How common is "Daddy Ball" in college

I know there are exceptions, there are Dads who are good fair coaches/decision makers, but in general I would try to avoid Daddy Ball at any level.  An exception would be in pro Baseball, to a degree, but even then what sane MLB free agent catcher would sign with the Detroit Tigers?  (The GM's son plays Catcher for the Tigers)

I just can't imagine a kid who runs an 8.0 being a serious contender for a starting D1 MIF role.  So, just based on that info, I would think non-issue.

I guess  I would wonder what kind of college coach would have a kid that is an 8.0 runner?  Seems to me that if his job is to coach baseball his son would be a much better player than that.  Heck, even 6'6 270 lb first basemen in HS aren't that slow.  Hard to believe that a coach would risk his reputation to bring a kid like that onto the roster....even if it is his kid

Not that it happens everywhere but think- Tim Esmay @ ASU

Congrats on the D1 looks!

There are a couple of recent and current examples that you can research and draw your on conclusions.

Kyle Serrano played for his HC dad at Tennessee (Kyle was drafted and signed by Houston this year).

Danny Hall, HC at Georgia Tech has one son (rising Jr.) playing for him and his other son (2017 HS grad) about to join him.

Of course a sample size of two doesn't tell you much.  My guess is that any real case of daddy ball would be mutually exclusive of any other as it's totally dependent on the coach/dad, and we can all agree, they vary widely.

It happens, I've seen it happen at a DI here in CA. Some coaches are harder on their own kids, but it's still their kid. Remember who they kiss goodnight. I would be cautious. 

FWIW... An amazing thing that I have learned over the years... many very knowledgeable baseball people who are great evaluators cannot evaluate their own sons accurately.  I said many, not all.

Nuke is correct.  Another I know is Chase Smart at Troy University.  His dad was a long time assistant coach there and then promoted to head coach the year before Chase arrived or maybe the year he arrived.  When I've looked to check on Chase, he was not playing on game and the next game was batting 6 or 7 in order.  Chase is a very good player and could have played at a higher level if not wanting to play for his dad.  I would think a D1 coach is going to play the best 9 in order to keep job security.  If its close, he will most likely give the nod to his own flesh and blood.  If there is a big discrepency, I cannot see a coach risking his job.  Just my .02.

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  Fired maybe, but something to consider. 

Sometimes just the hint of conflict isn't worth it. Kid may be best on team, but some parents may yell daddyball. Sometimes daddyball is just an excuse for a parent to complain. 

Edit-spelling: The space suit gloves NASA gives us for these spacewalks are a little bulky. Sorry. 

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  ...

That's actually a great point... never heard it brought up from that perspective.  There are 9 spots.  Kid can only take one, if that.  As long as the kid is there, you can be pretty sure that the coach will be there and fully engaged in the program.  If you like the coach, this is a plus.

Son looked at a D1 program where the longtime head coach coached two of his sons. The older (better of the two) was a starter but not at the outset. The younger of the two got most of his ABs and starts senior year (dad's last year in program).

The vast majority of college coaches lose their jobs if they lose too many games. As a result, if anything, they tend to be committed to playing the players who give them the best opportunity to win on a consistent basis. Unless I heard other, first-hand reports from current players or parents about blatant favoritism, I wouldn't worry about it.

I have seen kids playing over and over in college baseball and have wondered more than once that if not for the connection to their coach/father, would some other coach provide the same opportunity. 

I am sure there are examples that go the other way as well.  One that comes to mind is Pete Maravich who played for his Dad at LSU.  Pete still holds the all-time NCAA scoring average of 44 points/game for his career - a record I don't see anyone breaking any time soon.  Another one I just remembered was John Elway playing for his Dad at Stanford.

cabbagedad posted:

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  ...

That's actually a great point... never heard it brought up from that perspective.  There are 9 spots.  Kid can only take one, if that.  As long as the kid is there, you can be pretty sure that the coach will be there and fully engaged in the program.  If you like the coach, this is a plus.

Actually it is no guarantee.  A few years ago at Trinity College son was playing for HC.  HC moved on to Harvard and son stayed at Trinity.

