conclusion. Team lost the sixth game they played because all 8 starters sat (did not say they were all seniors). Then they lost the tournament championship because the coaches freshman son pitched (ahead of some senior D1 commits). he got shelled in the first inning which IMO meant that those senior d1 commits could relieve.

I agree with Coach B, fire him IMMEDIATELY.

The coach should play the best 9 that he feels will win important games, freshman or senior. And make sure that others get in the game so they can be useful later on.

Picking and choosing spots to get younger players in has nothing to do with being loyal to your seniors.  One could certainly argue that there is far more value to get those younger players in a whole game against decent competition instead of a few mop-up AB's against weaker opposition after the game is decided.  And I would disagree that the league schedule should have no influence.  It has a big influence on me.  We have three games this week... two league games sandwich a non-league against a neighbor rival.  Unfortunately, the league games are what carry most weight so I have to throw my best at those games, as much as I'd like to get after our big bad neighbor with more full force.  I know there will be plenty of folks in the stands that don't understand.  That game will also be the game I am far more likely to start and sub with something other than my best nine.  Senior or not will have zero influence on my decision.  I'm trying to help the team reach their goals, this year and in the future.

There are other ways seniors can be given their proper respect and appreciation.  I believe a coach should recognize that a player busted his butt for four years if that is the case but I don't believe a coach should give that player more "loyalty" by playing him in a manner that is not in the best interest of the team.

T

CoachJackE posted:

cabbagedad posted:

When I first came aboard the HS coaching scene, I thought it was a big deal to win the early/mid season tourneys and to beat the bigger non-conference schools in our area during early pre-league play.  I quickly learned that those are the least important games and the most important for getting non-starters innings.  This puts them in a better position to help the team in the spots they would be called upon later in the year and in the following year.

Obviously, there is fairly little background given in this instance but I can think of 1000 valid reasons why the coach may have played things the way it is described.  Most good teams have the #1 goal of going far/winning it all at the state level, #2 goal of winning their league.  Beating a strong team early or winning an early tournament (in our parts, conducted mostly to allow schools to legally fit more non-league games into their schedule) are very low on the goal list.  I would take 10-2 with a more fully ready team top to bottom over 12-0 with questions beyond one thru nine every day of the week.   If the seniors know why it is being done this way, I'm sure they would be on board as well.  Even if they don't know why, sometimes it doesn't hurt to create a bit more hunger for getting back on and staying on the field.

In my view, this was the best answer so far; i.e. the game wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. However it was important to the three pitchers splitting the innings and not receiving the usual (offensive/defensive) support. I agree that the HC needs to get others prepped in order to go deep into the states but does he have to get them all in the same game. None of these players have played since! With respect to the tourney championship game; the coaches’ son is good and his future is bright; but why alienate your seniors. (and he did do that) Their league schedule should have had no influence. But returning to my original question; don’t coaches owe their seniors some modicum of loyalty for busting their butts for 4 years.

I agree with cabbage 100%.  Game reps are important and a HS season comes and goes quickly.  Playing the second string against a top team during a "non season" game is common as has already been pointed out.  It is also a good chance to really see what the bench has to offer against good competition compared to bringing them in in a blow out when everyone has already checked out.  What difference does it make that none of them has played since?  Maybe known of them stepped up.  Maybe one or two proved themselves but only in specific roles.  The coaches son pitching has a ton of issues already.  Again pressure starts to help him grow will only help in the future.  Preseason tournaments are just that, glorified scrimmages.  They mean nothing.  The league schedule means everything.  Preseason is all about preparing the whole team not just your 9 starter or seniors for league play.  

Regarding seniors, each coach is different.  Most coaches around here will play the best 9 players period.  Loyalty to seniors is nonexistent.  If two players are "equal" and one is a senior and the other is a junior there is a good chance the junior gets more playtime.  That junior (and the team) will be better for it next year and it won't impact the team this year.   

It seems obvious that you feel the coach owes the seniors play time.  What are the chances that you are impacting how your son feels?  

CoachJackE posted:

But returning to my original question; don’t coaches owe their seniors some modicum of loyalty for busting their butts for 4 years.

