bballdad, I guess I always looked at it in an opposite point of view. That the cold weather players should have an advantage because they don't play all those games. That should allow you as a player in the midwest to focus on mechanics, strength, conditioning, arm care and strengthing, batspeed, hitting the opposite way, anyhow I imagine you get my drift. So instead of worrying about all the games they can refocus on improving their skill and also their bodies. I used to think it might hurt position players a bit, but now there is many indoor facilities with full infields. Illinois is putting out some great ball players, just watch the draft this year. JMO
I do have a dog in this discussion, and he is a poster boy for "conditioning", never had a sore arm, has very good mechanics, didn't throw a CB til HS, and after an 80 pitch BP last Feb was on his way to see Dr Andrews for the dreaded TJ. The point is that an overhand throw is not a movement that the human body was built for and no man of medicine will say it is. The problems, specifically in the elbow, are joint connections (UCL) and friction issues, and while you can strengthen surrounding muscle groups those "moving part" connections are not invincible. It is luck that a pitcher makes it through a career without an arm injury so why the heck would you throw in a potentially bad arm movement (CB, or high pitch counts) to a kids arsonal if there are alternatives (Change-up, spotting). To me those who promote CB at a young age are flirting with a bad situation when the game becomes really fun.
As adults we try to explain to our kids about taking chances behind the wheel.
You can go from point A to point B and take 2 different routes. The first is a straight road, safe for the beginning driver where you can practice the art of driving. The other has bends, blind spots, and while it is a marked and legal road, it has the potential to have bad results.
Which one would you want your kid to take?
Why would a parent/coach promote throwing curveballs?
As adults we try to explain to our kids about taking chances behind the wheel.
You can go from point A to point B and take 2 different routes. The first is a straight road, safe for the beginning driver where you can practice the art of driving. The other has bends, blind spots, and while it is a marked and legal road, it has the potential to have bad results.
Which one would you want your kid to take?
Why would a parent/coach promote throwing curveballs?
rz1,
I'm in complete agreement with you comments. Our sons' followed a similar path, and ended up in the same place down in Birmingham. Hearing Dr. Andrews speak passionately about the large increase in surgeries on younger players was sobering. Why take such a chance and push the envelope starting at such a young age, when you run the risk of ending a players' career at the HS level? Finally, improvements and refinements in Tommy John surgery have made recovery more the norm than the exception; shoulder trouble is far more iffy and shoulder surgery outcomes are far less successful.
I'm in complete agreement with you comments. Our sons' followed a similar path, and ended up in the same place down in Birmingham. Hearing Dr. Andrews speak passionately about the large increase in surgeries on younger players was sobering. Why take such a chance and push the envelope starting at such a young age, when you run the risk of ending a players' career at the HS level? Finally, improvements and refinements in Tommy John surgery have made recovery more the norm than the exception; shoulder trouble is far more iffy and shoulder surgery outcomes are far less successful.
Forgive me. I am not trying to be argumentative. You both (rosy and rz1) just said you did the right things (no curves till high school, no high pitch counts etc.) and your kids had to get TJ surgery. You also said it is luck to never have an arm injury. Maybe it is genetics or luck and not all the worry about throwing a lot. Maybe more throwing instead of less strengthens the arm. Maybe we just don't know, even with all the research (see bobbles post about 240 pitches).
I do agree that it makes sense not to take risks with your kid. I also agree that means not throwing curves too young or burn them out as 10-12 year olds. But as they get older, I think each kid is different,and maybe as I said before, pitch counts may not be important as see when a kid looks tired and then yanking him.
I do agree that it makes sense not to take risks with your kid. I also agree that means not throwing curves too young or burn them out as 10-12 year olds. But as they get older, I think each kid is different,and maybe as I said before, pitch counts may not be important as see when a kid looks tired and then yanking him.
quote:Maybe it is genetics or luck and not all the worry about throwing a lot
2 thoughts....
"Maybe" is a word that I would rather not deal with if at all possible. Why play the odds and not take the safe road.
As much as genetics plays a big part of our lives, these injuries are connective tissue issues and after a player has conditioned for so long, I would think a genetic issue would have surfaced earlier.
Rosie, your comments about speaking with Dr Andrews carries so much merit. Like any other experience, sometimes those who who have not gone through the process are thinking that it could not happen to their kid. I was in that group once and hope that I am not preaching here, rather, sharing a valuable experience.
Itsrosy and rz1, speaking as a parent, THANKS!
This is a great post, stressing (no pun intended) a point that deserves repeating. The more I understand the epidemiology and biomechanics of pitching, & kinematics studies on proper baseball delivery the more I have come to realize that pitching is tuff on an arm under ideal circumstances. The risk of injury increases exponentially with each additional pitch beyond the “fatigue point”. The current understanding puts this fatigue point for high school and college age pitchers between 80 to 100 pitches with 115 considered “red-line”, professionals may reach the fatigue point around 130. Sure conditioning may increase this fatigue point toward the high end (115) for pitchers but why take the risk? Why risk a career.
I am not disturbed or trying to inflame anyone. These are just my opinions. I implore you to do you own research. Places to start may be the ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institution), ABF (American Baseball Foundation), USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee, and Baseball Prospectus (an egghead baseball think tank). Read about the epidemiology and biomechanics of pitching, and kinematics studies on proper baseball delivery. “Google” rotator cuff & labrum tears, medial collateral ligament, soft-tissue structure of the shoulder joint, and Tommy John surgery. Read the step by step biomechanics of the stress put on a pitcher’s elbow while throwing. It’s like reading about a train wreck in slow motion, microscopic tears and in some cases acute ruptures. OUCH! This is the normal occurrence, when not fatigued.
I believe you should error on the side of caution. Conditioning and mechanics are a “given” and should be a pitcher’s fundamental base. I am all for throwing long toss and great mechanics but I think throwing tons of pitches in an outing is a dangerous practice.
Regarding pitchers who have thrown a high number of pitches in an outing without injury; IMHO these are statistical outliers, numerically distant within normal population distributions, and can often be misleading (a perfectly normal event). Matsuaka’s MLB career is just getting started and only time will tell if over use/abuse in HS will have an impact on his career. Again, I don’t know enough about Matsuaka to have an opinion.
