Horror stories - 07

CoachB – As a parent I would have to say something to that coach if he did that to my son. How would you suggest a parent should handle this type of situation?

I have an extreme point of view...maybe its because I am not a high school coach so I do not see value in abusing a kid to win a game.

We handle pitchers 18 and over and have for the last 20 years...each pitcher is on a pitch count and the first few weeks only a few guys throw over 40 pitches

I would go up to the coach and say "I think you are abusing my child...I am not telling you how to run your team, I am just telling you how to handle my son"

Coachb25, I totally agree with you. "This is not acceptable." I also have seen this type of abuse with a coach of a freshman team letting a kid throw 146 pitches in one game and the players dad just sat there and let it happen. That was 4 years ago and the player still has arm problems, I believe partially due to that particular incident. That player never pitched again.

First of all parents have to talk to their sons about pitch counts and come to an agreement as to what is acceptable and how to handle a situation when a coach passes that pitch count. When you reach that count, the player should talk to the coach and discuss it and let him know that he has had enough. By the way, I am talking about a reasonable pitch count, not something ridiculous like only 10 or 15 pitches. I know that is very hard for most players to do because they are very competitive and most likely don't want to seem like they are letting down their coach or team. The one thing people have to remember is that some coaches are thinking about that game or that season, not 3 or 4 or years down the line when, hopefully, your son is playing college baseball if he chooses to go that route. Some coaches are very short sighted and the player should be thinking long term. It is not worth one victory if there is pain or lack of success in the future due to that one victory.

One thing, if you would have to resort to it, due to the coach not wanting to remove a pitcher(your son), with high pitch counts is to have him throw some balls into the backstop or into the dirt. I think that is a terrible thing to have to resort to but it is not as bad as ruining someone's future in a sport that they hopefully love. I can't imagine any coach leaving in a pitcher that can't even get the ball over the plate. But I think that we have all been surprized at one time or the other about a coaches actions.

By the way, that is only one or two times I have seen such behavior from a coach. I will have to say that most coaches do care about the player and his future. My son has had very fortunate to have had such coaches!!

What do you guys think of the new Red Sox sensation matsuzaka? Looking at some of innings in high school, how about a 17 inning game (270 pitches) and then closing the next day. What are they doing different then we are? If you are limiting them to 40 pitches early, what have they been doing all winter as far as throwing, arm conditioning, strength work. Most kids I know seem to throw a lot over the winter and are ready to go once the season gets here. I also understand the cold weather idea but how long do you let them sit and then go back out the next inning regardless of pitch count. I too have always watched pitch count, but I would like to see what Japan is doing at some of their baseball high schools in regars to arm care and conditioning. Last thought, as a coach what is the count you go to later in the season? As a parent when would you pull your son off the mound during the state playoffs or would you let him keep going, I've seen it go both ways just thought I would throw it out there for discussion.

2bagger...you make some great points. I agree, it doesn't make any sense to have a kid who has been throwing 60 pitches indoors set back to 30 or 40 as soon as HS workouts begin, which is indoors as well.

It make sall the sense in the world to limit HS Pitchers in total pitches thrown. Some of these Aces are throwing on short rest the whole season compared to what a Major Leaguer does.

In pro baseball, I think they have gone overboard. I'm waiting for a team to show the stones to go to a 4 man rotation like they used to, especially since we now have closers and set-up men. Even the "protection" of a 5 man rotation hasn't made pitchers any more injury proof. The guys that get hurt are the guys who break down mechanically. 300 IP used to be the number and now it is 200 IP. You would think with improved training and conditioning these guys could do it better than those guys from the 60's 70's and before that.

All I know is that the more my kid throws the better he throws. Not that I want him to be throwing 120 pitches every time out.

The other thing is that apitcher who has thrown 146 pitches is not likely pitching well, so why bother?

I sure agree with you on those points fball.

Jack McDowell, ex Sox pitcher hates pitch counts. He asks, how many pitches did a kid throw warming up? Some warm up much longer than others. Also, are they throwing breaking balls or fastballs? To have a set amount of pitches doesn't always make sense. That being said, some limits have to be put in the rules to protect from abuse.

Steve Sakas, my son's first coach said when I asked him what he thought about pitch counts, "when the ball starts getting up in the strike zone, the kid is tired, take him out". Pretty simple.

quote:

Originally posted by CSG:
CoachB – As a parent I would have to say something to that coach if he did that to my son. How would you suggest a parent should handle this type of situation?