The only "loyalty" owed the seniors is giving them the first crack at earning the position.  If they get beaten out by a underclassman then so be it.  Varsity is the HS "showcase" team - time to field the best nine.

Yes - work the subs in when appropriate to give them experience, but he should always strive to have the best nine in the lineup.My son's sophomore year he beat out a senior for the catcher's position.  Son was better at the position (very few passed balls), and hit better.  The senior had his shot - in practice - and he didn't perform as well.  Even on senior night (a district game) the senior did not play.  Yes, he was recognized as a senior during pregame ceremonies, but coach did not play him.

cabbagedad posted:

Picking and choosing spots to get younger players in has nothing to do with being loyal to your seniors.  One could certainly argue that there is far more value to get those younger players in a whole game against decent competition instead of a few mop-up AB's against weaker opposition after the game is decided.  And I would disagree that the league schedule should have no influence.  It has a big influence on me.  We have three games this week... two league games sandwich a non-league against a neighbor rival.  Unfortunately, the league games are what carry most weight so I have to throw my best at those games, as much as I'd like to get after our big bad neighbor with more full force.  I know there will be plenty of folks in the stands that don't understand.  That game will also be the game I am far more likely to start and sub with something other than my best nine.  Senior or not will have zero influence on my decision.  I'm trying to help the team reach their goals, this year and in the future.

There are other ways seniors can be given their proper respect and appreciation.  I believe a coach should recognize that a player busted his butt for four years if that is the case but I don't believe a coach should give that player more "loyalty" by playing him in a manner that is not in the best interest of the team.

T

Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough. Seniors having issues (with game 6) were not due to the sitting out a game but rather the apparent non-interest in trying to win, i.e., trying to get to 6-0. The team wants to win every game in theory. Each senior class wants to have a better season that the previous group.

The same is true for game 12; the championship game of your school's home tourney. The TEAM wants to win this game in front of the home crowd and felt the coach didn’t give them the best opportunity to go 11-1 at this point. Three D1 and one JC senior pitching commits sat in frustration as they watched the coach’s freshman son get the opportunity to grab the brass ring, be the hero instead of the goat.  I’m not talking about some whiney individual with a bent nose and as far as I know the parents and grandparents could care less.

Regarding league schedules, I did not mean that league schedule should have no influence on the HC's decisions (obviously they do); what I meant to say was that "in this case", the league schedule had no influence regarding pitching in this particular game.  

Does your team have different expectations than the teams in my area?

Anxious for your reply.

Sorry but I generally find these issues to be mainly about the parents and rarely about the kids. That is unless the parents make it an issue for the kids.  Just speaking from personal experience with my own son and daughter. 

real green posted:

CoachJackE posted:

cabbagedad posted:

When I first came aboard the HS coaching scene, I thought it was a big deal to win the early/mid season tourneys and to beat the bigger non-conference schools in our area during early pre-league play.  I quickly learned that those are the least important games and the most important for getting non-starters innings.  This puts them in a better position to help the team in the spots they would be called upon later in the year and in the following year.

Obviously, there is fairly little background given in this instance but I can think of 1000 valid reasons why the coach may have played things the way it is described.  Most good teams have the #1 goal of going far/winning it all at the state level, #2 goal of winning their league.  Beating a strong team early or winning an early tournament (in our parts, conducted mostly to allow schools to legally fit more non-league games into their schedule) are very low on the goal list.  I would take 10-2 with a more fully ready team top to bottom over 12-0 with questions beyond one thru nine every day of the week.   If the seniors know why it is being done this way, I'm sure they would be on board as well.  Even if they don't know why, sometimes it doesn't hurt to create a bit more hunger for getting back on and staying on the field.

In my view, this was the best answer so far; i.e. the game wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. However it was important to the three pitchers splitting the innings and not receiving the usual (offensive/defensive) support. I agree that the HC needs to get others prepped in order to go deep into the states but does he have to get them all in the same game. None of these players have played since! With respect to the tourney championship game; the coaches’ son is good and his future is bright; but why alienate your seniors. (and he did do that) Their league schedule should have had no influence. But returning to my original question; don’t coaches owe their seniors some modicum of loyalty for busting their butts for 4 years.