BHD… Good Luck and all the best for your son. Given the information in your post he must be #45 LHP TJ Green at Charleston Southern. He had a great outing of relief against VMI. He stopped the bleeding and kept you guys in the game, throwing 68 pitches… ground balls, good defense, and a couple of timely strikeouts… well done you should be proud. See you in two weeks.
TRhit, I agree.
Itsrosy and rz1… thanks for sharing your experience.
In closing, Black Jack is hardly someone to hold up as an example and I am a rabid Chicago White Sox fan.
GO CHANTS!
“Once you fatigue, it affects your mechanics and you can’t pitch with the precise timing required for a smooth, compact motion.” ~ Nolan Ryan
I am not disturbed or trying to inflame anyone. These are just my opinions. I implore you to do you own research. Places to start may be the ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institution), ABF (American Baseball Foundation), USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee, and Baseball Prospectus (an egghead baseball think tank). Read about the epidemiology and biomechanics of pitching, and kinematics studies on proper baseball delivery. “Google” rotator cuff & labrum tears, medial collateral ligament, soft-tissue structure of the shoulder joint, and Tommy John surgery. Read the step by step biomechanics of the stress put on a pitcher’s elbow while throwing. It’s like reading about a train wreck in slow motion, microscopic tears and in some cases acute ruptures. OUCH! This is the normal occurrence, when not fatigued.
I believe you should error on the side of caution. Conditioning and mechanics are a “given” and should be a pitcher’s fundamental base. I am all for throwing long toss and great mechanics but I think throwing tons of pitches in an outing is a dangerous practice.
Regarding pitchers who have thrown a high number of pitches in an outing without injury; IMHO these are statistical outliers, numerically distant within normal population distributions, and can often be misleading (a perfectly normal event). Matsuaka’s MLB career is just getting started and only time will tell if over use/abuse in HS will have an impact on his career. Again, I don’t know enough about Matsuaka to have an opinion.
BHD… Good Luck and all the best for your son. Given the information in your post he must be #45 LHP TJ Green at Charleston Southern. He had a great outing of relief against VMI. He stopped the bleeding and kept you guys in the game, throwing 68 pitches… ground balls, good defense, and a couple of timely strikeouts… well done you should be proud. See you in two weeks.
TRhit, I agree.
Itsrosy and rz1… thanks for sharing your experience.
In closing, Black Jack is hardly someone to hold up as an example and I am a rabid Chicago White Sox fan.
GO CHANTS!
“Once you fatigue, it affects your mechanics and you can’t pitch with the precise timing required for a smooth, compact motion.” ~ Nolan Ryan
RZ1 I have seen the photos of your son and he is a good looking pitcher.
I am confused by people who do eveything right and end up with TJ surgery. We did everything wrong according to the popular beliefs and my son has never had a sore arm. His teammates on several elite and AAA teams over thye years followed suite and they are all in college and have never had an arm injury.
What are the risks of throwing a BB over hand ? A surgury that repairs the large majority of injuries ? Missing a season of BB. I don't mean to minimize tthis but it is not like breaking your neck in minor football or hockey.
RZ1 your son is back on top again and so is my son's friend who is on the 40 man roster of the Pirates. I don't understand the doom and gloom about an arm injury. You have a choice to pitch or not to pitch, to catch or not to catch or for that matter to play sports or not to play sports.
I think our approach was the right one for us and if he should get an injury we will get it fixed and truck on if he wants to. Arm injury is not quite as severe as a head on collission in a 4000 lb car at 60 mph.
Doc Halliday the Jays ace pitcher was interview yesterday after a very strong outting. The interviewer noticed he was throwqing a lot of CBs and CUs. He usually relied on a cutter FB. His explanation was that the CU and CB was less streesful on his arm. He had suffered from arm problems recently.
Good mechanics and conditioning are ways of reducung risk and not a fool proof answer to arm problems.
All year training was developed to have players throw more and play more inorder to keep up with the warm weather players who were clearly benefitting from all year workouts.
I am confused by people who do eveything right and end up with TJ surgery. We did everything wrong according to the popular beliefs and my son has never had a sore arm. His teammates on several elite and AAA teams over thye years followed suite and they are all in college and have never had an arm injury.
What are the risks of throwing a BB over hand ? A surgury that repairs the large majority of injuries ? Missing a season of BB. I don't mean to minimize tthis but it is not like breaking your neck in minor football or hockey.
RZ1 your son is back on top again and so is my son's friend who is on the 40 man roster of the Pirates. I don't understand the doom and gloom about an arm injury. You have a choice to pitch or not to pitch, to catch or not to catch or for that matter to play sports or not to play sports.
I think our approach was the right one for us and if he should get an injury we will get it fixed and truck on if he wants to. Arm injury is not quite as severe as a head on collission in a 4000 lb car at 60 mph.
Doc Halliday the Jays ace pitcher was interview yesterday after a very strong outting. The interviewer noticed he was throwqing a lot of CBs and CUs. He usually relied on a cutter FB. His explanation was that the CU and CB was less streesful on his arm. He had suffered from arm problems recently.
Good mechanics and conditioning are ways of reducung risk and not a fool proof answer to arm problems.
All year training was developed to have players throw more and play more inorder to keep up with the warm weather players who were clearly benefitting from all year workouts.
This discussion is much akin to discussing politics or religion--everyone has their own views--the bottom line for me is that we will all do what we think is best for our situation and I will continue to do what I do with the kids on my team because I believe in it as does my coaching staff
When I was a kid, I played under some great coaches. In travel ball, yes we had a team way back then that entered tournaments, I played for a guy that abused my arm. Essentially I threw 3 games a week. I've never had a sore arm. Yet, there came a point my Senior year where I seemed to just lose pop. It wasn't that it was slower. It was just "dead." If you've ever known this feeling, then you understand. I wrote it off to the fact that everyone else got better. However, I wonder, did I get worse? Again, I've never had a sore arm and I throw a lot. I wouldn't do that to a kid. JMHO!
Smokey thanks.
VMI is a very good team as I warned my son. I did not expect him to pitche as he was scheduled to start a game in the next few days. They want him to break into the starting rotation.