CSG, you have to tell the coach that pitching these young men like this is not right. Please don't take this as bragging. It is not. Because I posted this on this site, tonight I called a sophomore over and talked to him about what is acceptable and not. He listen and then I took a Junior who was working his bullpen and told him to do something that I've preached to him for a couple of years now THAT HE WILL NEVER DO. The Junior stepped off and looked at me. All of the seniors starred. I told him again. He then said no. I asked why. He said because you told me DON'T EVER DO IT. I looked at the sophomore and asked him if he had that much guts. That is what we have to have our kids do. (Now, if he had stepped up on that rubber I would have stopped the Junior but I hope you get the point.)

I think that when a kid goes into a game, they should know their pitch count BEFORE the game starts. I think they should be told that if they have a long inning, they are coming out earlier. I think that they need to know that if circumstances change such as changing their arm slot, they are coming out. (Usually fatigue) That assigned pitch count is a BEST CASE SCENERIO. CSG, as a parent of a pitcher even in softball, this would be one of those moments when I'd raise hell. JMHO!

Put a system in place and think it out before the game or week starts and you will be less likely to make decisions with the individual game in mind. Our pitchers get one start a week and our goal is to keep them under 60 innings heading into the playoffs. There is no better way to build a kids confidence early in the season then by putting him into games at critical times. This is a great time to evaluate your entire staff. Another major problem is that kids are not taking 10-14 weeks off a year to let their arms recover from pitching in the summer and spring. Some parents have the kids taking year round lessons and then throwing at showcases when there is no way that their arm is prepared for that activity. Its just not coaches that need to re-evaluate what the kids are doing.

Ballfan. Have you seen Little League has issued new pitching rules, they now adhere to a strict pitch count rather than the ridiculous (6) innings a day rule. If its March and your hs coach has your kid slinging it for more than 60-70 pitches with temps in the 40's you may want to schedule a chat with him.

spinner, I coach at the HS level and we strive to keep our kids healthy and ready for the tournament.

quote:

Looking at some of innings in high school, how about a 17 inning game (270 pitches) and then closing the next day. What are they doing different then we are?

Makes you think .

If a parent talks to a coach I think they have to commit hari kari.

You could be right about the hari kari Bobblehead, but I was questioning what they might be doing different regarding their training.

Maybe they don't set limits. You can't work any harder or smarter than many of our ball players do. Maybe all these pitch counts and limits we set are questionable and setting the guys up for failure. Great conditioning,great mechanics and hard work might knock those barriers down. Maybe we teach our guys to fail.

Its easy to say the right thing and take the high road on this subject, pitch counts and protecting young arms. I wonder if we looked back into the crystal ball ?? Let me set this up, it's the annual suburban blood bath "Little League District Championship" it's one of those hot midsummer evenings your coaching your sons all star team, facing off against your primary rival dad and his superstar kid.....you know you can't win without throwing your number 1 who happens to be your kid and it's going to take all six innings, you have cplz jumping around behind the backstop (picture Ron Howards brother in Steve Martins Parenthood) EVERYBODY wants to win the big game because you know, after Districts the train will be stopping. We all know what most of the dads posting here did or would have done. So quit with the righteous bs. You would have let that kid fire away deep into the night....right coach?

bobblehead you might be right inregards to knocking down some of those barriers. I just through that stuff out there as food for thought and discussion. It would be interetsing to actually see their programs and ideas. Spinner if you were addressing me, sorry I can't help you as I don't know anything about how LL district are setup. I have seen things go both ways however, letting someone fire deep into the night and also coaches that pull them out when they think it is time as the coach didn't think the trophy was all that important when compared to the players development and health. Depends on the program and who runs the program.

2bagger, I believe the shot was at me. Spinner old friend friend (Funny reference to previous post!) if I did do that to any of my pitchers, I deserve to be fired. Today, we had 9 kids throw bullpens and so, in a game, I'm prepared to throw 3-4 kids. I never have to rely on one kid. I have at least 4 kids prepared right now to assume the #1 slot and none of them play a position. When you build a program and not just coach a team, you should be able to do this. JMHO!

Aye Aye Skipper

Hmm...

Regarding a "ban"....

Unless there is more going on behind the scenes I don't know if a ban is appropriate. If so, then th epowers that be will take care of it.

Being a pain in the rear end isn't something that can't be dealt with.

For the record, when my kid was 12, he was on a 3 inning limit (usually the last 3 innings), no if ands or buts. Maybe too conservative? To date he has not had arm problems.

FBD my son and several of his teammates threw 120+ innings for years. At 12 he threw complete games and was a CB pitcher since 9-10. For a few years played on 4 teams in a season and threw all winter. Now 20 and has never had an arm problem. He has been checked out by a doctor atleast twice a year. Last time was last summer and the doctor told him his arm was in excellent shape and to keep doing what he has been doing. a dozen or so of his teammates are all on scholarship and are also injury free. Maybe you are way too conservative and possibly to the detriment of your son and othjers you coach. Just a thought ??