I agree with cabbage 100%.  Game reps are important and a HS season comes and goes quickly.  Playing the second string against a top team during a "non season" game is common as has already been pointed out.  It is also a good chance to really see what the bench has to offer against good competition compared to bringing them in in a blow out when everyone has already checked out.  What difference does it make that none of them has played since?  Maybe known of them stepped up.  Maybe one or two proved themselves but only in specific roles.  The coaches son pitching has a ton of issues already.  Again pressure starts to help him grow will only help in the future.  Preseason tournaments are just that, glorified scrimmages.  They mean nothing.  The league schedule means everything.  Preseason is all about preparing the whole team not just your 9 starter or seniors for league play.  

Regarding seniors, each coach is different.  Most coaches around here will play the best 9 players period.  Loyalty to seniors is nonexistent.  If two players are "equal" and one is a senior and the other is a junior there is a good chance the junior gets more playtime.  That junior (and the team) will be better for it next year and it won't impact the team this year.   

It seems obvious that you feel the coach owes the seniors play time.  What are the chances that you are impacting how your son feels?  

 

Perhaps I stated this poorly. The starting team consists of 3- 4 senior position players and the rest are juniors. The TEAM's expectation is that they want to win every game. Is your team different? The TEAM's expectation of their coach is that he will give them the opportunity to win. Do you understand the frustration of the TEAM (especially the senior starters) when the feel the coach made no attempt to win? (BY SITTING ALL THE STARTERS)

CoachJackE posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Picking and choosing spots to get younger players in has nothing to do with being loyal to your seniors.  One could certainly argue that there is far more value to get those younger players in a whole game against decent competition instead of a few mop-up AB's against weaker opposition after the game is decided.  And I would disagree that the league schedule should have no influence.  It has a big influence on me.  We have three games this week... two league games sandwich a non-league against a neighbor rival.  Unfortunately, the league games are what carry most weight so I have to throw my best at those games, as much as I'd like to get after our big bad neighbor with more full force.  I know there will be plenty of folks in the stands that don't understand.  That game will also be the game I am far more likely to start and sub with something other than my best nine.  Senior or not will have zero influence on my decision.  I'm trying to help the team reach their goals, this year and in the future.

There are other ways seniors can be given their proper respect and appreciation.  I believe a coach should recognize that a player busted his butt for four years if that is the case but I don't believe a coach should give that player more "loyalty" by playing him in a manner that is not in the best interest of the team.

T

Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough. Seniors having issues (with game 6) were not due to the sitting out a game but rather the apparent non-interest in trying to win, i.e., trying to get to 6-0. The team wants to win every game in theory. Each senior class wants to have a better season that the previous group.

The same is true for game 12; the championship game of your school's home tourney. The TEAM wants to win this game in front of the home crowd and felt the coach didn’t give them the best opportunity to go 11-1 at this point. Three D1 and one JC senior pitching commits sat in frustration as they watched the coach’s freshman son get the opportunity to grab the brass ring, be the hero instead of the goat.  I’m not talking about some whiney individual with a bent nose and as far as I know the parents and grandparents could care less.

Regarding league schedules, I did not mean that league schedule should have no influence on the HC's decisions (obviously they do); what I meant to say was that "in this case", the league schedule had no influence regarding pitching in this particular game.  

Does your team have different expectations than the teams in my area?

Anxious for your reply.

With four stud senior pitchers when would you start to build your pitching staff for next year?  If it's true that you have four senior studs, no one else will see the mound much for the rest of the season once league plays starts!  Sounds like the coach knows what he is doing.  He some how developed all these college players.  He must be an idiot.   

Every year I awarded those that met the criteria, a letter.  That was their thanks for hard work. I then pushed for post season awards for those that could gain them.  Each year is a new year.  So, at least in my program, you earn your spot again and nothing is guaranteed.  Why?   Because the best play regardless of year in school.  Further, if they are fortunate enough to go on to college, it will be dog eat dog.  My dd played 1st base in college as a freshman over a senior.  She was recruited as an OF.  Each year, the coach recruited at least one1st baseman to try to take her position. 