I have noticed over the years that my son throws much better when he is getting lots of innings as a starter. He is more at ease and relaxed. College ball is different because if you skrew up you tend to sit for awhile. He is the type that thrives on lots of inning.
Are you going to be in Charleston and do you have a player on the team ?
VMI is a very good team as I warned my son. I did not expect him to pitche as he was scheduled to start a game in the next few days. They want him to break into the starting rotation.
I have noticed over the years that my son throws much better when he is getting lots of innings as a starter. He is more at ease and relaxed. College ball is different because if you skrew up you tend to sit for awhile. He is the type that thrives on lots of inning.
Are you going to be in Charleston and do you have a player on the team ?
I’m not sure anyone knows for absolutely sure how CBs and high pitch counts affect the arm. The only thing we are fairly certain about is that these things affect individual pitchers differently. I’ve always been on the side of caution when it comes to throwing CBs at a young age and high pitch counts.
That said, experience has taught me (I think) that most arm (elbow/shoulder) surgeries are most often caused by one of the following. (in order)
1. Insufficient rest between pitching performances (Throwing before the arm has recovered)
2. Insufficient preparation (Throwing before the arm is ready)
3. Mechanical issues
4. Injury to other part of the body that causes problem to the arm.
I base this on the majority of examples I’ve seen first hand. Here’s a few…
My son at 24, threw 6 innings, 1.5 hour rain delay, came back in and threw one more inning, TJ surgery
HS pitcher pitched on short rest in playoffs, 6 starts in 2 weeks, TJ surgery
Travel team pitcher pitched complete game on Friday night, used in relief on Sunday championship game, TJ surgery.
Legion tournament, pitcher had thrown twice in 5 days, then came in to start championship game, lasted one inning before ending up in pain on the ground, holding his arm, TJ surgery.
What is the common thread in the examples above?
High pitch counts, throwing breaking balls, lots of IPs, we’ve all seen those happen many times. Yet it seems like whenever I can point at one thing that is obvious, it most always involves one of the 4 things listed above. Usually #1 and #2!
There is an old timer who has a great history developing pitchers. He has pitchers throw as hard as they possibly can for as long as they can, every 5-7 days. While I don’t completely agree with his thinking, he has helped develop a lot of real good arms that seem to stay healthy longer than most. Heck, maybe he’s right for all I know.
IMO - There is a fine line between developing maximum potential without risking arm injury. You can’t reach maximum arm strength by taking it easy or not throwing much. At the same time, over doing it could be the reason you never reach your potential.
Maybe the difference between today and many years ago, should teach us something. Years ago, young kids would go out and play (throw) from morning till dark. At least for me, there were not very many organized games with coaches, umpires or even parents around. But our games would last all day, we would throw all day! The same kids who did this ended up being the best players as they grew up. Now days, you don’t see kids doing that, but there are more organized teams playing in more “important”? games. So they play more organized games but end up throwing much less than kids did decades ago. I think that’s a fairly accurate observation. Is it possible that the real culprit isn’t throwing too much, but actually not throwing enough?
For sure the youth pitchers of today (as a whole) are more into mechanics and strength training and overall pitching knowledge. But do they develop “natural” arm strength and stamina, like most players in the old days?
Personally, I’m a big believer in the players of today being better than the old days, but why not take history into account to help make things better yet. We would all agree that we learn from history! Why not use history more (both positive and negative) when it comes to developing baseball talent? Sometimes we try to reinvent the wheel! While the smartest among us are working at improving the wheel.
FWIW… Most of this is nothing more than thoughts rather than absolutes. Truth is I don’t know the answers
All we can do is keep learning and realize one of the main reasons for arm surgeries is… The desire to win, clouds thinking about the future. Some call this… Win at all cost! To me, this is the biggest problem in youth baseball. But once again there’s a fine line between playing it safe and having the desire to win. The desire to win IS a real important ingredient! Competing with everything you have and at the same time, thinking about the risk involved can be tough to do. Many coaches have failed that test!
That said, experience has taught me (I think) that most arm (elbow/shoulder) surgeries are most often caused by one of the following. (in order)
1. Insufficient rest between pitching performances (Throwing before the arm has recovered)
2. Insufficient preparation (Throwing before the arm is ready)
3. Mechanical issues
4. Injury to other part of the body that causes problem to the arm.
I base this on the majority of examples I’ve seen first hand. Here’s a few…
My son at 24, threw 6 innings, 1.5 hour rain delay, came back in and threw one more inning, TJ surgery
HS pitcher pitched on short rest in playoffs, 6 starts in 2 weeks, TJ surgery
Travel team pitcher pitched complete game on Friday night, used in relief on Sunday championship game, TJ surgery.
Legion tournament, pitcher had thrown twice in 5 days, then came in to start championship game, lasted one inning before ending up in pain on the ground, holding his arm, TJ surgery.
What is the common thread in the examples above?
High pitch counts, throwing breaking balls, lots of IPs, we’ve all seen those happen many times. Yet it seems like whenever I can point at one thing that is obvious, it most always involves one of the 4 things listed above. Usually #1 and #2!
There is an old timer who has a great history developing pitchers. He has pitchers throw as hard as they possibly can for as long as they can, every 5-7 days. While I don’t completely agree with his thinking, he has helped develop a lot of real good arms that seem to stay healthy longer than most. Heck, maybe he’s right for all I know.
IMO - There is a fine line between developing maximum potential without risking arm injury. You can’t reach maximum arm strength by taking it easy or not throwing much. At the same time, over doing it could be the reason you never reach your potential.
Maybe the difference between today and many years ago, should teach us something. Years ago, young kids would go out and play (throw) from morning till dark. At least for me, there were not very many organized games with coaches, umpires or even parents around. But our games would last all day, we would throw all day! The same kids who did this ended up being the best players as they grew up. Now days, you don’t see kids doing that, but there are more organized teams playing in more “important”? games. So they play more organized games but end up throwing much less than kids did decades ago. I think that’s a fairly accurate observation. Is it possible that the real culprit isn’t throwing too much, but actually not throwing enough?
For sure the youth pitchers of today (as a whole) are more into mechanics and strength training and overall pitching knowledge. But do they develop “natural” arm strength and stamina, like most players in the old days?
