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One of the things I'm dealing with in taking over the AD job is that we have several sports where our athletes participate on travel / rec / whatever teams at the same time. There have been instances where our athletes will miss a high school practice to go practice / play with the "other" team. I realize this is a severe issue with the coach and I will address that once I take over but I feel an across the board policy for all sports would be more effective.

So my question is - does your school have a policy on this or does each individual sport / coach have their own policy?

My principal has given me permission to look into creating a policy as long as I research what others do in regards to this.

I would also like your opinions on this overall as well. To start the discussion here is my argument.

I strongly believe in commitment and through that I feel that all players who make the decision to go out for a team should respect that team until it's season is over. I'm a big believer in choice and putting that responsibility on others so they cannot have the recourse to come back and blame the school if they are not happy with their choice. Each team (even the "individual sports" have a team concept) has a range of players in terms of their ability and talent. Some are the studs and some are the role players and there are even some whose sole job is to supply the practice against team for the frontline players. I'm looking to protect that kid who is the last one on the team. That kid - male or female - shows up to practice everyday and works as hard as they can to prepare the frontline players with very little actual game time. Their only claim to fame is to say they were a part of the team who won _______. In 20 years when they take their own kid to the gym to watch a basketball game he can look up into the rafters and point at a banner and tell his kid "look at that banner - I was a member of that team who won _____". It doesn't matter to that small child if his father or mother never stepped foot on the field / court. In their eyes their parent is amazing. So it's not fair to that last player on the team when the studs go off to play on other teams and get hurt which hurts the team from winning ______.

Best example of this - this year our starting second baseman in softball got hurt playing travel team on the weekend. She missed about two or three HS games because of this injury. That is not fair or right to put the rest of the team in that position.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against travel anything because I know there are some great teams who do a tremendous job in helping kids. I just think they need to realize their place is the offseason / summer.

I would like to come up with a policy that says if an athlete is found to be participating on a high school team and an outside team they will be brought into a meeting (with parents) and told they have two days to make a decision as to which team they stay with. They want to stay on the high school team then they have to give up playing on the outside team until the high school season(s) are over. If they choose to stay with the outside team then turn their equipment in and I wish them best of luck. This should be their choice but there needs to be consequences for that choice. You can't always get what you want in life and this should be one of them due to the factors I've explained and many others like overuse injuries.

I know what the main arguement against my policy will be is that how can the school tell a family what to do in their own time. Well like I said the school isn't saying "you HAVE to quit". It's saying if you wish to be a member of this HS team these are the requirements you have to meet. Now it's their choice and not the schools. I realize it's a semantic argument but I feel it's a valid one. Now if it's football season and dad and son want to go work on freethrows then by all means go right ahead. I'm not trying to stop family time but I'm trying to gain control of situations where out of control outside teams affect the integrity of the sports under my command.

Now the give part in this is that summer is open for grabs. I feel that summer is about playing on the best possible team / competition you can find. If two sports are going to share an athlete then there needs to be a meeting where a schedule is made out so that athlete can participate equally in both sports with some rest in there.

One last example is that if a girl plays volleyball for the HS in the fall but does not play basketball in the winter. Then she should be able to play travel volleyball in the winter because she's not on a HS team. My policy is about fulfilling a commitment that is already there in pursuing a state championship.

One of our football coaches is from South Carolina and he said that SC has a state rule against this other participation. I know this will be a huge fight and radical change as to what's going on but I'm willing to fight that fight. I'm even going to have to fight some of my own coaches because they are going to gripe and complain they will lose players over this. My rebuttal will be to do your job - get in the hallways to recruit kids and coach the hell out of them.

So what do you guys think?

Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. Thomas Jefferson

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In Illinois you can't play the same sport as a travel sport as the high school sport.

