Hit and Run/Stolen Base

quote:

Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
I just read the MLB rule on Stolen Bases. Am I correct that advancing one bag (first to second) on a hit and run where the batter is put out at first is NOT a stolen base?

I just want to make sure my interpretation is correct or perhaps there is some other rule on it.

Thanks.

Congratulations on taking the time to look up something for yourself! It allows you to ask a much better question, because you’re asking about something specific rather than very general.

You have indeed interpreted it correctly. The only time it would be interpreted differently, is if the next base were reached safely prior to the ball being put into play.

Thanks for the reply. I have been on here long enough to know that one will be scolded for asking a question which is easily researched.
Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
Thanks for the reply. I have been on here long enough to know that one will be scolded for asking a question which is easily researched.
Thanks again.

I guess scolding is a good word for it. Its not that anyone doesn’t want to help, but it really lifts the level of everyone when people do what you did. That way, you’ll be able to pass what you learned on to others, and I know you learned something reading it for yourself.

One thing I haven't been able to find in the rules what happens on a hit and run when a runner advances two bases on a putout.

Example: R1 is running on pitch and batter hits a slow roller up 3B line and R1 rounds second and continues to 3rd while the play is made at 1st on Batter. No play at 3rd on R1 becasue noone covered bag fast enough. SS covered 2nd, catcher held plate and pitcher and 3rd made play on ball.

It's only happened a few times and I have scored it FC because there was no mishandling of the ball and I couldn't find anything in the Stolen Base or Error rules to support anything else.

Sort of like a SAC Fly RBI if a runner tags and scores from second base because OF crashes into fence and falls down after catch and ball is not thrown away.

Luv - As described, this is a FC.

This type of play happens a lot in softball, where R1 runs on the pitch, the batter bunts to F5 with the hope that R1 ends up at 3rd. When successful, it's a SAC bunt for the batter, no SB, but the runner advanced two bases on the SAC (just like your SF).

As Stats pointed out, if R1 makes it to second (successfully steals) before the ball is put in play, you can give him a SB otherwise its just a FC.

quote:

The only time it would be interpreted differently, is if the next base were reached safely prior to the ball being put into play.

Can you cite to a rule on this? Because this is contrary to how I've always understood it.

Do I understand you to say that if the runner takes off and reaches the next base before the ball is struck on that same pitch, he gets a SB? (Hard to imagine someone THAT fast, but still, I've always treated this like he just got a very large lead on a ball put in play.)

My understanding is we're talking about continuous play on a single pitcher delivery to the plate, not a succession of pitches. Or did I misunderstand you?

Think about this from the point of view of the playing rules. By common interpretation, a runner does not acquire the next base unless he reaches it before the pitcher commits to home. For example, if a runner somehow were to get a huge jump and reach second base before the batter hits the pitch, and the batted ball is foul, the runner has to return to first. A more likely event is a steal of home with two out. Even if the runner touches home before the batter swings, he does not score if the batter is out. The play began when the pitcher committed to pitch.

So from a scoring point of view, it doesn't make sense for the scorekeeper to award credit for a stolen base if the the runner actually has to return to first. Consistency demands that the runner only get credit for a stolen base if he reaches the base before the pitcher commits to home.

ETA:
Here's a situation from the FED Casebook, which adds some verisimilitude to my assertion of "common interpretation".
2.28.3 SITUATION A: R1 is on third and R2 on first with no outs. F1 contacts the pitcher’s plate and assumes the set position stance. As he begins his stretch, R2 advances toward second base attempting to steal. F1 realizes R2 is stealing but he does not throw to second, fearing that R1 will break for home and score. F1 completes his stretch, coming to a pause with the ball in both hands in front of his body. R2 reaches second and rounds it, after which F1 delivers the ball to B3, who fouls a pitch into the stands. RULING: R2 is allowed to remain on second because he was there prior to the time of the pitch. The definition of “time of the pitch” determines the base to which R1 is entitled.

quote:

Consistency demands that the runner only get credit for a stolen base if he reaches the base before the pitcher commits to home.

ETA:
Here's a situation from the FED Casebook, which adds some verisimilitude to my assertion of "common interpretation".
2.28.3 SITUATION A: R1 is on third and R2 on first with no outs. F1 contacts the pitcher’s plate and assumes the set position stance. As he begins his stretch, R2 advances toward second base attempting to steal. F1 realizes R2 is stealing but he does not throw to second, fearing that R1 will break for home and score. F1 completes his stretch, coming to a pause with the ball in both hands in front of his body. R2 reaches second and rounds it, after which F1 delivers the ball to B3, who fouls a pitch into the stands. RULING: R2 is allowed to remain on second because he was there prior to the time of the pitch. The definition of “time of the pitch” determines the base to which R1 is entitled.

Shouldn't this be scored 'defensive indifference' and not a 'stolen base'?

quote:

Shouldn't this be scored 'defensive indifference' and not a 'stolen base'?

I would describe it as a stolen base because R3 is a real threat to score. But that wasn't the point of my post, which was to disagree with JMoff's interpretation described earlier in the thread.

Where the runner is when the batter strikes the ball is not relevant; where the runner is when the pitcher commits to the plate is.