Regarding who plays, a coach is responsible for a lot of different things but including that should a varsity starter get injured that the next player steps in without the team losing a beat.  How do you know who that might be if you don't put them into games and sometimes games that matter.  In 1990, when the team I coached as an assistant coach saw a starter go down as we made it to state.   He was our #5 hitter.  So, next man up and we had him ready.  The young man we had ready went on to be named to the All Tournament Team as we won state. 

Per this topic, it is easy to be critical of HS coaches.  CoachJacke obviously doesn't care for this coach and wants to second guess him.  IMO, 10-2 is pretty good. 

CoachJackE posted:

real green posted:

CoachJackE posted:

cabbagedad posted:

When I first came aboard the HS coaching scene, I thought it was a big deal to win the early/mid season tourneys and to beat the bigger non-conference schools in our area during early pre-league play.  I quickly learned that those are the least important games and the most important for getting non-starters innings.  This puts them in a better position to help the team in the spots they would be called upon later in the year and in the following year.

Obviously, there is fairly little background given in this instance but I can think of 1000 valid reasons why the coach may have played things the way it is described.  Most good teams have the #1 goal of going far/winning it all at the state level, #2 goal of winning their league.  Beating a strong team early or winning an early tournament (in our parts, conducted mostly to allow schools to legally fit more non-league games into their schedule) are very low on the goal list.  I would take 10-2 with a more fully ready team top to bottom over 12-0 with questions beyond one thru nine every day of the week.   If the seniors know why it is being done this way, I'm sure they would be on board as well.  Even if they don't know why, sometimes it doesn't hurt to create a bit more hunger for getting back on and staying on the field.

In my view, this was the best answer so far; i.e. the game wasn't important in the grand scheme of things. However it was important to the three pitchers splitting the innings and not receiving the usual (offensive/defensive) support. I agree that the HC needs to get others prepped in order to go deep into the states but does he have to get them all in the same game. None of these players have played since! With respect to the tourney championship game; the coaches’ son is good and his future is bright; but why alienate your seniors. (and he did do that) Their league schedule should have had no influence. But returning to my original question; don’t coaches owe their seniors some modicum of loyalty for busting their butts for 4 years.

I agree with cabbage 100%.  Game reps are important and a HS season comes and goes quickly.  Playing the second string against a top team during a "non season" game is common as has already been pointed out.  It is also a good chance to really see what the bench has to offer against good competition compared to bringing them in in a blow out when everyone has already checked out.  What difference does it make that none of them has played since?  Maybe known of them stepped up.  Maybe one or two proved themselves but only in specific roles.  The coaches son pitching has a ton of issues already.  Again pressure starts to help him grow will only help in the future.  Preseason tournaments are just that, glorified scrimmages.  They mean nothing.  The league schedule means everything.  Preseason is all about preparing the whole team not just your 9 starter or seniors for league play.  

Regarding seniors, each coach is different.  Most coaches around here will play the best 9 players period.  Loyalty to seniors is nonexistent.  If two players are "equal" and one is a senior and the other is a junior there is a good chance the junior gets more playtime.  That junior (and the team) will be better for it next year and it won't impact the team this year.   

It seems obvious that you feel the coach owes the seniors play time.  What are the chances that you are impacting how your son feels?  

 

Perhaps I stated this poorly. The starting team consists of 3- 4 senior position players and the rest are juniors. The TEAM's expectation is that they want to win every game. Is your team different? The TEAM's expectation of their coach is that he will give them the opportunity to win. Do you understand the frustration of the TEAM (especially the senior starters) when the feel the coach made no attempt to win? (BY SITTING ALL THE STARTERS)

Absolutely, winning is ONE of the main goals.  You also have to throw in there developing players to win in the future.  Also were any of the bench players seniors?  Does he have any obligation to get them on the field for their dedication to the program?  

We never know the truth of these stories. Mabe we wouldn't agree even if we were as close to the situation as you.

Let's stipulate that the coach's actions were foolish, and that they were disrespectful to certain players, and that he didn't do all he could to win games whenever possible.

