Hitting for Excellence

The hitting video's are first rate and the vision training works. The only way to buy the vision training video is to order the entire series, with 1 video shipped every two weeks. The vision training video is the 5th of the 6 videos in the series. You may also purchase the vision training equipment with the series. When you do most of the equipment will lay around for about 8 weeks until you receive the video that tells you how to use it. The simplest tool is called a Brock string. A piece of string about 10 ft. long with three colored beads. It use is to train your eyes to work as a pair of eyes to focus on objects at various deistances and to train your eyes to focus more quickly. Regardless of the quality of your vision, you can train your eyes to work together, to see better, focus more quickly, better track moving objects, etc.

What is hitting for excellence?

Please define -----

Thanks BNA for the help.

The Hitting for Excellence dvds, which can be found at hitting.com, are a series of six dvds made by Dave Hudgens, the Oakland Athletics' hitting coach.

Sounds like the vision training dvd is good. How are the other dvds in the series?

I have the old tape set, and my sons have been successful following the program.

Beyond that Dave and Rita are great people to do businees with.

Thanks for the help.

I didn't mean to imply that the Sports Vision Training was the only dvd in the six dvd series that was good. The entire series is first rate. It's just that I was specifically searching for the best available Sports Vision Training program and it delivered what I was specifically searching for.

The entire series provides excellent hitting instruction. The Sports Vision DVD is somewhat unique to a hitting instruction series. Well produced series.

Thanks again.

I've not had access to the new material, but I did buy his products when he first come out with it, and was impressed with the quality. The instruction is sound and it was one of the learning tools I used for both of my sons....

I would recommend the product as one of the better ones I bought. (and I was a training aid junkie) LOL

I have not seen his DVD's but have read through his website. I do not agree with his position that "keep the back elbpw up" is the worse advice ever given to a player. I see most major leaguers starting with it there. He may have changed his position on this since I have not visited his site for a while.

BK35

There's a world of difference between "starting" with the back elbow up and "keeping" the back elbow up.

Pinetar, who do you know that has ever kept the back elbow up while swinging. It's probably easier to lick your elbow than to do that.

I agree with BK and think Hudgens is the one giving out bad advice on this one. Almost all mlb hitters start with their elbow up. It seems to work for them.

SBK

Please read my post and BK35's post again, carefully!

Pinetar,

I must be a little slow this morning, what am I missing?

I read that BK says he disagrees with Hudgens, when he says that Hudgens says that instructors who tell their players to, "keep their elbows up" are doing them a disservice. BK says that most of the mlb hitters he has seen, “keep their elbows up”. I agree, all the best mlb hitters I have seen “keep their elbows up” at least how this cue is recognized by all reasonable hitting instructors. Pinetar, do you agree?

You tried to bail out Hudgens by saying that maybe he is referring to keeping their elbow up throughout the swing. I politely was trying to say that was ridiculous because I figured that practically everyone knows that that cue refers to the beginning position since nobody swings while their back elbow up remains up or would suggest it.

Try it. I believe you would find it easier to lick your elbow with your tongue then to swing a bat while your back elbow remains up


Caveat: I will not be responsible for any one who hurts themselves while trying to swing while their back elbow remains up or who get hurt while trying to lick their elbow with their tongue.

SBK,

A couple of points and questions.

1. If you are going to use quotes, please be accurate. Although BK says that he sees “most major leaguers starting with it (the back elbow) there (up)”, I see the allegation that most of the mlb hitters he has seen keep the elbows (sic) up, nowhere to be found in his post. And just how in the h*** did you manage to turn my comment that there is a world of difference between keeping the back elbow up and starting with the back elbow up into my trying “to bail Hudgens out by saying that maybe he is referring to keeping the back elbow up throughout the swing?” My comments were my own, and I wouldn’t presume to speak for Mr. Hudgens nor attribute my views to him. I haven’t the slightest idea of what he thinks about anything. I do not know the gentleman, nor have I read any of his materials for at least ten years.

2. The first two of over fifty definitions for the word “keep” in my Random House Dictionary of the English Language read as follows: “1.to maintain an action or situation” and “2. to cause to continue in a given space, position, state, course, or action”. Nowhere in these or any of the other 48 definitions is there any indication of any meaning other than that of permanence or opposition to change; nowhere was there any reference what-so-ever to the word relating to or connoting the state of impermanence or temporariness of anything existing solely at the “beginning” of anything.