For example, there was a kid from my high school who as a freshman participated in the punt, pass, and kick competition put on by Gatorade and the NFL each fall. He was also on the freshman football team. They had to forfeit 4 or 5 games because he was deemed to have been ineligible. (He now punts at the University of New Mexico)

For this reason, we don't run into these problems so much. Around here, it is the kid who thinks they need to play club volleyball while also running track, playing s****r or softball, etc. In my experience it tends to be more female athletes than males but the males are becoming a greater issue especially now as the US S****r is looking at becoming a 10 month ordeal..
Hey Coach,
Here's California guidelines...

OUTSIDE COMPETITION (IN-SEASON)
A member of a high school baseball team may NOT, during his or her season of sport, compete for an outside team in the sport of baseball. A season of sport is defined as that period which begins with a student's first interscholastic competition (non-league, tournament or league game) and ends with that student's last interscholastic contest (non-league, tournament, league or CIF-SS playoff game).

more later...
Yeah, this has got to be one of the toughest issues to deal with. Not only are there outside sports and activities but also so many other school-related activities that create conflict. Over the last few years, we've had baseball players also involved in band, choir, mock rock, mock trial, athletic training, welding competition, 4H, cycle club, college visits, various off-site testing dates, rec basketball, music lessons, MMA and more, all during the season. We have gotten things turned in the right direction regarding commitment expectations but it hasn't been easy shifting the culture. If I'm in your shoes, here are some things I would consider...

-establish fall, winter and spring seasons specific by date, including practice start dates.

-coaches must wait until the previous sport has completed it’s entire schedule before allowing a student to attend a team practice or game for the subsequent sport.

-allow out-of-season practices if desired but restrict players that are participating in another in-season sport.

-provide coaches with a template form that serves as consistent communication to the student athlete as to what the commitment expectations are as well as what the practice days and times will be.

-coordinate and communicate with coaches the "issue dates" for these forms to go out to all prospective student athletes and parents (to assure timely communication).

-with this info, a student athlete and parent can determine what other activities they may feasibly be able to schedule around the sports schedule.

-require all coaches to cooperate and agree to work together to...
..not pressure kids into focusing on just their sport
..agree upon a shared summer schedule that is fair to all
..show support toward all sports activities at the school

-regarding outside sports, use something like the California rule. Perhaps allow for exceptions only when approved by coach or AD.
Thanks guys and Bulldog you're right in that it's more of a female athlete issue than a male one. But I can see it becoming an issue eventually.

I've been talking to some of the other AD's in our district and one said a travel team told a player to work towards graduating early so they can play with them more. While this is more of an isolated incident right now I don't see the point in allowing it to grow and fester until it becomes a huge problem that is harder to fight.

cabbagedad that is some good stuff and most of it I already thought of but the other items I'm going to borrow heavily when I start to put my ideas on paper to form a policy.

Love to hear from others across the country.
quote:
Thanks guys and Bulldog you're right in that it's more of a female athlete issue than a male one. But I can see it becoming an issue eventually.


Here's one for you that my dad told me last week.. Like we've discussed on here before, USA S****r is looking at becoming a 10 month ordeal which means those kids will not be allowed to play any type of school sport especially s****r.

Apparently our high school has 6 kids trying out for this club team so they won't be playing for the school in the fall. But they have asked the s****r coach if they could work out with the school team all summer to get ready for their club season!
Geez that is ridiculous. When are the tryouts for these US club teams because what if you have a kid who wants to try out and skips the HS season and is then cut? He just now missed out on a HS season just to get cut and miss out on playing. Or what if he made the US club team and plays for them then the next year he doesn't play HS because that is the rule and then gets cut?

All this is assuming the tryouts are after the HS season.
In my area, outside participation is not allowed during the season unless a waiver is granted for special circumstances such as participation in "national championships" or U.S. national team events. Some s****r players are starting to skip their school seasons in order to play with their club teams in their college exposure showcase tournaments. I haven't heard of this in baseball though.
Kaizen - thank you and if you don't mind is that a school, district or state policy? Also, could you tell me more where you're from? You can PM me if you don't want everyone to know where you're from. If you don't want to tell me that's fine. I understand message boards are about anonymity (I think I just butchered the spelling of that word).