Let's also assume that this board, a collection of strangers on the internet agree with all that.  Both assumptions are  plausible.

In that case, where are you going with this? Do you intend to tell the guy where he went wrong?  Go above his head and get him disciplined or fired?  Or do you only want folks to validate your assessment.

Just curious to know what the point is.

CoachJackE posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Picking and choosing spots to get younger players in has nothing to do with being loyal to your seniors.  One could certainly argue that there is far more value to get those younger players in a whole game against decent competition instead of a few mop-up AB's against weaker opposition after the game is decided.  And I would disagree that the league schedule should have no influence.  It has a big influence on me.  We have three games this week... two league games sandwich a non-league against a neighbor rival.  Unfortunately, the league games are what carry most weight so I have to throw my best at those games, as much as I'd like to get after our big bad neighbor with more full force.  I know there will be plenty of folks in the stands that don't understand.  That game will also be the game I am far more likely to start and sub with something other than my best nine.  Senior or not will have zero influence on my decision.  I'm trying to help the team reach their goals, this year and in the future.

There are other ways seniors can be given their proper respect and appreciation.  I believe a coach should recognize that a player busted his butt for four years if that is the case but I don't believe a coach should give that player more "loyalty" by playing him in a manner that is not in the best interest of the team.

T

Perhaps I didn't communicate well enough. Seniors having issues (with game 6) were not due to the sitting out a game but rather the apparent non-interest in trying to win, i.e., trying to get to 6-0. The team wants to win every game in theory. Each senior class wants to have a better season that the previous group.

The same is true for game 12; the championship game of your school's home tourney. The TEAM wants to win this game in front of the home crowd and felt the coach didn’t give them the best opportunity to go 11-1 at this point. Three D1 and one JC senior pitching commits sat in frustration as they watched the coach’s freshman son get the opportunity to grab the brass ring, be the hero instead of the goat.  I’m not talking about some whiney individual with a bent nose and as far as I know the parents and grandparents could care less.

Regarding league schedules, I did not mean that league schedule should have no influence on the HC's decisions (obviously they do); what I meant to say was that "in this case", the league schedule had no influence regarding pitching in this particular game.  

Does your team have different expectations than the teams in my area?

Anxious for your reply.

Coachjack, I do understand your point that the seniors class wants to win every game if possible and wants to have a better record than the previous group.  I definitely want those types of players on my teams.  It makes it hard when you make the tough decisions to make the team and program strong for now, later in the season and next year.  Sometimes it's REALLY hard.   But, as Real Green and Coach B pointed out, when do you develop your pitchers for next year?  When do you prepare for next man up when (not if) one of your guys goes down or doesn't make grades or quits or....   The way I feel is that I have to expect my starter at every position to go down.  For me to do my job properly, I have to have a competent player ready to step in at each position right away and still allow us to compete without missing a beat.  (And boy, am I being tested with that theory this year.)  You can't do that just by giving the second string guys a few meaningless mop-up AB's and late inning defensive roles.

As far as the seniors being angry, I'm OK with angry in the sense that they wanted in the game and they wanted to win the game/tournament.  But, they are going to know up front that we will pick and choose times to develop the team and put guys in that we, the team, will count on to be next man up.  We are still going to try our best to win but we will try our best to win with those guys at times.  If you (senior players) don't get that, then we have issues with our team.  You don't have to be 100% happy.  Like I said, I don't want you to be.  But understand the purpose and support it.  Get on that rail and get behind those next guys every bit as much or more than they do for you.

Maybe my example of my game lineup this week didn't properly illustrate the whole issue with league games.  I could have zero league games over the next ten games.  It still factors in considerably because I know that, when league games do start, I will be far less likely to pull starters so I need to do it during non-league games and tournament games regardless of when they fall, who they are against, etc. 

My communication with these issues goes to the players.  I know darn well it usually isn't going to make it to the parents.  I'm OK with that.  As long as my players are together on things.

None of this is easy.  It's a huge balancing act.  If you go too far getting the "second stringers" meaningful innings, you can hurt the starters in a variety of ways.  Just trying to open your eyes to some of the likely thought process.