Personally, I’m a big believer in the players of today being better than the old days, but why not take history into account to help make things better yet. We would all agree that we learn from history! Why not use history more (both positive and negative) when it comes to developing baseball talent? Sometimes we try to reinvent the wheel! While the smartest among us are working at improving the wheel.
FWIW… Most of this is nothing more than thoughts rather than absolutes. Truth is I don’t know the answers
All we can do is keep learning and realize one of the main reasons for arm surgeries is… The desire to win, clouds thinking about the future. Some call this… Win at all cost! To me, this is the biggest problem in youth baseball. But once again there’s a fine line between playing it safe and having the desire to win. The desire to win IS a real important ingredient! Competing with everything you have and at the same time, thinking about the risk involved can be tough to do. Many coaches have failed that test!
PG
You hit on a point I have long believed--the kids today do not throw enough and the key word is "throw" --not pitch--
I think the damage is done when the arm is not truly ready even when the parebnt and coach think so---and to complicate matters the kid will pitch too much when the arm is not ready
KIDS NO LONGER PLAY CATCH
You hit on a point I have long believed--the kids today do not throw enough and the key word is "throw" --not pitch--
I think the damage is done when the arm is not truly ready even when the parebnt and coach think so---and to complicate matters the kid will pitch too much when the arm is not ready
KIDS NO LONGER PLAY CATCH
PG-
Good stuff you post. One question I have though is on your #3. When one of my boys had some arm issues many years ago I asked the orthopedic Dr. about "mechanics." I remember reading an article that actually contradicted the "mechanics" end of arm injuries.
I mean, exactly what mechanics make a pitcher's arm safe and what mechanics don't? When you look at MLB pitchers you see so many differences & not all the guys with "bad mechanics" get hurt. A few years back everybody was preaching to the kids to throw like Mark Pryor - he was perfect. So what went wrong? I am not disagreeing but didn't the Brewers mess with Mark Rogers to improve his mechanics, and now he has seen the knife. Was it the old mechanics that messed him up or the "new?" IMO, so much of this is unscientific and just someone's opinion that people buy into.
What is your take?
Good stuff you post. One question I have though is on your #3. When one of my boys had some arm issues many years ago I asked the orthopedic Dr. about "mechanics." I remember reading an article that actually contradicted the "mechanics" end of arm injuries.
I mean, exactly what mechanics make a pitcher's arm safe and what mechanics don't? When you look at MLB pitchers you see so many differences & not all the guys with "bad mechanics" get hurt. A few years back everybody was preaching to the kids to throw like Mark Pryor - he was perfect. So what went wrong? I am not disagreeing but didn't the Brewers mess with Mark Rogers to improve his mechanics, and now he has seen the knife. Was it the old mechanics that messed him up or the "new?" IMO, so much of this is unscientific and just someone's opinion that people buy into.
What is your take?
I believe in learning from history but you also have to keep modern development in mind.
My middle daughter was born with a dislocated hip. Our doctor who was getting on in years missed it. After 1 year it becomes a mojor problem and would almost certainly result in a life long limp. My wife took her for acheckup with our new young doctor who took over the practice. He found the dislocation and my daughter was about 1.5 years old. He sent us to a specialist who litterally wanted my daughter to go in for the operation immediately. Told my wife she would limp. My wife refused to allow him to do the surgury until she got a second opinion. Turned out my brother attended law school with theleading surgeon for this type of injury. He had perfected a new surgery and it worked and she has no limp now at 23 years old.
Our world with all that is wrong has some amazing developments. While looking at history you should also look forward or you will get mired in the past.
My middle daughter was born with a dislocated hip. Our doctor who was getting on in years missed it. After 1 year it becomes a mojor problem and would almost certainly result in a life long limp. My wife took her for acheckup with our new young doctor who took over the practice. He found the dislocation and my daughter was about 1.5 years old. He sent us to a specialist who litterally wanted my daughter to go in for the operation immediately. Told my wife she would limp. My wife refused to allow him to do the surgury until she got a second opinion. Turned out my brother attended law school with theleading surgeon for this type of injury. He had perfected a new surgery and it worked and she has no limp now at 23 years old.
Our world with all that is wrong has some amazing developments. While looking at history you should also look forward or you will get mired in the past.
quote:Originally posted by nc42dad:
I mean, exactly what mechanics make a pitcher's arm safe and what mechanics don't? When you look at MLB pitchers you see so many differences & not all the guys with "bad mechanics" get hurt.
I'm sure pg will pipe in with a better answer but my take is that mechanics is a "full body" process where syncronization of the legs, the core, and the arm determine what your mechanics are and thats why you see many different throwing motions and when the phrase "perfect mechanics" is mentioned it is in reference to the motion of that particular pitcher.
quote:BHD quote:
I am confused by people who do eveything right and end up with TJ surgery. We did everything wrong according to the popular beliefs and my son has never had a sore arm.
BHD, Don't take my comments as criticism because how you approach this is your perogative and your way obviously is working. I guess what we do on this board is share experiences, both ups and downs and then readers can draw their own conclusions. On this topic I feel that your approach, while working for you, is an exception to the rule in part. At the same time it should be shared so people do see all sides and make those decisions. When all is said and done a combination of all these points is probably the best overall approach.
I think the most important thing people can take away from this discussion is that which ever approach you take you had better understand the risk and to be in great shape and use good mechanics. I don't just mean good shape but extreme shape specifically for BB. There are no 100% fool proof approaches . Get pro advice and read books like the Pitcher's Edge and other great books on training and BB skills.
Knowlege will set you free.
Knowlege will set you free.
I was one of those kids who played baseball all day long every day. I remember a lot of days when it felt like my elbow was on fire. I wasn't the only one either. Didn't say much about it and there were no coaches or parents around to ask. We just kept on playing.
Of course I didn't grow up to be a big-time (or small-time for that matter) pitcher, but I can't imagine that was good for my arm.
Of course I didn't grow up to be a big-time (or small-time for that matter) pitcher, but I can't imagine that was good for my arm.
With so many examples, opinions, and GREAT DISCUSSION, I would nominate this thread as a "classic thread" anytime. Thanks to all that have kept this a discussion on point and have shared so many different perspectives!
by nc42dad
Lots of very good points being made.
