High School Pitch Count

I agree that any coach - HS, college, or Pro - allowing a pitcher to throw 150 pitchers in one game is irresponsible. There is no excuse for it...and while I certainly support the Herman Edwards concept that "..you play to win.." if you can't win any other way than destroying a high school arm, then you don't deserve to coach, let alone win.

It reminds me of a game we played at Cooperstown Dreams Park during a "sweet 16" playoff game. I pulled my then twelve year old son after almost 75 pitches, feeling bad for letting him throw that many pitches after a full week of baseball, while the other team let their starting pitcher (a coach's son) throw over 130 pitches by the end of the game...we ended up winning. My son still pitches and I have to wonder if the opposing pitcher still can raise his arm over his head...what parent or coach allows that many pitches?

I have a son headed to college...if our HS coach had my son throw 150 pitches in anything other than a state semi-final or championship game, I can promise you that while I generally have stepped back from actively coaching, I would DEFINITELY be in the coach's ear about over pitching!

quote:

Originally posted by Fanof2:
I agree that any coach - HS, college, or Pro - allowing a pitcher to throw 150 pitches in one game is irresponsible. There is no excuse for it...and while I certainly support the Herman Edwards concept that "..you play to win.." if you can't win any other way than destroying a high school arm, then you don't deserve to coach, let alone win.

It reminds me of a game we played at Cooperstown Dreams Park during a "sweet 16" playoff game. I pulled my then twelve year old son after almost 75 pitches, feeling bad for letting him throw that many pitches after a full week of baseball, while the other team let their starting pitcher (a coach's son) throw over 130 pitches by the end of the game...we ended up winning. My son still pitches and I have to wonder if the opposing pitcher still can raise his arm over his head...what parent or coach allows that many pitches?

I have a son headed to college...if our HS coach had my son throw 150 pitches in anything other than a state semi-final or championship game, I can promise you that while I generally have stepped back from actively coaching, I would DEFINITELY be in the coach's ear about over pitching!

quote:

Originally posted by Fanof2:

quote:

Originally posted by Fanof2:
I agree that any coach - HS, college, or Pro - allowing a pitcher to throw 150 pitches in one game is irresponsible. There is no excuse for it...and while I certainly support the Herman Edwards concept that "..you play to win.." if you can't win any other way than destroying a high school arm, then you don't deserve to coach, let alone win.

It reminds me of a game we played at Cooperstown Dreams Park during a "sweet 16" playoff game. I pulled my then twelve year old son after almost 75 pitches, feeling bad for letting him throw that many pitches after a full week of baseball, while the other team let their starting pitcher (a coach's son) throw over 130 pitches by the end of the game...we ended up winning. My son still pitches and I have to wonder if the opposing pitcher still can raise his arm over his head...what parent or coach allows that many pitches?

I have a son headed to college...if our HS coach had my son throw 150 pitches in anything other than a state semi-final or championship game, I can promise you that while I generally have stepped back from actively coaching, I would DEFINITELY be in the coach's ear about over pitching!

I understand the reasoning for pitch counts, especially early in the season. However, I think the one key factor as to why we have evolved, over the course of many years into pitch counts, is that the boys simply don't throw enough, beginning when they are younger. I recognize this is counterintuitive to the above statements, but it's no less true. Destroying an arm begs the question as to what shape the arm is in. Different individuals are more or less prepared than others and should be treated as such. Just because one young man threw 150 pitches "this early in the season", and someone doesn't agree with it, doesn't mean its wrong. Perhaps, the young man threw three indoor bullpens per week, throughout the winter! I would say that person might be able to handle an increased work load, compared to someone who did not.

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Originally posted by GoHeels: Perhaps, the young man threw three indoor bullpens per week, throughout the winter! I would say that person might be able to handle an increased work load, compared to someone who did not.

Some of the articles I had read suggest that a pitcher's arm needs a few months off completely from throwing to protect it.

It appears that the VHSL may be looking at pitch counts. Something I read within the past few months had comments that the VHSL did not want to get into actual pitch counting, as it might be too difficult (which I could not understand how counting might be too difficult). However, the agenda for the February 2012 executive committee contained a proposal to modify the existing pitching limitations as follows:

56‐1‐1 Pitching Regulations (Baseball) (Submitted by the Sports Medicine Advisory Committee)

Current:
"56‐1‐1 Pitching Regulations‐A pitcher shall not pitch in more than ten (10) innings in
any two consecutive calendar days. Pitching one ball or more in any one inning is considered
as having pitched an inning. If a game is called due to weather or any other reason, innings
pitched by any player in such game shall be counted. Exception‐If a player is pitching in a
district, region or state tournament game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may
finish such a tie game regardless of the number of innings, provided (1) he did not pitch the
previous day or in the first game of a double header on the same day and (2) the tie game
does not extend into a subsequent day."