The way 2019Son's coaches put it, their priorities are "Program - Team - Player," in that order. So they will do what is best for the program (which might include, as in this example, making sure next year's team has some experienced players), then the team (be it varsity, JV, or freshman), then the individual player. Sounds like these coaches have a similar approach.

With all due respect I don't think anybody here is going to say what you want to hear.  Yes you may be right and the coach is an idiot but as many people above have stated there could be very viable reasons for why he went this route.  All players and coaches want to win every single game but let's face it - it's not possible (or at the very least extremely difficult).  Sometimes you get to games you know no matter what lineup you put out there it won't be the best for whatever reason.  There have been times when I made my schedule it was perfect on paper.  I felt that I was going to be able to use this game for bench players and start younger pitchers but then we started the season and it all went out the window.  Those bench player games turned into my number ones playing because they were struggling and needed that weaker team.  Or weather moved around a bunch of games and that big huge game with that non-conference team means I have to use a JV pitcher because I ran out of my best pitchers due to conference games.

Look it's hard to get any sympathy to say the coach is wrong when they are 10 - 2.  Maybe it's in spite of him but i really doubt it.  Let's face facts though - as someone said above.......what are you going to do about it?  In fact there's nothing you can do about it except either get past it to move on (especially with your son) or you can let it make you bitter and you bet he cancer in the stands.  End of the day your opinion doesn't many squat with that coach even if he is wrong.  I'm not trying to be a jerk to you but that's the honest truth.  

Have your son go talk to the coach and have him ask why the starters sat for that one game.  It's ok to approach the coach and say "hey coach I don't understand why you did that.  can you help me understand it?"

Best of luck the rest of the way

If I had the issues with what occurred as the original poster I would have been over them before I got home and could get online. My son had a high school coach I could have nitpicked apart. He had some serious personality flaws which created coaching flaws. But the team won two conference titles and a second in my son's three years. He accomplished this in years two through four of his head coaching career. This followed seventeen losing seasons in twenty years. There were a lot of ticked off parents for needless reasons. Winning just couldn't please them. 

Every player wanted to win every game. But the regulars knew key substitutes were going to get playing time in non conference games. Pitchers down the depth chart were going to get in non conference games. When districts come around the need for additional pitching increases. I thought keeping pitchers down the depth chart ready was an excellent idea.

Wanting to win every game and playing every inning is what every player should want. But it's not always in the best interest of the team in the long run.

lionbaseball posted:

Matt13 posted:

lionbaseball posted:

My sons Varsity HC started his 5'-6" son at short stop (pun intended) all 4 years in high school.           When my son played 1B his freshman year half the balls were one hopping to him from the shortstop. The HC was caught cooking the books to inflate his son's batting average to help get district "honors" at the end of his son's junior season.   His son went to a D2 college as a walk on and lasted 6 weeks before quitting baseball altogether.  

Domingo's video almost exactly describes this situation. 

Coachs Kid

I'm a bit confused...he made a D2 roster as a walk-on?

His dad graduated from that college years ago and I suppose pulled some strings to get his kid a walk-on.  

That's a good one!

Wait...you honestly think that could have happened...

I see a pattern.... Has the team played game 18 yet?

As a parent, sure I wanted to see some amount of loyalty from the coach, but I also understand the need to make sure to build the program.   I also expected my sons to be loyal to the team, do what the coach asks, and not believe they are irreplaceable - because they are (as others have said, wait for college). None of mine were D1 prospects, but then again in 8 years of HS in NH I can probably count the number of D1 pitchers I can recall on 1 hand (two went straight to NY Yankees training). None went to a power conference that I can recall - most were at lower tier D1 schools.  Sitting 8 seniors in one game does seem odd, but in the grand scheme of things how many games are there overall and how many innings do they play in those overall? Having 3 D1 pitchers have to watch perhaps teaches them a valuable lesson - just because they are all that and two bags of balls doesn't necessarily mean they will always be "that". Starting a freshman (son) pitcher and having him get shelled may bring his head back to earth and make him realize exactly how hard he is going to have to work in order to get a chance at a D1 scholly. Hopefully you pick this thread up again later in the season and let us know how well did the team did in the end.