My son suffered a concussion this weekend so I thought that I would bring this thread back to life. On the first pitch of the game the batter fouled the ball up towards 3rd base dugout. My son found the ball, threw his helmet in the opposite direction and went after the ball. The 3rd baseman saw my son going after the ball and gave him room. Unfortunately the pitcher didn't. As my son was diving for the ball the pitcher ran straight through him and his knee caught my son in the head. I realize that it was a trainwreck but I can't help but wonder if my son was wearing a skullcap/mask instead of a hockey style if this would have happened. Admittedly it was a trainwreck but I thought I would post and see what could have been done to prevent this. BTW, the catscan came out okay and my son is good now but out for 1 week. It was pretty scary.
quote:I realize that it was a trainwreck but I can't help but wonder if my son was wearing a skullcap/mask instead of a hockey style if this would have happened.
He wasn't wearing a helmet, but you're blaming the helmet for his concussion?
quote:Admittedly it was a trainwreck but I thought I would post and see what could have been done to prevent this.
Communication
quote:BTW, the catscan came out okay and my son is good now but out for 1 week.
It almost always will. The catscan, MRI, CT, etc all look for bleeding of the brain. A concussion will not show anything in these imaging studies because it is not a structural injury. A concussion is a functional dysfunction. Please do not let him rush back out there. Get help from a qualified healthcare provider who has a background in sports concussions. Don't just let him return based off what the ER doctor said...
Yeah, not sure the type of helmet mattered in the collision because it was not being worn? Are we missing something here?
The parent is saying that because their kid was wearing a hockey style / single unit mask then there was no protection provided once he removed it. They are asking if it was the traditional two piece with some sort of skull cap or helmet base coaches wear would it have prevented his concussion.
It would depend if the helmet of a two piece fit well or not. It could have come off when the mask was taken off.
Communication should be the key here. The pitcher / catcher need to talk as to who will get the ball. Maybe it did happen but one of them didn't hear the other.
Sadly this stuff happens. I hope your son is ok and make sure he's healthy before he gets back in the game.
It would depend if the helmet of a two piece fit well or not. It could have come off when the mask was taken off.
Communication should be the key here. The pitcher / catcher need to talk as to who will get the ball. Maybe it did happen but one of them didn't hear the other.
Sadly this stuff happens. I hope your son is ok and make sure he's healthy before he gets back in the game.
Just based on what I have read on the situation, I would say the only thing that could have helped is communication.
The rest is all speculation. Would the skull cap have stayed on when mask was ripped off to find ball, who knows, my guess no.
Even if skull cap stayed on, would it have prevented concussion, who knows. NFL players get concussions with helmets on, so concussion could happen no matter what protective gear is worn, even the hockey style mask.
The rest is all speculation. Would the skull cap have stayed on when mask was ripped off to find ball, who knows, my guess no.
Even if skull cap stayed on, would it have prevented concussion, who knows. NFL players get concussions with helmets on, so concussion could happen no matter what protective gear is worn, even the hockey style mask.
quote:Even if skull cap stayed on, would it have prevented concussion, who knows. NFL players get concussions with helmets on, so concussion could happen no matter what protective gear is worn, even the hockey style mask.
Everybody, say it with me. "NO HELMET CAN PREVENT ALL CONCUSSSIONS. NO HELMET CAN PREVENT ALL CONCUSSIONS."
quote:The parent is saying that because their kid was wearing a hockey style / single unit mask then there was no protection provided once he removed it. They are asking if it was the traditional two piece with some sort of skull cap or helmet base coaches wear would it have prevented his concussion.
This is one reason I never took my mask off. It provides plenty of vision to keep on at all times.
quote:
This is one reason I never took my mask off. It provides plenty of vision to keep on at all times.
We have a winner!!! This is what my son does. Only takes it off to talk to the pitcher and when he's headed for the dugout.
Whatever is comfortable is the way to go. I wear a Skull but it's personal preference. The skull is actually more impact resistant than a hockey style mask due to the give of the straps. I read an article on it once. Sorry I didn't look it up to post a link. I suggest doing whatever he feels comfortable in. Brand of skull I use. All Star. They are comfortable and the skulls caps fit like a New Era Baseball Hat. The mask itself is light and it has a delta flex strap so it stays snug when on but comes off with ease.