3. Just where are all of these “reasonable hitting instructors” that know that the cue of keeping the back elbow up refers only to its position at the beginning of the swing? Although I have often heard advice along these lines shouted from the stands and occasionally from a coach at little league contests, in over 40 years of attending baseball clinics staffed by some finest college, high school, and professional coaches, and during countless discussions with various hitting instructors at all levels, I can’t remember a one of them ever mentioning this as any kind of cue at all. But then, I guess I just wasn’t lucky enough to catch them on one of their more lucid days.

4. I realize that there are very good reasons for starting the swing with the back elbow up and for “slotting” that elbow early on in the swing process. But if that’s what you want the player to do, why not say it as plainly and as explicitly as possible. What good is a cue that needs constant interpretation because if taken literally, it something entirely different than what was intended? It is difficult enough to try to explain something as complicated and complex as the baseball swing through the medium of a language ill suited for doing so without using contradictory, imprecise, or ambiguous terms. If you mean that you want the players to have the back elbow up at the start of his swing, then, say it in exactly those works. Tell them to “raise, get, or put” it up, but don’t tell them to keep it there when that’s that last thing you want them to try to do during the swing.

Pinetar,

Your post in another topic in the “Coach Tips” forum under the topic, “Parent Meddling” starts with, “Although I may be nitpicking, I don’t like the term “double cut” as used here because I don’t think it adequately describes (at least in my mind) the situation … etc”.

It sounds like you already have an idea you might have a propensity to knit-pick and you certainly are doing so here. I am not disagreeing with the definition of the word, “Keep” you found in your dictionary. The problem for you and probably a lot of English teachers throughout the country is that the sports world has turned phrases and words into a vocabulary of our own.

In this example, I would think everyone that knows anything about swinging a bat would know that when a hitting instructor tells a hitter that’s getting ready to hit to, “Keep their elbow up” they do not mean for it to be up as they swing. It is not even physically possible to do so.

Your problem is not with me; it’s with the sports world for butchering the English language for its own use. In the other topic you took issue with the term, “Double cutoff”. You are probably right, there may be a better way to describe it. In fact I don’t doubt that if a person used a dictionary, a thesaurus and sample a focus group or two, they probably could come up with something quite specific. In the meantime a lot of us will call it a, “Double cutoff”.

The list of words and phrases that mean something to sports people but could literally be taken to mean something else is extensive. Some times the reason for doing so actually makes sense. Could you imagine the first base coach yelling out to his runner on a shallow pop up, “Go 38.5 % of the way to second, stop, and be ready to retreat if the opponent catches it, but if he drops it proceed to second base, etc., etc.”. Of course not! I hope we all know that when we tell a runner to go, “half-way”, it doesn’t always literally mean exactly halfway. A good coach needs to explain this commonly used terminology like what going half way means to young players and thereafter he can use this simple phrase to get his point across.

Best of luck to you and if you really want to make the sports world a more literal environment, I suggest you start on the meaning of, “Foul Pole”.

My son (13) works on hitting once a week with Jordan Hudgens, who I find excellent. Jordan is Dave's 21-year old son who works with his Dad and uses his program in the instruction. My son starts with his back elbow up, which I never have particularly liked. Nonetheless, he has a very good swing that has Jordan's full approval. I will ask Jordan what his Dad meant by the comment being debated here and will return later (probably tomorrow night) with an answer.

Jemaz,

Look forward to hearing what he has to say.

I am not personally familiar with Dave Hudgen’s or his instruction. I only know that BK35 said that sometime back, he read or viewed where Dave Hudgen’s had said something to the effect that it is a mistake for hitters to have their back elbow up.

So I guess the question for Jordan might be, “Did your father say at one time say that”? If so, has he modified his position? And if he still believes hitters should start with their rear elbow down, why do practically every mlb hitter start with it elevated and plainly not down?

The reason I entered this discussion was because Pinetar said, “There's a world of difference between "starting" with the back elbow up and "keeping" the back elbow up”. I tried to suggest to Pinetar that when a hitting instructor tells a hitter to, “Keep their rear elbow up”, it should go without saying that they are not meaning for the rear elbow to remain up during the swing. The reason why it should be self-evident is if for no other reason, it is not even physically possible to do.

Jemaz, good luck with your son. I understand that you were a pretty decent college hitter, what did you do with your back elbow?