While it is true that all pitchers don’t throw the same, there are certain things that can be harder on the arm than others. Usually these are things that increase the pressure, thus wear and tear, on the elbow or shoulder. Most commonly it’s a case of the arm being late in young pitchers. Mechanically this would mean a pitcher opens up too early and has nothing left but the arm to throw with. There are other flaws that can be dangerous for some pitchers. Throwing across the body, mechanics that do not repeat well, lowering the elbow, length of stride, etc. have all been talked about in the past.
Then, who determines how much success a pitcher sacrifices in order to eliminate risk of injury? ie. Throwing across the body might be more risky, but it can also add to deception and be a major reason the pitcher is so successful.
You are right, this is very confusing. Some see the lower arm angles as being more dangerous while others disagree. Personally, I’ve grown to believe that straight over the top is the hardest on the shoulder and the lower angles are harder on the elbow.
Not to start any controversy, but I also think surgeons should stick to surgery rather than teaching baseball. However if you took their medical knowledge and combined it with an expert pitching coach, we could all learn a lot.
Surgeons don’t have to worry about getting hitters out. The one thing that is consistent in medical people is they all tend to be extra cautious when it comes to taking risks. Unfortunately, athletics involve taking some risks.
The more I learn about all these things… The more I realize how much I don’t really know! I like to read everyone’s opinions on this subject, but don’t agree or disagree with any of them… that includes my own, which at one time, years ago, I thought was 100% correct!
quote:I mean, exactly what mechanics make a pitcher's arm safe and what mechanics don't? When you look at MLB pitchers you see so many differences & not all the guys with "bad mechanics" get hurt. A few years back everybody was preaching to the kids to throw like Mark Pryor - he was perfect. So what went wrong? I am not disagreeing but didn't the Brewers mess with Mark Rogers to improve his mechanics, and now he has seen the knife. Was it the old mechanics that messed him up or the "new?" IMO, so much of this is unscientific and just someone's opinion that people buy into.
What is your take?
Lots of very good points being made.
While it is true that all pitchers don’t throw the same, there are certain things that can be harder on the arm than others. Usually these are things that increase the pressure, thus wear and tear, on the elbow or shoulder. Most commonly it’s a case of the arm being late in young pitchers. Mechanically this would mean a pitcher opens up too early and has nothing left but the arm to throw with. There are other flaws that can be dangerous for some pitchers. Throwing across the body, mechanics that do not repeat well, lowering the elbow, length of stride, etc. have all been talked about in the past.
Then, who determines how much success a pitcher sacrifices in order to eliminate risk of injury? ie. Throwing across the body might be more risky, but it can also add to deception and be a major reason the pitcher is so successful.
You are right, this is very confusing. Some see the lower arm angles as being more dangerous while others disagree. Personally, I’ve grown to believe that straight over the top is the hardest on the shoulder and the lower angles are harder on the elbow.
Not to start any controversy, but I also think surgeons should stick to surgery rather than teaching baseball. However if you took their medical knowledge and combined it with an expert pitching coach, we could all learn a lot.
Surgeons don’t have to worry about getting hitters out. The one thing that is consistent in medical people is they all tend to be extra cautious when it comes to taking risks. Unfortunately, athletics involve taking some risks.
The more I learn about all these things… The more I realize how much I don’t really know! I like to read everyone’s opinions on this subject, but don’t agree or disagree with any of them… that includes my own, which at one time, years ago, I thought was 100% correct!
Fastballdad,quote:I was one of those kids who played baseball all day long every day. I remember a lot of days when it felt like my elbow was on fire. I wasn't the only one either. Didn't say much about it and there were no coaches or parents around to ask. We just kept on playing.
Of course I didn't grow up to be a big-time (or small-time for that matter) pitcher, but I can't imagine that was good for my arm.
How about that shot of pain whenever you'd expend your arm too much while throwing off balance. I can still feel that!
On the other hand, it would be interesting to check the number of TJ and Labrum surgeries on Dominican players vs those from the USA. Because in the Dominican those kids are still doing what we used to do. Play ball from morning to night.
Really gets me to thinking those stats on serious arm injuries (Dominican vs American) might really tell us something important.
PG...I know exactly what you are talking about....but those were the days.
That comparison (Domincan vs American and why not Japanese?) would probably tell a lot. I still think common sense and thinking about risk and reward will take care of a lot of it.
Another point that I don't know if anyone made was that according to some folks I talk to, you almost can't throw too much, but you can pitch too much.
That comparison (Domincan vs American and why not Japanese?) would probably tell a lot. I still think common sense and thinking about risk and reward will take care of a lot of it.
Another point that I don't know if anyone made was that according to some folks I talk to, you almost can't throw too much, but you can pitch too much.
PGStaff, your suggestion of a comparitive analysis between Dominicans vs. American pitchers is to be commended. I went to the I.H.S.A. coaches clinic/workshop a year ago and they had a guest speaker who discussed the theory of Natural Selection. Specifically he discussed the reason why young Dominican pitchers had a large number of high velocity/strong arms. These ballplayers where being scouted by numerous pro clubs. These young men of the Dominican never had a coach or instructor advise them how to throw "correctly". Through their own competitive nature with their peers, they would learn to throw via a natural selection and process of throwing the ball hard with endurance. I can not remember if he stated they could pitch exceptionally well,but the art pitching could be taught. They did not have to over process all the mechanical variations that would prevent a distraction to their natural ability. The question that comes to mind is;are pitchers being micro managed to the extent that natures way is being hampered? how do their injuries compare to ours is valid. Regarding those who played unsupervised baseball "morning to night" was mostly of the lob ball nature and not the"high heat or gas variety" but it was of the natural selection variety.
Pitcher Abuse Points, PAP, was a measure developed by the egg-heads at Baseball Prospectus in the late 90s to help statistically understand pitch count and the effects high pitch counts have on MLB pitchers. The idea was to project performance. However, I have not seen an article on BP correlating this data but believe they are working on gathering the data sets needed (not just PAP… there is a lot more to this).
