Hit by pitch question

Were any of the pitches in the strike zone?  If they were and the ump allowed the hitter to take first then yes he did mess up.  But if they are legally in the box and the pitch is not in the strike zone then there is nothing the ump can do except watch for the hitter purposefully leaning into a pitch.  It sounds like he recognized that they did try that on one hitter but it was also ball four.

What age level and rule set were you playing under?

A few issues at play...

If the PU felt the players were leaning into the pitch he can ignore the contact and call the pitch ball/strike.  Usually doing this once is enough to get them to stop leaning.

I don't know what level of play you are talking about, but I would expect if kids were being told to do this that the PU should warn the HC.  If that doesn't stop it - I'd go over his head to whatever board there was with a complaint.

Crowding the plate is a legitimate strategy. Legal - nothing wrong with it.  However, you can't instruct kids to intentionally get hit. That's dangerous and irresponsible of the coach. Do kids do it on their own? Sure, but that's different from them being told to do it by a coach.

How would he feel if one of those he told to lean in took one in the elbow or face?

As for getting hit with a full count - technically that's a walk.  The umpire obviously felt he leaned into the contact - but it was out of the strike zone anyway.

This was a high school playoff game. So, this situation got loud and tense.

Yes, the ump should have called a strike on one of the batters well before the 4th guy got hit and put an end to the silliness.

If one kid can get away with taking one for the team, then it's gamesmanship, or whatever. But 4 in one inning was obviously a prescribed strategy.

Not our job.

That can only happen if they are indeed strikes.

There's a D3 I work often that employs this strategy. Stay close, get hit, get on. They did it very well against a nationally-ranked D3, whose coach complained up and down about it--but they were doing nothing illegal. A couple times (once in each game,) they did actually move into the pitch, but we got them on it.

Often we will hear griping about this, but the threshold for keeping a batter at the plate when he gets hit is higher than a lot of people think.

When I was coaching, we taught the kids to crowd the plate with 3-0 count.  We told them to get as close as they feel comfortable, even so much as to keep their heels on the line of the box.  At 14YO, this put them over the inside half of the plate.  But before the game, I would pull the plate ump aside and inform him of the stradegy and other "trick" plays we ran.  My kids knew that getting plunked while over the zone was a strike... but 99% of the time the pitcher chokes and throws a ball.   Most umps seemed to appreciate it.  Those that did not or seemed to be more confrontational, I told the kids to not do that this game.  Now as an ump, I think I would appreciate the "heads up" from coaches. 

That's an illegal stance and should be corrected by the umpire before the pitch.

To be legal, the stance (as the pitcher is preparing to pitch) needs to have both feet entirely within the box (and the lines are part of the box).

On the OP -- this is part of the reason NCAA regulates the size and use of elbow guards.  I don't see that the umpire did anything wrong (nor do I see where he could have done anything else).  If you don't like this strategy, then your complaint is with the coach and/or the rules makers.

Well, I was talking kids - not HS players but in any case...

It may not be your job per se, but it is your responsibility not to allow a dangerous situation to continue isn't it?

I'm not talking about crowding the plate - I'm talking about intentionally instructing players to get hit.

It takes five seconds to say, "Coach, I don't care where they line up - but somebody's gonna get hurt if the keep leaning in."

Or...

I could say nothing - watch a kid take one in the face - and just shrug it off because, "Hey - it's not my job."

First off, when it's this obvious as you're describing, a good ump will help curtail the tactic... Not by ignoring the rules, but by taking away all benefit of the doubt... Keeping guys in the box and calling inside pitches strikes.  Also, a pitcher with good control can work inside, NOT hit guys, but keep them jammed and still get strikes called.  If the nonsense continues, some selective poor control will generally be employed by pitchers to reinstate a proper level of respect by batters.

It's a lot like a first basemen who intentionally uses his foot or knee to block the runner from the base on pick off attempts. If a firstbaseman insists on doing this... He's going to find runners at first coming back to the base spikes first.  Problem solved.  BTW, I encountered a few 1Bmen doing this between maybe 11u-13u years while coaching.  They knew what they were doing, but just hadn't thought it through.  I pulled their coaches aside between innings and told them that they'd better educate their player about this before he gets himself hurt.  Most times I believe the coach had just never noticed it or thought it through himself.  On one occasion, the coach made a big deal of lecturing the kid... Leading me to believe that he had probably taught the tactic to begin with.

Coaches coach. Umpires umpire. I understand your concern, but it is misplaced.