Bobbleheadoll, do you then propose that your example is the norm and not the exception? Do you propose that no damage was ever done and how can you tell? Do you know more about injuries related to pitching than Dr. Jobe or Dr. Andrews? Just a few questions since you took a father to task for being protective of their son's arm.

BHD,

Your son and his buddies were either very lucky, or you're embellishing their exploits just a bit. Why would wou want a 12 yr old throwing complete games? Do you think that encouraging a 9 yr old to throw curves is either necessary or normal? Now, how a person chooses to raise his children is their business, unless we're talking mental or physical abuse. I'm not suggesting that at all.

I know first hand that Dr. Andrews tells his HS pitchers to maintain an 80 pitch limit in games. He doesn't see anything but downside for pushing that limit. Is it done frequently, of course. Are he and Dr. Jobe and Dr. Tim Kremchek just making things up when they claim to have had a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries in the past 5-7 years, primarily in younger players or in college age players that have been overused for years? I still don't understand the importance of winning at all costs when you're 9-12 yrs old. How can you be "too conservative" when dealing with young players? In the end, with the exception of coaches who keep abreast of the medical information that's readily available, it is all about winning.

Coach I didn't take him to task. He stated he might have been too protective.
My doctor is an expert on pitchers arm and arm injury and I listen to him. I am very aware as is he about latent injury. These doctors are surgeons who see injuries all the time. We have several surgeons who train under Andrews. In their field they are renowned for repairing injuries. I have sevral friends who have been operated on by both of them. They were injured at college.
I put my view out there to be discussed. When a pitcher is protected to an extreme he risks the injury when dad is no longer there to protect him from all those bad caoches. It si easy to see that not all pitchers can withstand the rigors of a heavy pitch count.
Neither of those doctors will tell you pitching is good for anyones arm. Pitching period is a risky endevour. My position is that over protective is more dangerous than throwing tons of pitches and long toss and great mechanics.
At one point my son threw 4 times in 5 days if you include ML camps. 2 complete games in 5 days. His arm was dead tired but he felt great. The coach tried to take him out in the 7thy and the 1st time ever he put up an argument. He was losing his control and had walked 3 straight when tied at 2-2. He was 17 and the coach couldn't believe he wanted to go on. It was the AAA district championship game played in a beautiful ball park on Eglinton Ave downtown Toronto.
It is easy to take the high road as stated. I have seen a lot of pitchers who have excessive innings who are in college and injury free. Does that correlate to all kids will be injury free if they follow what these guys did ? No no more than if you protect them with very low, no CB pitching.

BHD,

You've made some interesting points. This discussion is just want this site is supposed to encourage. I agree, pitching is risky endeavour. You also make a valid point when you speak about proper mechanics as being a key component to prevent injury. We don't have to agree on everything but we do agree on some things. Thanks.

I dont have a dog in this disscussion, but i think everyone is on the right track in terms of protecting young arms. I think we are missing the effect of the totality of innings thrown by a "premier pitcher", and we all know some "National" program out there that tout their 12 y.o. kids as just that. Talk about expectations. Take that "National Elite" 12U travel team who are known to schedule up to as many as 80-100 (if not more) games in a season. That is 560-700 innings minimum. Spread that workload by 7 pitchers, and we all know that the top dog eats more of those innings up. So i think it is fair to say that some kids may throw more than the 120 innings per season(or whatever the benchmark is). Oh, but it is over a long season. Now multiply this by 3-4 more seasons, I think we may not yet know the total effect of all this use and i am assuming the player stayed under the seasonal use threshold. The kids who are now in the upper levels of HS are the leading edge of the travel phenomenom in illinois. There is a lot more ball played outside the traditional LL system that before. I guess the ultimate decision maker should be Dad and the player, it would sure stink if a kid missed out on an opportunity to play the game we all love past high school because they threw too many innings winning a trophy.

spinner1

Righteous !!!!!