Anyway….. apples to apples…
The first link below is a table of 303 starting MLB pitchers for the 2006 season quantifying the number of pitches per start and their PAP numbers. What I do find interesting is the “maximum number of pitches” in a start and the “average number of pitches” per start. The highest numbers are MAX_NP = 138 (Livan Hernandez) and AVG_NP = 110.029 (Bronson Arroyo). These are the extremes and if you read this table, the numbers drop off relatively quickly.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=99961
The point I’m attempting to make here is that these are Major League Baseball players, seasoned, mature, developed, athletes, men, not high school boys, and for the most part, their clubs are keeping them to a reasonable pitch count. I haven’t done the math but I bet the mean “average number of pitches per start” for the sample of 303 pitchers is well under 100… just “eye balling” the top 150, I bet the mean “average” is under 100.
If a MLB manager and/or pitching coach (organization), professional baseball people, limit starting MLB pitchers to a pitch count, on the average, below or around 100 pitches why would a high school coach (or parent) allow a HS pitcher to exceed these numbers. Heck, why would the HS coach/parent allow a HS pitcher to even approach these numbers. I don’t care if the HS kid is “Big Bad Mean Mountain Dean Man Child” he is physically not anywhere close to the level of a MLB pitcher. Most of these kids are not old enough to vote or shed blood for their county. This is just common sense.
The original post by CoachB25 was about kids throwing 130 pitches and 11 innings (say even at 10 pitches per inning that’s 110 pitches). That is just plain stupid and irresponsible. This early in the season is another discussion.
Below is a link to a comprehensive explanation of PAP.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=148
Other stuff……..
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/
Regarding the US/Dominican discussion… the first thing that comes to mind… Francisco “The Franchise” Liriano… he should be back by 2008… hey what happened to that Oak Park native Justin Olson.
Anyway….. apples to apples…
The first link below is a table of 303 starting MLB pitchers for the 2006 season quantifying the number of pitches per start and their PAP numbers. What I do find interesting is the “maximum number of pitches” in a start and the “average number of pitches” per start. The highest numbers are MAX_NP = 138 (Livan Hernandez) and AVG_NP = 110.029 (Bronson Arroyo). These are the extremes and if you read this table, the numbers drop off relatively quickly.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=99961
The point I’m attempting to make here is that these are Major League Baseball players, seasoned, mature, developed, athletes, men, not high school boys, and for the most part, their clubs are keeping them to a reasonable pitch count. I haven’t done the math but I bet the mean “average number of pitches per start” for the sample of 303 pitchers is well under 100… just “eye balling” the top 150, I bet the mean “average” is under 100.
If a MLB manager and/or pitching coach (organization), professional baseball people, limit starting MLB pitchers to a pitch count, on the average, below or around 100 pitches why would a high school coach (or parent) allow a HS pitcher to exceed these numbers. Heck, why would the HS coach/parent allow a HS pitcher to even approach these numbers. I don’t care if the HS kid is “Big Bad Mean Mountain Dean Man Child” he is physically not anywhere close to the level of a MLB pitcher. Most of these kids are not old enough to vote or shed blood for their county. This is just common sense.
The original post by CoachB25 was about kids throwing 130 pitches and 11 innings (say even at 10 pitches per inning that’s 110 pitches). That is just plain stupid and irresponsible. This early in the season is another discussion.
Below is a link to a comprehensive explanation of PAP.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=148
Other stuff……..
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/
Regarding the US/Dominican discussion… the first thing that comes to mind… Francisco “The Franchise” Liriano… he should be back by 2008… hey what happened to that Oak Park native Justin Olson.
When one cites the non american pitchers as better and less injury prone, are we including all pitchers that have been through the system? Are there statistics on the amount of injuries in the non american group? Or are we saying the non american pitchers are all better because they never have problems?
quote:Originally posted by Smokey:
Regarding the US/Dominican discussion… the first thing that comes to mind… Francisco “The Franchise” Liriano… he should be back by 2008…
Gardenhire is a 105 pitch guy too. I listened to him on a radio interview a couple of years ago and he stated that it's rare for one of his pitchers to get past 105 and almost never past 115 pitches.
PG well put !
When you look at ML pitching stats they are subjective. A ML pitcher pitches as long as he is effective. They generally yank them if they are getting lit up. This will skew the numbers.
It is very difficult to judge human endeavors because of the too numerous factors to take into consideration. A general comparison is interesting but not scientific.
It is very difficult to judge human endeavors because of the too numerous factors to take into consideration. A general comparison is interesting but not scientific.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
When you look at ML pitching stats they are subjective. A ML pitcher pitches as long as he is effective. They generally yank them if they are getting lit up. This will skew the numbers.
I think the key word here is EFFECTIVE. Besides the fact that "depth" is an MLB resource and a mid-reliever is usually an effective replacement. Also, at the ML level as they want "effective" to be a word used in Sept. So why not save some of those pitches for later in the year?
You are correct that those stats are subjective but as you know they still are counting pitches and regardless of how effective a pitcher is, that pitch count is a stat used everyday at that level. They know at what number a pitchers effectivness begins to drop, and that seems to be at about 100. If 100 is an MLB norm before the performance starts declining, why subject a kid to a number even close to that?
The problem is that at the youth and HS ages many coaches think that his studs declining performance is better than any of his his relievers and he will keep them in. That is selfish coaching act and disrespectful to a pitchers health. Performing at a less than optimum level is not benificial. If you subscribe to the theory that the more you throw the stronger you get, a coach should pull a pitcher, let him recover, and then begin his off-day thowing regiments. Developing a pitcher is not done on game days, it is the days, weeks and months of training that gets a pitcher ready for that day and the rest of the days in his career. Why push an envelope on 1 outing when the accumulation of outings defines a career
quote:he felt..he was fine and held them to 2 runs,unfortunately they held us to 1..
Thats good. One of the best games my son ever pitched was a complete perfect game no decision 0-0.
There are a lot of issues involved in this discussion and some outstanding viewpoints. In the past few years when these discussions have come up I have posted links to the ASMI recommendations and if anyone looked back at that most people who want to ignore those recommendations did just that. I am a baseball coach, but I pay attention to doctors and trainers.....I also learn from them, I listen to my pitchers and I sometimes don't believe what they tell me about their arms.