Proposed:

"A pitcher may pitch in a maximum of nine innings in one day but not more than fifteen innings in any seven day period.

If a pitcher pitches in one inning for four consecutive days that pitcher shall have one calendar day of rest from competition pitching beginning with the day following the fourth consecutive day a pitch is thrown.

If a pitcher pitches in two or three innings in one day that pitcher shall have one calendar day of rest from competition pitching beginning with the day following the first day a pitch is thrown.

If a pitcher pitches four or five innings in one day that pitcher shall have two calendar days of rest from competition pitching beginning with the day following the first day a pitch is thrown.

If a pitcher pitches six or seven innings in one day that pitcher shall have three calendar days of rest from competition pitching beginning with the day following the first day a pitch is thrown.

If a pitcher pitches in eight or nine innings in one day that pitcher shall have four calendar days of rest from competition pitching beginning with the day following the first day a pitch is thrown.
‐
For the purposes of this rule, delivery of one pitch constitutes having pitched in one inning.
This limitation applies to regular season as well as post season play.

Rationale – The former pitching regulations presented the opportunity for short and long term health and safety issues for student athletes. These new pitching regulations provide a more defined rest period for high school pitchers which mirror considerations offered by other baseball groups.

Staff recommends approval."

I haven't yet been able to locate information on what action was taken on the proposal.

quote:

Originally posted by GoHeels:


I understand the reasoning for pitch counts, especially early in the season. However, I think the one key factor as to why we have evolved, over the course of many years into pitch counts, is that the boys simply don't throw enough, beginning when they are younger. I recognize this is counterintuitive to the above statements, but it's no less true. Destroying an arm begs the question as to what shape the arm is in. Different individuals are more or less prepared than others and should be treated as such. Just because one young man threw 150 pitches "this early in the season", and someone doesn't agree with it, doesn't mean its wrong. Perhaps, the young man threw three indoor bullpens per week, throughout the winter! I would say that person might be able to handle an increased work load, compared to someone who did not.

GoHeels - let's take that argument on face value for a moment, that the pitcher was better conditioned, thus able to throw more pitches without stress - its still incredibly inefficient pitching if you have to throw an average of nearly 22 pitches an inning for seven innings! That's going full count to every batter and then some! That's IS NOT what I want my SP to be throwing. And it's not an effective way to set yourself up to win the game.

So conditioning or not, when the pitcher has to throw that many pitches it tells me it's not effective pitching!

Sborz's outing would be allowed under the proposed rule change. For what it's worth, another article had him at 89 pitches against Madison. That makes 13 Ks even more impressive btw.

FWIW I dont think 140 pitches spread out that way over 4 days is putting a kid like Sborz in harms' way. It would be one thing if he were used that way all the time, but thats not the case.

I have heard that Dan Hudson of Princess Anne threw 168 pitches in the 2005 state championship game.

quote:

Originally posted by Fanof2:

quote:

Originally posted by GoHeels:


I understand the reasoning for pitch counts, especially early in the season. However, I think the one key factor as to why we have evolved, over the course of many years into pitch counts, is that the boys simply don't throw enough, beginning when they are younger. I recognize this is counterintuitive to the above statements, but it's no less true. Destroying an arm begs the question as to what shape the arm is in. Different individuals are more or less prepared than others and should be treated as such. Just because one young man threw 150 pitches "this early in the season", and someone doesn't agree with it, doesn't mean its wrong. Perhaps, the young man threw three indoor bullpens per week, throughout the winter! I would say that person might be able to handle an increased work load, compared to someone who did not.

GoHeels - let's take that argument on face value for a moment, that the pitcher was better conditioned, thus able to throw more pitches without stress - its still incredibly inefficient pitching if you have to throw an average of nearly 22 pitches an inning for seven innings! That's going full count to every batter and then some! That's IS NOT what I want my SP to be throwing. And it's not an effective way to set yourself up to win the game.

So conditioning or not, when the pitcher has to throw that many pitches it tells me it's not effective pitching!

I completely agree with you regarding the pitcher's efficiency, or lack thereof. But the basic discussion was regarding whether or not one should be allowed to throw that many pitches to begin with. I maintain that not all people are created equally. Some work harder than others, some are built differently than others, etc.