From the perspective of how the scorer accounts for the base acquired, it most certainly is relevant. Its not up to the scorer to determine where the runner is for purposes of safe, out or acquired bases. That’s up to the umpire because it’s a game conduct decision. Once that decision is made however, how it’s scored is an entirely different issue. The scorer has no say-so in whether a runner acquires a base or not, and an umpire has no say-so in how its scored once he declares the base to have been acquired.

How about this. If a runner from 1st reaches 2nd prior to the batter putting the ball in play, then runs past the base, and the ball is hit to the SS. Can he step on 2nd for a force, or will he have to tag the runner to put him out?

Unless I read something from MLB telling me different, its gonna be a stolen base, every one of the maybe one or two more times in my life I'll see it happen again.

Midlo & 3Finger:
You guys bring up very interesting perspectives. I was commenting on the exception that Nats posted, which appeared to make sense.

I don't have a rule citing. Frankly I've never looked this up because I've never seen a case where a runner acquired second base on a steal prior to the ball being put in play or the pitcher committing to the plate.

As Nats says, as a scorer I'd simply call it as I saw it. If the runner acquires second base prior to the ball being put in play and holds the base after an infield GB, I'd probably call it a SB. Again, I have never actually seen that happen and have always scored it a FC.

Interesting comment by 3Finger, I would've guessed (again without a rules check), that a runner stealing home, who crosses the plate prior to a pitch resulting in (for example) a called strike three, wouldn't score a run?

I'm here to learn, so any discussion on this topic is appreciated.

Thanks!

quote:

If a runner from 1st reaches 2nd prior to the batter putting the ball in play, then runs past the base, and the ball is hit to the SS. Can he step on 2nd for a force, or will he have to tag the runner to put him out?

He'll have to tag him. But so what? If the runner reaches 2nd before the base is tagged but after the ball is put in play, he also would have to be tagged to be put out. Either way: touches 2nd after the ball is put into play or before it is put into play, the rule is the same. It's a force play in either case. This situation is a red herring as a potential justification for your point of view.

I doubt we'll ever see it in MLB play, and a scorekeeper can, as you say, rule it any way he wants. Doesn't make the ruling right, though.

Here's the nub of the issue: Crediting a runner who has been forced to the next base with a stolen base is, well, wrong.

Consider: two outs, 3-2 count. The pitch turns out to be ball 4, but R1 had left very early and has the base "stolen" before the catcher even gets off a throw. Nobody is going to credit him with a stolen base, or even consider the possiblity. Are you going to credit him with one if he touches 2nd before the pitch reaches the catcher's mitt?

JMoff,
If the runner from third crosses the plate before the pitcher commits to home (which will usually be at least 1 second before the ball arrives at the plate), he would score. But if he touches the plate anytime after that, and the batter or a forced runner makes the 3rd out, the run does not score. If you're really interested in this point, post in the umpire forum. Ten years ago, this was a controversial topic on umpire boards. However, you can infer this point by considering the FED caseplay above.

Back to luv's example--maybe I'm missing something, but the play would just be scored a groundout 5 to 3 with the runner advancing two bases. By the same token, sometimes a runner advances two and other times just one base on a single or a sacrifice fly. A groundout is the same thing. I don't feel there is any fielder's choice involved in the scoring.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
He'll have to tag him. But so what? If the runner reaches 2nd before the base is tagged but after the ball is put in play, he also would have to be tagged to be put out. Either way: touches 2nd after the ball is put into play or before it is put into play, the rule is the same. It's a force play in either case. This situation is a red herring as a potential justification for your point of view.

I doubt we'll ever see it in MLB play, and a scorekeeper can, as you say, rule it any way he wants. Doesn't make the ruling right, though.

Here's the nub of the issue: Crediting a runner who has been forced to the next base with a stolen base is, well, wrong.

How is it a force play if the runner had already acquired the bag?

You’re making the mistake of not considering the timing issue, but that ok.

quote:

Consider: two outs, 3-2 count. The pitch turns out to be ball 4, but R1 had left very early and has the base "stolen" before the catcher even gets off a throw. Nobody is going to credit him with a stolen base, or even consider the possiblity. Are you going to credit him with one if he touches 2nd before the pitch reaches the catcher's mitt?

Chances are, if I saw him reach 2nd safely, I’d give him the SB.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:
Back to luv's example--maybe I'm missing something, but the play would just be scored a groundout 5 to 3 with the runner advancing two bases. By the same token, sometimes a runner advances two and other times just one base on a single or a sacrifice fly. A groundout is the same thing. I don't feel there is any fielder's choice involved in the scoring.

As you can see, OBR has given it its own rule, and 3 sub-rules as well, showing that what you feel is not correct. And that is backed up by the comment in 10.12(a). If every base MUST be accounted for, it has to be accounted for with something, and in this case it’s a FC.

But one must keep in mind that there’s no rule requirement for keeping a record of every base reached, so its really a moot point whether its done or not. However, as one who has been a statistician, which also involves inputting the data, without those markings on the sheet, it can make it difficult to figger out what took place.

2.00 FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).

OBR Rule 10.12(a)(7) Comment: The official scorer shall apply this rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. For example, the official scorer shall charge an error to an outfielder whose accurate throw to second base hits the base and caroms back into the outfield,
thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance, because every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for.