SBK:

My oldest son was a pretty decent college hitter. As for me, high school was as far as I got, although I am very proud to say I won a home run hitting contest (amateur division) at Maryvale (spring training home of the Brewers) a few years back and I did it with wood. Richie Sexon, by the way, won the pro division. I even got a nice trophy. I went 380 twice, which for a bunch of old guys was pretty good. To answer your question, I always keep my back elbow down and my hands low and I move my head too much.

jemaz,

I remember reading a post a few weeks ago from you about your family's hitting exploits. Thanks for setting me straight that it is your oldest son who is the top hitter although it sounds like you do ok yourself. Congrats on the trophy to prove it. With you and your oldest son's previous experience and Jordan's assistance, your youngest should do even better.

Hopefully this message will bring clarity to the questions above. This is Jordan Hudgens in response to the disagreement on the position of the back elbow in the stance.

My Dad discusses this particular issue due to the fact that it is one of the most misunderstood topics at the lower levels of baseball. He always would hear my coaches in little league telling all the hitters to "Get their back elbows up". They said this because they would see certain hitters like Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. with their elbows up and mistakenly think that all a player needed to do to hit like them was to start with the same position of the elbow.

However the problem with this type of instruction is that it fails to recognize that those same great hitters would relax their back elbow once their stride foot came down.

There are three main positions that every major league hitter looks identical in (the stance is not one of them):

- The position of power
- Contact
- Extension

The one dealing with the back elbow is the position of power. The position of power occurs when the stride foot comes down and the hands 'click' back. If a hitter, who starts with their back elbow up, keeps the back elbow up, a long and slow swing will be the result. However, if the back elbow relaxes in the position of power, approximately to a 45 degree angle, then they are in a great position to hit.

I hope this helps clear some things up.

Jordan Hudgens

Jordan,

Welcome to the site. Thanks for your input. Writing about hitting is certainly difficult to convey instruction. I am not familiar with your father’s work but his accomplishments speak for themselves.

I agree that Bonds and Griffey have their rear elbow up. You only have to switch on an mlb game to see that it is the normal starting position for pro hitters with perhaps subtle degrees of differences.

Do you guys believe that professional players can start with their rear elbow elevated and perhaps advanced players or maybe even young players who are under a qualified instructor’s guidance but otherwise other players would be better suited to keeping their rear elbow closer to the slotted position to start?

The young players I am familiar with would are smart enough to know that starting in a similar position as the pros does not automatically lead them to believe they will hit like them. In fact they are probably smart enough ask why it is the pros elevate their rear elbow if I were to tell them to keep theirs down.

Another thing you mention that I do not observe is the rear elbow rear elbow "relaxing" as the player’s toe touches as you described a couple times. I think we all can agree that this slotting takes place after the toe touches but I would hardly consider it to “relax”. From the time from toe touch to starting the swing, there’s not a lot of time to relax anything and certainly not to move the rear elbow a few inches or so.

What I observe is that pro hitters slot their rear elbow quite aggressively and use it as an advantageous force to accomplish their goal.

Once again thanks for your input and to you in advance for clarifying this a little more.

The back elbow....It loads for power, and it can be from a low position, like Mantle (left handed) and medium high position like Vlad or a very high position like Yaz. In all cases, they draw the elbow back towards the dugout as they are striding and then start lowering the back elbow into the slot as they start their forward swing. I disagree that the hands click back....the hands go back towards the dugout because the elbow has drawn them there, and I feel that the elbow is then in a strong position, and not necessarily relaxed. I feel that it (back elbow and arm) is in a punching position and has a powerful feel, not a relaxed feel.

All big league "power hitters" draw the elbow back towards the dugout. Some big leaguers draw the elbow back towards the catcher or don't draw it at all, but they are not power hitters.

Jordan, I have scouted the A's system for about 15 years and have always enjoyed watching their hitters. Your Dad had the minor leaguers for years and now has the big leaguers, and he has done a fine job with them.

I hope Jordan takes the time to add more to this discussion and explain what he meant better.

Does anyone else concur with the Hudgen's description of great hitters when he writes, "great hitters would relax their back elbow once their stride foot came down".

I see them using their rear elbow as a positive force in their swing and certainly not there just to be relaxed. BBScout also says it loads for "power" as do I. What do the rest of you see?

Bbscout,
You have a pm.