I am also the father of a pitcher. I coached him when he was in LL and then again in travel ball when he was 13-14 (my college recruiting suffered during those two years, but I wouldn't change a thing).
For the most part, my son's arm was well taken care of. He did not throw breaking balls until entering 9th grade.....that 14 y.o summer when I was coaching him.....actually none of our pitcheres threw breaking balls until that year, and then they could only throw them on 0-1 and 1-2 counts. I don't remember a game in which any of them threw over ten breaking balls.
Once he was in HS his school coaches were pretty good about caring for his arm. His summer coaches varied, though; some cared more about the arms and others cared more about adding wins to their own records.
When he got to college he was well taken care of; he had not had an appearance with over 95 pitches in his first two years of college and in summer collegiate leagues, and he was given enough/appropriate rest in between appearances.
In the fall of his junior year (fall of 2005) he barely allowed a baserunner during fall intrasquads. During the time his arm was shut down (from late October into the winter) he had a single trauma to his shoulder while in his car (an awkward high five while he sat in his front seat with his arm extended back). The result was a SLAP lesion and labrum surgery.....a red shirt year.
Was this an injury waiting to happen? Who knows?
I do know, that as a pitching coach, as somebody who speaks at clinics, trains youth coaches, trains young pitchers and is a college pitching coach, that having some sort of formula to determine how many pitches a pitcher should throw, what he does on his off days, how much rest a pitcher should have after appearing in a game, etc., is of vital importance.
Winning a game should never be more important than caring for the arm health of a pitcher.......if the pro coaches are caring for adult pitcher's arms (even the guys who sign for no bonus and are making $1100/month), then the amateur parents/youth coaches, HS and college coaches ought to be paying attention and following suit.
I am also the father of a pitcher. I coached him when he was in LL and then again in travel ball when he was 13-14 (my college recruiting suffered during those two years, but I wouldn't change a thing).
For the most part, my son's arm was well taken care of. He did not throw breaking balls until entering 9th grade.....that 14 y.o summer when I was coaching him.....actually none of our pitcheres threw breaking balls until that year, and then they could only throw them on 0-1 and 1-2 counts. I don't remember a game in which any of them threw over ten breaking balls.
Once he was in HS his school coaches were pretty good about caring for his arm. His summer coaches varied, though; some cared more about the arms and others cared more about adding wins to their own records.
When he got to college he was well taken care of; he had not had an appearance with over 95 pitches in his first two years of college and in summer collegiate leagues, and he was given enough/appropriate rest in between appearances.
In the fall of his junior year (fall of 2005) he barely allowed a baserunner during fall intrasquads. During the time his arm was shut down (from late October into the winter) he had a single trauma to his shoulder while in his car (an awkward high five while he sat in his front seat with his arm extended back). The result was a SLAP lesion and labrum surgery.....a red shirt year.
Was this an injury waiting to happen? Who knows?
I do know, that as a pitching coach, as somebody who speaks at clinics, trains youth coaches, trains young pitchers and is a college pitching coach, that having some sort of formula to determine how many pitches a pitcher should throw, what he does on his off days, how much rest a pitcher should have after appearing in a game, etc., is of vital importance.
Winning a game should never be more important than caring for the arm health of a pitcher.......if the pro coaches are caring for adult pitcher's arms (even the guys who sign for no bonus and are making $1100/month), then the amateur parents/youth coaches, HS and college coaches ought to be paying attention and following suit.
Grateful, very well stated. I think that the overwhelming evidence that people have shared on this site suggests that overuse is one of the major factors for having TJ surgery and I don't think that this can be disputed. Parents, players and coaches should at all times be thinking long term and not "we have to win this particular game" at any cost.
As for Bobblehead, your son is doing well while at the same time going against some of the pitch count/rest recommendations that most people consider to be acceptable and that is great for him. I am glad, as you are, that he has no arm problems yet. It reminds me of the stories that you hear about on the news every few years about the 100 year old person who drinks a pint of whiskey and smokes two packs of cigarettes every day. Some people are able to do it and get by with it but the statistics suggest this would not be recommended for most people who wish to remain in good health.
As for Bobblehead, your son is doing well while at the same time going against some of the pitch count/rest recommendations that most people consider to be acceptable and that is great for him. I am glad, as you are, that he has no arm problems yet. It reminds me of the stories that you hear about on the news every few years about the 100 year old person who drinks a pint of whiskey and smokes two packs of cigarettes every day. Some people are able to do it and get by with it but the statistics suggest this would not be recommended for most people who wish to remain in good health.
Hopper....that analogy about the 100 year old was perfect.
Or how about this one....
When soldiers used to line up in rows and shoot each other, several get hit on the first volley, and then more on the second volley and so on. At the end of the day, some soldiers had no wounds at all. Some people defy the odds and it is just good fortune. If you do something dangerous, it doesn't guarantee you will pay for it, it just increases the odds.
Or how about this one....
When soldiers used to line up in rows and shoot each other, several get hit on the first volley, and then more on the second volley and so on. At the end of the day, some soldiers had no wounds at all. Some people defy the odds and it is just good fortune. If you do something dangerous, it doesn't guarantee you will pay for it, it just increases the odds.
The good thing about all these discussions is we keep an important issue alive. The bad part is… We really don’t know anything that gives us any clear answer.
Do those who pitch the most pitches and innings stay healthier because they develop stamina to throw more pitches and innings? Are those who throw less innings safer and more likely to have a long career? Is it really the guys who throw the most that go under the knife?
We really need to study this stuff and even though it might shed some light on the subject, I doubt PAP will give us any definitive answers.
Below is a list of a dozen, recent history, pitchers who threw more innings than most all of their peers. Lots of different deliveries and mechanics in this group. Mostly hard throwers, but some finesse types. Were they just lucky?
Roger Clemens
Steve Carleton
Nolan Ryan
Randy Johnson
Don Sutton
Warren Spahn
Tom Seaver
Greg Maddux
Fergie Jenkins
Tom Glavine
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichal
If all of the above and many other of the greatest pitchers who ever lived were just lucky? That just doesn’t make complete sense to me!