To be legal, the stance (as the pitcher is preparing to pitch) needs to have both feet entirely within the box (and the lines are part of the box).

I disagree.  This was a specific point taught to us in NFHS classes.   As long as any part of the foot is on the line, it is considered in the box. 

OBR rules below (I couldnt find NFHS on line and have no books here)

6.03

The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box.

APPROVED RULING: The lines defining the box are within the batter’s box.

6.06

A batter is out for illegal action when—

(a) He hits a ball with one or both feet on the ground entirely outside the batter’s box.

As I read these rules and your statement... the player can stride so his heel is in the box, toes out and that is OK.  But if he lines up heels in toes out and takes no stride that is illegal?  It would seem to me that in the box or out of the box has the same definition when you take your stance or when you hit the ball.

That's where you're having issues--there is a different definition.

In his stance, both of the batter's feet need to be entirely within the box. That means they can be within or on the lines, but no part of the feet can be outside of the lines.

At contact, both of the batter's feet need to be partially within the box. That means as long as they are both within or touching any part of the line, they are legal. 

Note that in FED and NCAA, touching the plate at contact is illegal.

The ump at this game is a good guy, a dedicated ump, and very good most of the time. I've known him since he started with industrial league slowpitch and youth rec league baseball. He's worked himself up to the point that he now has his feet in the door of doing college games.

But, he tends to be a little over demonstrative in his calls, body action, etc.... He made one particularly bad call during the game though. Runners on 1st and 2nd, one out. Hard hit ball to 2B who shovels to SS who phantoms the bag in front of field ump. The runner is not to the base yet and the SS crosses directly in front of runner as he is making the throw. Runner slides well short of the base, in line with the base, and completely flips the SS as he is releasing the ball. Pretty much hammered the SS.

Field ump signals safe, as he says the SS never touched second. There was really nothing indicated on the call at first base as Home Plate comes running up and points at runner who took out the SS and calls him out for going outside the baseline and automatically calls out runner at 1st. The thing is the SS was directly in the baseline, not outside of it and the runner who took him out took a direct path to the base when he flipped the SS.

Hmmm...

That is the proper mechanic for FPSR--after the ball is released, it's PU's primary responsibility. Now, the question of why he called it. He either missed it because it was an ugly play, or he saw something illegal that you didn't.

For me, I'm having a hard time seeing how a slide could flip a fielder. Is there any chance you could describe it?

My son was pitching just last Monday hit player in the forward arm, ump called batter back to the plate, said leaned into it, called the pitch a ball.  This was college D1.  My thing was that if he leaned into the pitch he leaned into the strike zone,

How could it flip him? SS anticipated he was about to be slid into and decided to get his feet off the ground at the last minute. Base runner got him high as his feet were coming off the ground. Base runner is 235lbs, SS 160lbs at most. SS rolled with it as he was going forward and did a complete roll over. He got up and said something to the runner after the play was over. He was lucky his feet weren't planted.

When you say "got him high," how high?

Jeez, I don't know, maybe the top shin of the sliding runner caught the SS just below the knee. Lower leg of slider just above the ankle.

The runner was clearly going to be out, and was so to the point that he probably could have diverted off of the base path. But he didn't. He tried to break up the double play.

The SS make it easy for the runner to execute a take out slide because SS didn't move to his right or left he continued straight toward first base, in effect cutting the distance down between him and the runner.

The reason I was asking is because where a sliding runner contacts a fielder also plays into a violation. From your description, it probably was legal--but hard to know definitively. If there's contact above the knee, this is illegal.

This goes to a point I've made here before--there are nuances to every play that make it so each play has to be judged on its own, and not in relation to other plays in that game or at that level. If this runner contacted the fielder right below the knee, I see nothing here that is illegal. If the contact occurred even a few inches higher, we have an illegal slide and two outs.

So, for everyone bringing stuff here, keep it up...it's great to talk about it. Also keep in mind that when we ask questions, there's something behind it.

Agreed with Matt.  And, notice that it's the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, not when he's tried to jump over the runner.

(And this is the HS and NCAA rule -- since the post was apparently about "kids" who knows what rules might have been in place)

If the arm just went "forward" then it's likely going to be called a ball.  If the arm went forward and down, then a strike.  The "default" on the call is going to be ball, even if the pitch might technically have been at the top of the zone.

I did have one player in an NCAA game, D-3 if I remember, get hit in the knee three times -- once he was awarded first, once it was a ball, once it was a strike.  The forth time he came to the plate he asked me how he could avoid getting hit.  I told him to step back from the plate.