You are totally off base in inferring other coaches may do what you did or say-- what you are talking about are the so-called elite players 10 thru 13 who are named to so called American Teams where they play for the glory of Daddy and can be named on the front page of certain youth baseball websites

With our travel team 16 thru 18 years olds every game is set up with at least three arms ready to go and the kids know who they are---yes we will make adjustments as the game dictates but we are always set

We also carry 14 to 16 arms for tournaments---some people think we are nuts but the worst that happens is that a few kids may not get as many innings as they might want but we come home with arms that are ready for the next event the follwoing weekeknd


It all depends on what you want for players

TRhit: that is exacatly what i am saying, i agree that the mentality changes when you are discussing at team set up to play in Jupiter and the like, typically those rosters are filled up by 16s and older and are managed/run by a different ethos than the standard glory unto me travel team. But then however, how much use has an arm been through?

tralpaz

We play nearly every weekend from Mid August to the end of October and always have a load of arms---very rarely does a kid throw a complete game---with all the arms we have we can afford to have a very quick hook--- this does two things--first if a kid is struggling we can get him out before the hole gets too deep and secondly if he a kid is struggling we can get him out before he throws too many pitches and is lost for the weekeknd--a kid yanked quickly on Friday will be good for Sunday

I look at some of the younger travel teams that go into tournament play with a 12 man roster and therein, to me at least, is where the problem begins---these kids get worn out in search of trophy at a very young age and they do this over a number of weekends.

I truly believe that the arm problems at a later age HS/College/Pro are the result of cumulative events over the youth years

quote:

I truly believe that the arm problems at a later age HS/College/Pro are the result of cumulative events over the youth years

Can't agree with that at all. A young extremely well conditioned athlete can bounce back after 4-5 days rest and be raoring to go. It is tough menatally but physically it is what they train for.
I have never pushed my son or tried to control him. I try to educate him. He loves visiting his doctor and eats and sleeps BB. He just finished throwing 5 ,1 hit innings in relief against VMI. His face will tell you all I need to know. I am always concerned about injury but I know he is in control and has been since 10 yo. He was a miserable blighter even at that age and I couldn't stop him if I tried.
Our coaches up to college were good coaches overall and they let you go until you were tired or in trouble.

excellent point bobble, not many "WELL" conditioned athletes anymore.

Bobblehead.....So far things have gone great for your son. I hope it continues. keep in mind everyone is different and at different ages their physical developement may or may not coincide with their calendar age. You may be right or you may be lucky. I've heard too many stories about a kid who went that extra inning or two in the big game, threw a ton of pitches and was never quite the same afterwards.

The question you have to ask at the young age groups is "What is the upside?" Sometimes I think winning "National Championships" at age 11 or 12 means more to the parents than the kid. I mean, really....who even cares about who won what at that age?

quote:

too many stories

I agee there are too many stories. Many unsubstantiated ones.
You 1st of all don't know the level of athletezism of the injured player.
Most pros I talk to say kids don't throw enough. I have seen many more catchers have arm issues which tells me mechanics have a major role in injury. They don't even throw CBs. Most of the pitchers I have seen injur themselves did so on FB. My son swears his FB is harder on his arm than a CB.
I can't think of 1 of my son's teammates in the 2 years prior to college had arm injuries. One at Bendictine college in Texas has a broken arm due to horse play with his teammates in the fall.
If I were lucky I would win the lotto.

Bobblehead

Your thinking disturbs me

First a arm injury from horseplay has no relation to arm problesm from misuse

Also arm problems are like heart attacks or a stroke--you don't about them until they happen---they cannot be forecast but you sure can do things to limit the possibility of it happening

TR in both cases you played it right. Our coaches do the same thing generally.
At the Connie Mack NY state championships at Troy NY my son threw Thursday and came out after 4 innings. We were up 6-0. A couple rainouts forced us to play 3 games on Sunday including the championship game. We were the best team there and our guys were slugging the ball. 6 HRs. My son started the Championship game and it was also 100% out and we had to get permission to play the 3rd game. Our guys were gutted from being at the ball park in that heat all day. I taped the game and the guys were running on empty. Lots of errors and not hustling. They didn't even want to be there but they could not play Monday. Personnally I would never have started my son under those condition. I thought he threw well but not well enough.

TR I think you are disturbed very easy.
I understand about latent damage which is why my son gets checked out regularly.
Some players I know have scar tissue that is discovered when they are at the minors as my son's friend did. He is on the 40 man roster of the Pirates this year. Yes he aquired it from previous injuries he didn't take care of. He was examined by a team doctor just like my son gets examined. I doubt this guy ever had great care but he throws in the 90s and is a LHP.
How many of your pitchers get checked out by a proper doctor regularly need it or not ?

Not sure if the thinking here should disturb anyone or take any offense to it. We are looking and exchanging ideas. There are many ways to do this and I think it is great to here from as many as possible.

BHD, I wish your son well!

I think it is important that other views are put forward. I take no offense from TR or anyone getting a little testy. Makes for lively debate. I have been known to stir the pot.

It seems that the warm weather states, Texas, Califonia, Arizona turn out more top players. I have always heard it is because the weather is good and they can play all year. Doesn't that mean that throwing more is better? We throw indoors in the off season, but don't play as many games. If they play more games and get better, why aren't they all breaking down? I don't know the answer, which is why I am asking what you guys think about it.