Great thread. Brad Jurga of All Star, I got my son an MVP4000SL hockey style helmet, all I have to say is Great Job!! I'm sorry I waited to get it. Holding it up to what he was using before made the other stuff look like toys.
A note about one-handed follow-throughs: A while ago I was watching a Boston game and David Ortiz hit the umpire in the side of the head with his one handed follow-through. The umpire went off to the side in pain and said very loudly "Son of a B____!!". They didn't bleep it out. You would think a player of his talent could swing without hitting the umpire.
A note about one-handed follow-throughs: A while ago I was watching a Boston game and David Ortiz hit the umpire in the side of the head with his one handed follow-through. The umpire went off to the side in pain and said very loudly "Son of a B____!!". They didn't bleep it out. You would think a player of his talent could swing without hitting the umpire.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...-cat?urn=mlb-wp18471
I haven't seen this posted - hope the link works.
My question is that if the 2 pieces provide better protection why don't hockey players wear them?
I haven't seen this posted - hope the link works.
My question is that if the 2 pieces provide better protection why don't hockey players wear them?
I like what Brad said in his post back on page one of this thread:
"With our testing we have found that our hockey style helmets test the same as a standard facemask if not better. So, there is no place that you can shoot a traditional facemask where it will test better than a hockey style mask. However, there are places our hockey style masks which test far better than on a traditional mask.
The argument that when a traditional mask spins off during impact it helps lessen the impact is still uncertain. NOCSAE has done tests and has concluded that when you get hit with a traditional mask on, all the energy is transferred to the head almost immediately, even before your head would move back from the impact. With this in mind, by the time your mask would spin off, most of the impact would have already been passed to the players head."
If you get a chance check out the MVP4000SL. Awesome equipment.
"With our testing we have found that our hockey style helmets test the same as a standard facemask if not better. So, there is no place that you can shoot a traditional facemask where it will test better than a hockey style mask. However, there are places our hockey style masks which test far better than on a traditional mask.
The argument that when a traditional mask spins off during impact it helps lessen the impact is still uncertain. NOCSAE has done tests and has concluded that when you get hit with a traditional mask on, all the energy is transferred to the head almost immediately, even before your head would move back from the impact. With this in mind, by the time your mask would spin off, most of the impact would have already been passed to the players head."
If you get a chance check out the MVP4000SL. Awesome equipment.
When I watched the link, my reaction was that I bet the catcher was glad he had a hockey style mask on. You could see it move to disperse the energy, but stayed in place to stop the ball.
Not scientific, just my reaction to it.
Not scientific, just my reaction to it.
Great thread, continues to deliever. My leage age 13u son is a primary catcher and has been for the past 3 years or so. Of course, he has no choice but to use a hockey style mask.
As for comparing the safety between the two styles of masks, an analogy. I used to fight in the Society for Creative Anacronism (or SCA) using real armor and rattan (wood) stick wrapped with duct tape. Believe me, all the really big boys seems to end up swinging stick and they hit *HARD*! SCA helmets have a minimum metal gauge requirement, the main point of which is to ensure a minimum amount of mass to help off-set the momentum/energy transfer of getting hard in the noggin. The helmets can, and should be well padded, strapped, and fitted to the user but again, they need to have MASS to help make them be safe. So in that case, heavier is generally better.
Is there much of a mass difference between the two helmet styles?
As for comparing the safety between the two styles of masks, an analogy. I used to fight in the Society for Creative Anacronism (or SCA) using real armor and rattan (wood) stick wrapped with duct tape. Believe me, all the really big boys seems to end up swinging stick and they hit *HARD*! SCA helmets have a minimum metal gauge requirement, the main point of which is to ensure a minimum amount of mass to help off-set the momentum/energy transfer of getting hard in the noggin. The helmets can, and should be well padded, strapped, and fitted to the user but again, they need to have MASS to help make them be safe. So in that case, heavier is generally better.
Is there much of a mass difference between the two helmet styles?
The All Star MVP4000SL is massive compared to other helmets.
Guys:
IMO No brainer,the hockey mask is much safer. I saw too many one handed low finishes this summer where catchers got drilled in the side of the mask, helmet or head.Also you are more protected on colision plays.
We had two umpires miss significant time with concussions. I'm not sure about any catchers missing time.