Will I would agree with you on that it should be a no brainer but not everyone thinks like that. As AD I want to protect the integrity of our sporting teams. Sadly if I leave this up to each individual coach then we will have some who will allow it to happen. If I can make this a school / district policy then that choice is out of their hands and I'm willing to take the heat for it from the community because I feel that's my job.
Coach, some great ideas so far. I applaud your focus on commitment. In regard to injury avoidance as a reason to prevent outside participation seems to be overreaching and unrealistic. You can never protect student athletes altogether. We have had several of our baseball players miss most of this season due to non sports related injuries. I think having the coaches build the sense of community and commitment with each team is the route to go rather than blanket policies. I know of good athletes that have dropped off of teams and out of sports because of the overly restrictive policies. My son plays basketball in the winter season but also likes to snowboard. While I fear an injury I still let him enjoy his youth but only after a long lecture about his responsibility to his team-mates... no unnecessary risks. For some that might mean don't walk out the front door but for others it might mean no jumps over ten feet on the ski slopes.
Our state allows participation as long as it doesn't interfere with the team they have committed to. The following is a link to our state athletic handbook. I Hope you find it helpful.

http://www.mpssaa.org/assets/p...ndbook%202011-12.pdf
Last edited by mcmmccm
quote:
In regard to injury avoidance as a reason to prevent outside participation seems to be overreaching and unrealistic.


Yes, but it is well-documented that overuse injuries are HIGHLY preventable and is the biggest cause of injury. And also by playing a club sport it is setting up an injury which would be detrimental to the school sport..
Coach2709, I am in Honolulu. There are two leagues here, one for private schools (ILH) and one for public schools (OIA). Both have policies against outside participation during the school season. The ILH policy allows exceptions for national championship/national team events. The OIA handles it on a case-by-case basis when an athlete submits an exemption request to the school principal.
We had a pitcher last yr tell HS coach he could not pitch anymore on HS team due to arm hurting/injury when he was in fact pitching on his travel team at the same time. Kid/dad had no team loyalty IMO. Didn't care about the other pitchers who had to pick up the slack due to his lie.
If you tell kids they cannot play travel at same time just be aware that the travel team may be better than scool team and they may be getting better coaching/exposure out of it and they may walk from HS team. I would have my son play on the better team who is helping him be the best player than he can be. Sometimes it's not the HS team.
mcmmccm - thank you for the link and information. I understand what you're saying in that you can't avoid injuries because they can happen anytime. Like Bulldog says about overuse injuries I agree with that research but it's not enough for me to justify putting this into place.

While injuries is a factor I think you have to look at it from an opportunity aspect. I don't want a kid to shut down and not enjoy doing things like your son enjoys snowboarding. If an athlete gets hurt from playing on the high school team - deal with it. If an athlete gets hurt from shooting hoops in the driveway with dad - deal with it. If an athlete gets hurt walking up the steps - deal with it. Life does happen but why tempt fate by playing on another team. The example playboo2011 is perfect for why rules like this should exist.

It's a tricky slope to try and navigate which is why I'm on here and contacting people all over the state to try and figure out what they do. I'm a huge hater of blanket policies as well which is why I'm trying to find out how other people handle this. I want to educate and inform myself to try and get all aspects / angles before I move forward. I'm probably about six months away from even putting pen to paper and I may realize it's not worth it. I love high school sports and I'm a huge supporter of it but the more I look around my area and read on here it just seems to be losing value. I understand why because there are some idiots out there but the flip side is just as true - there are some travel teams out there who don't have the best interests in kids either. I feel that there is a time and place for everything. The spring should be for high school sports because there are so many rules in place to limit what we can do. I can understand why they are there. But travel teams can go all summer and fall with virtually no regulations. That can be a slippery slope if not careful.