Here is a basic health question. Are people stronger for not working out, or stronger because of it?

If you would answer that any individual would be stronger for having consistently exercised, than one would have to agree that consistently exercising one's arm would then deliver a more durable, and/or stronger arm.

Arguing for pitch counts, strictly on the basis of protecting an arm, is no different than suggesting that a runner should not run, or a power lifter should not lift weights.

The more one uses a muscle the stronger it becomes, along with proper stretching, of course.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that a 12 year kid should throw 100 pitches a day either. There must be a balance between the two positions. And all of us need our rest! But my general position is simply that kids don't throw enough; whether it be 30 minutes of "catch" with Pops, or 30 minutes of long tossing, on a more regular basis.

150 should get a coach fired.

51 on Tuesday, I would think that kid could go again Friday or Saturday, wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep. But I would hope he gets longer rest before heading out there again.

went to a 13u tournament this weekend and pitchers were allowed to get 30 outs over 2 days. saw some very talented kids throw a boatload of pitches, one who had thrown 90 Wed. for his middle school team. Highest total I got for one kid in one day was 120. just sickening

Triple digit pitch counts should be the exception, not the norm.
And certainly, at least 4+ days of rest should be a prerequisite for allowing a pitcher to throw more than 100 pitches in one outing.
It is true that some athletes are built different than others, but in general, throwing more than 100 pitches on a regular basis will do more harm than good in the long run. There are several "soft tissues" exposed besides "muscles" in the throwing mechanics, and therefore a multitude of problems can arise.
Even the pros avoid allowing their pitchers to exceed the century mark in pitch count on a regular basis. But I would guess that is more a function of pitching performance (high pitch count = mediocre performance) than concern over their arm investments.

Hypothesis: Pitches thrown are negatively correlated with performance. Days of rest are positively correlated with performance.

Conclusion: There is a negative relationship between past pitches thrown and future performance that is virtually linear. The impact of the cumulative pitching load is larger than the impact of a single game. Rest days do not appear to have a large impact on performance. However, given that few pitchers in the sample pitched after less than three days of rest, the results should not be extrapolated to shorter rest periods.

Relevance: This study supports the popular notion that high pitching loads can dampen future performance; however, because the effect is small, pitch-count benchmarks have limited use for maintaining performance and possibly preventing injury.

http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1355247

Be thankful you aren't the parent of young Mr. Gibbs...

WaPo published an article (5/2/12) on the VHSL proposed inning restrictions (not pitch count restrictions):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...IQA2DnSxT_story.html

quote:

Originally posted by NOVABBall13:
http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1355247

Be thankful you aren't the parent of young Mr. Gibbs...

NOVABBall13, I read the article and makes me sick...For 8 years now while both of my boys have come up thru HS school, I have seen coaches misusing Pitchers...shame!

where are the parents? My sons senior year, second pitching appearance of the season and he was at 90+ pitches in the 5th inning, I went and told the coach to either pull him now or I would pull him forever. I know coaches get caught up in the heat of the moment and may not be thinking straight but the parent for D**** sure should be thinking of the well being of the young man.

rejected
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/...itations-ar-1888578/

Bob Stratton, the athletic director at Hanover High School and a former baseball coach at Atlee and Mills Godwin, said the proposed rule takes away from the strategy of the game. If a pitcher throws six innings, but has a low pitch count, he may only need two days of rest. His coach may want to bring him back after two days to throw only one inning.


This quote from the article gives you the mentality in play. Strategy? The word strategy implies that there is thought involved. Running a kid out there over and over requires no thought at all. He should have said this which is much closer to the truth...."I can squeeze a couple out of him tonight if it's tight. Besides 86 pitches isn't that much with two days rest. He should be good for 30-40 more."

quote:

If a pitcher throws six innings, but has a low pitch count, he may only need two days of rest.

2 days??? Is this a joke?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

If a pitcher throws six innings, but has a low pitch count, he may only need two days of rest.

2 days??? Is this a joke?

Not necessarily a joke, could be possible. Don't misunderstand, I am an advocate of pitch count limits (not innings limits.) But let's say, though, hypothetically, that the pitcher threw an average of 10 pitches per inning (very efficient) or sixty pitches. With two days rest, the hours between starts (assuming starting at the same time of day) would be 72 hours. At the Baseball Bash 12 or so years ago , the panel of college coaches was asked about how much they thought pitchers should rest. That panel, which included a then head coach of East Carolina and a then head coach of the University of Florida, both of whom had themselves been college pitchers, stated that a good rule of thumb is one hour of rest for each pitch thrown. Thus the two days of rest would provide enough rest for a pitcher who threw 60 pitches.