Additionally from a performance perspective the hockey mask offers some advantages:
1. Wider field of vision.
2. Don't have to remove your mask on low pops( also usually not an issue with the helmet & mask)
3. Can field bunted balls without having to remove your mask ( saves a fraction of a second but a fraction of a second makes a difference sometimes)Yes you can do that with a helmet & mask but the mask CAN get in your way.
4. Comfort should not be an issue when safety is concerned.Time & reps take care of comfort.We seem to be able to adapt to our protective cups that were not very comfortable the 1st time we strapped them on.
JW
IMO No brainer,the hockey mask is much safer. I saw too many one handed low finishes this summer where catchers got drilled in the side of the mask, helmet or head.Also you are more protected on colision plays.
We had two umpires miss significant time with concussions. I'm not sure about any catchers missing time.
Additionally from a performance perspective the hockey mask offers some advantages:
1. Wider field of vision.
2. Don't have to remove your mask on low pops( also usually not an issue with the helmet & mask)
3. Can field bunted balls without having to remove your mask ( saves a fraction of a second but a fraction of a second makes a difference sometimes)Yes you can do that with a helmet & mask but the mask CAN get in your way.
4. Comfort should not be an issue when safety is concerned.Time & reps take care of comfort.We seem to be able to adapt to our protective cups that were not very comfortable the 1st time we strapped them on.
JW
Not sure if anyone saw this. Yikes. That is one serious blow.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...trif?urn=mlb-wp19467
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...trif?urn=mlb-wp19467
My son was struck on the rt. side of the head just above the temple last season in college by a lefty with an extremely long follow through on his swing. He was wearing an AllStar skull cap and titanium mask. He recieved a pretty good concussion, but went back to wearing the skull cap. In winterball he got another concussion from a routine foul tip which hit the front of his mask, pitcher throwing in high 70's. Granted he has had this type of foul tip hundreds of times over the last 4 years with no issues. This concussion was less then 6 months from the earlier one.
I contacted AllStar re: difference in impact from old school mask/titanium vs the new AllStar A4000 hockey mask. They shared that their research showed that 90mph fastball impact in area of the eyes with old school mask was in the 70-90 critical impact range (I could have that scales name wrong but the 70-90 is correct) The A4000 range was always in the single digit range (ie less then 10) Pretty significant, they stated helmet was redesigned.
He has been wearing the Newer hockey helmet this season, which just started last week. Several 90mph foul tips off the mask so far and a collision at home while wearing the helmet with no issues.
The hockey mash has much more padding then the skull cap and more side impact protection.
My son says the helmet is comfortable and didnt take much time to adjust to.
I contacted AllStar re: difference in impact from old school mask/titanium vs the new AllStar A4000 hockey mask. They shared that their research showed that 90mph fastball impact in area of the eyes with old school mask was in the 70-90 critical impact range (I could have that scales name wrong but the 70-90 is correct) The A4000 range was always in the single digit range (ie less then 10) Pretty significant, they stated helmet was redesigned.
He has been wearing the Newer hockey helmet this season, which just started last week. Several 90mph foul tips off the mask so far and a collision at home while wearing the helmet with no issues.
The hockey mash has much more padding then the skull cap and more side impact protection.
My son says the helmet is comfortable and didnt take much time to adjust to.
A couple things, of the 33 reported concussions in the MLB did they break them down by position. How many were catchers.
Of the Mike Matheney case, I have talked with several trainers regarding concussions and they all felt that in his case the last concussion wearing the hockey mask wasnt caused by that impact alone. It is the cumulative effect of the repeated blows to the head that result in the brain trauma. MRI's havent been effective in diagnosing the injury. They have some pretty extensive cognitive testing they do now for players after concussions. There are currently several MLB players out with concussion syndrome effects. The more concussions you have the more you are prone to get them.
There clearly needs to be more testing on the subject using top of the line gear.
Of the Mike Matheney case, I have talked with several trainers regarding concussions and they all felt that in his case the last concussion wearing the hockey mask wasnt caused by that impact alone. It is the cumulative effect of the repeated blows to the head that result in the brain trauma. MRI's havent been effective in diagnosing the injury. They have some pretty extensive cognitive testing they do now for players after concussions. There are currently several MLB players out with concussion syndrome effects. The more concussions you have the more you are prone to get them.
There clearly needs to be more testing on the subject using top of the line gear.