Kaizen thank you for telling me where you're from. I like what Hawaii does with the no participation except for a waiver / exception. There needs to be some sort of wiggle room while still holding kids to a commitment. I let my 2B go play basketball in an open college tryout because he had a chance to play college ball. Who am I to stop an opportunity like that? But to lose a player or not have him at full health because of something that could be done after the season is wrong. Maybe I'm wrong.

playball2011 I understand what you're saying by playing on the better team. I don't blame you and if the high school team is the weaker team then don't play at all. Go play travel ball and commit to it. Honestly, I wouldn't like your decision but I would respect it because you wouldn't be splitting your time.

I hope I'm at least making sense even if you think I'm wrong Confused
I am of the opinion that the player should commit to 1 team, be it the HS team or the TB team. What is being taught to the kid as far as life lessons? Is he being taught the "team first" concept or the "me first" concept? Pick one, show some loyalty and dedication and give that team 100%. High School team experiences are limited....travel ball experiences are unlimited in todays environment. My son will have the opportunity to play on an "elite" style team this summer and experience all the showcase style tourny's. His HS coach is supportive and encourages the kids of the higher skill level to do so, it actual gives him a chance to "develop" the younger players by allowing them more attention and play time(during the summer). There is no chance in h..e..dbl hockey sticks, that I could convince my kid to NOT play for his HS team, because he CHOOSES to do so for the right reasons for him.

Coach, while it is a dificult position you are in, if you can't or choose not to put a policy in place, can't you "highly encourage" each Head Coach to institute their own "Team Policy" to prevent kids from playing for a similar outside organization and have them base it on a "conflict of interest"
Last edited by lefthookdad
Coach, It sounds like your students and parents are blessed to have you at the helm. (Or soon to be)

I understand it is very difficult to make a one size fits all policy. I would lean towards the mandatory waiver policy that requires a team first commitment. If the coach knows about the other participation and can help manage it along with the accountability I think you end up with the best of both worlds. If the athlete doesn't disclose/apply for the waiver, he's out. If they lie about anything, even with the waiver, he's out. I think there should also be varying levels based on Frosh, JV or varsity. Ie. My son played on the 9th grade basketball team with no post season, so snowboarding wasn't as risky to the team. When he's a senior on Varsity and the team is working towards a post season run things will change. The waiver option also allows for some judgment calls where the coach can work differently with the starters vs. a third string player. Ie. If the number seven pitcher could gain some much needed experience elsewhere that eventually helps the program.
Maybe I missed this but can I ask...which baseball season are you talking about...during the normal school season; kids should commit to school team...once that season is over, the coaches should back away from the kids and let him go and play with his summer team...as a parent what is frustrating is when the school coach thinks he owns your kid and demands you pass up summer ball to play on the summer school team...inferior team against inferior competition...then threats are made against kid that if he doesn't then don't expect to play during school season...
lefthookdad - sounds like your son's coach has the right idea. As for your idea about "highly encouraging" each head coach that is where I'm heading until I can make an informed decision.

mcmmccm - thank you very much and now we're talking. I could live with that and think it's a very good balance between commitment and being able to do more.

OA511 I'm talking about the normal high school season. Roughly Feb (or whenever a state starts) to May (or whenever it ends) so we're talking about 3 months out of the year where travel teams don't touch athletes who play high school ball. In your example I'm not in favor of that at all. A high school coach (or any coach to be perfectly honest) should not have this much control over a player. I think it's a good thing for players to be exposed to several different types of coaching styles in a year. Hope this helps explain where I'm coming from better.

Thanks guys - some great stuff here
Our system is easy. During season you are not allowed to play travel ball. If you are caught doing so (even practice) you are released from the team.

Outside of the season you are not allowed to play high school ball, if you play travel ball. This allows the younger guys to get more field time in front of the coaches. They are encouraged to play travel ball outside of the season though.

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