"I can squeeze a couple out of him tonight if it's tight. Besides 86 pitches isn't that much with two days rest. He should be good for 30-40 more."[/QUOTE]

What are you thinking??? 86 pitches isn't that much with two days rest? When do you see ANY major league starter after throwing 86 pitches throw in 2 days rest? And those players are grown with fully developed bodies. Now a HS kid 15-18 who is still growing will definetly have some side effects with you use this philosophy.

stated that a good rule of thumb is one hour of rest for each pitch thrown. Thus the two days of rest would provide enough rest for a pitcher who threw 60 pitches.[/QUOTE]

Lets think this all the way through. I'll by the 1 hour rest per pitch but lets add in a day for preperation, long toss, flat ground, and short bull pen. I wouldn't want to go from game to game with out checking and ensuring the health and performance of a pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by rlscosta:
"I can squeeze a couple out of him tonight if it's tight. Besides 86 pitches isn't that much with two days rest. He should be good for 30-40 more."

What are you thinking??? 86 pitches isn't that much with two days rest? When do you see ANY major league starter after throwing 86 pitches throw in 2 days rest? And those players are grown with fully developed bodies. Now a HS kid 15-18 who is still growing will definetly have some side effects with you use this philosophy.[/QUOTE]

I was paraphrasing the comment of the former coach quoted in the article. I do believe that there is too much of this type of thinking out there particularly when a team has horse and then a dropoff.

luv baseball,
I completely agree. Coaches forget that these "Pitchers" often also play the field when not on the mound and many times, these guys are 2B, SS or 3B on a team which means these kids are throwing a ton other days they are not on the mound.

A pitch count has been installed in little league a few years back and I believe it should be used at the HS level. No HS pitcher should be allowed to throw more than 100 in a game. If you can't get theu 7 innings with 100 pitches, your pitcher needs to work on efficiency. The future of this awesome game lies on these same kids.

quote:

Originally posted by rlscosta: If you can't get theu 7 innings with 100 pitches, your pitcher needs to work on efficiency.

Not always true. Sometimes the reason a pitcher needs to throw more than an efficient number of pitches in an inning can rest with a defense committing errors. We have seen some of that in the Southeastern District this year. In one game I watched the pitcher strike out four batters in one inning.

I'd have more respect for the decision makers if they came out with what I suspect the truth is....they don't know how to keep track of it without it being a PITA.

Think about HS Coaches having any responsibility to track what the other team's pitcher did and registering it on some database somewhere and then having someone pay attention to it for violations. I can hear a lot of coaches and AD's saying something along these lines "Sounds like a lot of BS work for nothing. I know my players and this isn't that big of a deal..... leave us alone"

The problem for them is that if they came out and said it's too hard or a problem to track then people would say that's a lousy explanation for not taking better care of kids arms. So we get hit with the nonsense that is coming out of Mr. Stratton's mouth. It's his job to put lipstick on this pig but it's still a big fat smelly pig. OINK!!!

regarding the horse and a dropoff...went to a Tuesday night game about a week or so ago and watched the horse, an extremely talented soph whose name will be mentioned in this forum the next 2 years, throw 120+ pitches in a big district game. called my buddy to let him know that his kid would not be facing the horse in their game with that team that Friday. I get a call that the dropoff #2 struggled early and the horse was brought in to keep them in the game. this is done way out here in the westernish part of the state way too much

Sounds like there's a good chance he'll be a broke down horse two years from now and we'll never hear about him.

I'm not sure that ABSOLUTE limits are the right solution, but I am sure that the debate on this subject will continue for a long time.

I believe that players and coaches could do a better job of being more sensitive to the issue, and maybe make "strategic" decisions using some kind of loose limits or guidelines, while considering the context of the game. Here's what I recently suggested to my son:

1. When you reach 70-80 pitches, assess where you are in the game. Inning? Lead? Losing badly? No-hitter going? Etc. If the game situation and your performance merits continuing, go for it.
2. When you reach 100-110 pitches, again assess game situation. One more out for a complete game? Or another whole inning? Is the score tight; one run lead? Going for a no-hitter? Where is the opponent in their lineup? Would a fresh arm be more effective? At this point, you should be leaning towards relief, and not continuing.
3. When (if) you reach 120 pitches, get off the mound. Period.