As far as the most pitches… I doubt if anyone comes close to Nolan Ryan who is far ahead of all pitchers in both walks and strikeouts.
Here’s another question? Did these pitchers throw all those innings because they did not suffer serious arm problems? Or did they not suffer serious arm problems because they threw so many innings?
Wouldn’t one “at least” have to wonder if Nolan Ryan’s arm strength was a result of throwing so much or if he would have thrown even better with an even longer career if he would have thrown less pitches? He threw more pitches than anyone in baseball history.
Guys like Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson will always score dangerously high in the PAP stat. Maybe we need to look at the PAP stats a bit closer and dig deep into each individual pitchers results.
It’s easy and makes sense to say things and use numbers to prove a point. But I’m not sure what the PAP numbers are proving, if anything. It’s easy to listen to medical people and believe them when they talk about things. But what makes an orthopedic surgeon an expert on number of pitches an individual arm can throw? Would they also be able to tell us how much weight each one of us can safely lift. I’m betting that would be a much lower number than a lot of athletes lift! They can tell us which mechanics are best for the health of our arm, but can they tell us which mechanics will best make us a successful pitcher?
We can all say that every pitcher who has had elbow/shoulder surgery threw at least one more pitch than he should have under the circumstances. However, the fact is, this is a different number for each pitcher. After all, there is lots of proof that they are not all the same!
In the end, I’m truly with most everyone else here… I’m a believer in the “only so many bullets” theory. I have always used strict pitch counts, sufficient rest between pitching appearances, good conditioning, etc. That is the politically correct way to go and the safest it seems. But I’ve seen well rested arms that were not abused have surgery. And we’ve all seen those who pitch the most pitches and innings stay healthy. Doesn’t anyone wonder about all of that when you set back and think about it? At least, a little confusion? I will admit to being confused!
Do those who pitch the most pitches and innings stay healthier because they develop stamina to throw more pitches and innings? Are those who throw less innings safer and more likely to have a long career? Is it really the guys who throw the most that go under the knife?
We really need to study this stuff and even though it might shed some light on the subject, I doubt PAP will give us any definitive answers.
Below is a list of a dozen, recent history, pitchers who threw more innings than most all of their peers. Lots of different deliveries and mechanics in this group. Mostly hard throwers, but some finesse types. Were they just lucky?
Roger Clemens
Steve Carleton
Nolan Ryan
Randy Johnson
Don Sutton
Warren Spahn
Tom Seaver
Greg Maddux
Fergie Jenkins
Tom Glavine
Bob Gibson
Juan Marichal
If all of the above and many other of the greatest pitchers who ever lived were just lucky? That just doesn’t make complete sense to me!
As far as the most pitches… I doubt if anyone comes close to Nolan Ryan who is far ahead of all pitchers in both walks and strikeouts.
Here’s another question? Did these pitchers throw all those innings because they did not suffer serious arm problems? Or did they not suffer serious arm problems because they threw so many innings?
Wouldn’t one “at least” have to wonder if Nolan Ryan’s arm strength was a result of throwing so much or if he would have thrown even better with an even longer career if he would have thrown less pitches? He threw more pitches than anyone in baseball history.
Guys like Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson will always score dangerously high in the PAP stat. Maybe we need to look at the PAP stats a bit closer and dig deep into each individual pitchers results.
It’s easy and makes sense to say things and use numbers to prove a point. But I’m not sure what the PAP numbers are proving, if anything. It’s easy to listen to medical people and believe them when they talk about things. But what makes an orthopedic surgeon an expert on number of pitches an individual arm can throw? Would they also be able to tell us how much weight each one of us can safely lift. I’m betting that would be a much lower number than a lot of athletes lift! They can tell us which mechanics are best for the health of our arm, but can they tell us which mechanics will best make us a successful pitcher?
We can all say that every pitcher who has had elbow/shoulder surgery threw at least one more pitch than he should have under the circumstances. However, the fact is, this is a different number for each pitcher. After all, there is lots of proof that they are not all the same!
In the end, I’m truly with most everyone else here… I’m a believer in the “only so many bullets” theory. I have always used strict pitch counts, sufficient rest between pitching appearances, good conditioning, etc. That is the politically correct way to go and the safest it seems. But I’ve seen well rested arms that were not abused have surgery. And we’ve all seen those who pitch the most pitches and innings stay healthy. Doesn’t anyone wonder about all of that when you set back and think about it? At least, a little confusion? I will admit to being confused!
PG
I do not thnk there is one true answer---I would rather err on the side of caution--- but then again each and every arm is unique unto itself
But I would still rather have a kid pitch less than more---just add more arms to the roster---even with less innings I think the pitchers can be more successful and IMPRESSIVE
I do not thnk there is one true answer---I would rather err on the side of caution--- but then again each and every arm is unique unto itself
But I would still rather have a kid pitch less than more---just add more arms to the roster---even with less innings I think the pitchers can be more successful and IMPRESSIVE
quote:PG quote:
Here’s another question? Did these pitchers throw all those innings because they did not suffer serious arm problems? Or did they not suffer serious arm problems because they threw so many innings?
Compare that list against a list of all the pitchers who ever threw in the ML and the conclusion that I come up with is that regardless of any life situation there are always exceptions to the rule . Whether it was luck, conditioning, genetics, diet, or the brand of beer they liked, they are but a minute % of the pitchers in the history of the game. With that said, maybe when it all shakes out it's best to as TR said to "error on the side of caution", but also respect/understand/condition your body, push your soul to be the best you can be, and enjoy the game for what it is, your passion. Let fate take over from there as there are some things you can't control.
That's not a bad way to approach anything.
Here we have a great conversation going and there's always one guy in every crowd that has to whip out the color . Sheesh, RZ! .
CPLZ, My therapist said I should add some color to my personality and step outside the box so why not add a little Wisconsin Badger Red in the IL forum to get the blood flowing.
Great topic, don't let it stray because of a token Badger spoutin off
After reading this thread I am convinced of one thing, we are limiting our pitchers to 10 pitches per outing this year. Then maybe work up to maybe 12 or 15 by the end of the season when they have built up arm strength.
I have to ask and I don't want to stray from the subject, but how is that Wisconsin Red wearing up there today after that basketball game yesterday?