I saw this year a D2 team had the coaches son transfer over from another school.  Son started for about the 1st 15 games, hit somewhere around .120.  In the end, the coach is paid to win and he replaced his son as the starter.  So even when there is daddy-ball to start off, sooner or later it comes down to wins.

The conclusion I came to as well, Buckeye, is that this kid will not be looked at for a MIF position or OF position...doesn't have the wheels for it. He may stick in a corner IF position but again, he may not move well enough to even stay there.

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  Fired maybe, but something to consider. 

Sometimes just the hint of conflict isn't worth it. Kid may be best on team, but some parents may yell daddyball. Sometimes daddyball is just an excuse for a parent to complain. 

Edit-spelling: The space suit gloves NASA gives us for these spacewalks are a little bulky. Sorry. 

Not necessarily.  If the kid isn't on baseball scholly he can leave with dad without having to sit out

PGStaff posted:

FWIW... An amazing thing that I have learned over the years... many very knowledgeable baseball people who are great evaluators cannot evaluate their own sons accurately.  I said many, not all.

 

Just like other parents. 

And on the flip side, I read this last year and is an interesting perspective of two kids who won't play for their dad even though both are D1 caliber.

https://olemiss.rivals.com/new...on-for-bianco-s-sons

At the time of the article, neither son had committed, but since the article, one has signed to play at Louisville and the other is committed to LSU.

ClevelandDad posted:

I have seen kids playing over and over in college baseball and have wondered more than once that if not for the connection to their coach/father, would some other coach provide the same opportunity. 

I am sure there are examples that go the other way as well.  One that comes to mind is Pete Maravich who played for his Dad at LSU.  Pete still holds the all-time NCAA scoring average of 44 points/game for his career - a record I don't see anyone breaking any time soon.  Another one I just remembered was John Elway playing for his Dad at Stanford.

Bryce Alford took a lot of crap from fans for dad (Steve) being the UCLA coach. It was especially bad during one losing season. By the time his college career ended he was the #5 all time UCLA scorer. The older brother Corey sat on the end of the bench and rarely played. Hustling practices players who don't bitch about playing time are valuable in college basketball. They're real valuable if they have high gpa's. 

I used a name posters would recognize. There is a long history in college basketball of dad's coaching heir son's. Doug McDermott (Thunder) played for his father at Creighton. Mark Acres (played for several NBA teams) played for his father at Oral Roberts. 

Nuke83 posted:

And on the flip side, I read this last year and is an interesting perspective of two kids who won't play for their dad even though both are D1 caliber.

https://olemiss.rivals.com/new...on-for-bianco-s-sons

At the time of the article, neither son had committed, but since the article, one has signed to play at Louisville and the other is committed to LSU.

Break my heart!!!!! 

1st&3rd posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  ...

That's actually a great point... never heard it brought up from that perspective.  There are 9 spots.  Kid can only take one, if that.  As long as the kid is there, you can be pretty sure that the coach will be there and fully engaged in the program.  If you like the coach, this is a plus.

Actually it is no guarantee.  A few years ago at Trinity College son was playing for HC.  HC moved on to Harvard and son stayed at Trinity.

Correct, for sure 1st & 3rd.  Bad wording on my part...  "you can be pretty sure" should have been "there is a much better chance".

PGStaff posted:

FWIW... An amazing thing that I have learned over the years... many very knowledgeable baseball people who are great evaluators cannot evaluate their own sons accurately.  I said many, not all.

 

As usual, words of wisdom from someone with more experience than most to know the answer to the question.

I will say that my experience at the lower levels indicates you want to avoid "Daddy Ball" at all costs. I have seen example of this in HS, where it had no effect ton my son, but was pretty obvious to any neutral observer.

Now depending on the coaches age and his stature within a program, I have witnessed coaches holding on until their kids gets through the program before retiring. Meaning that they were just marking their time, and would have retired sooner if not to help their son get a roster spot.

Without mentioning any names, a famous coach known for being a pitching guru did just that, and when his son graduated, he retired. He was burned out by that stage due to a lack of support from the administration, and was just marking time. But he stayed long enough to insure his son had the full 4 years student athlete experience. Yet I seriously doubt his integrity would have allowed him to slight another kid on the team over his son. However, and needless to say, not everyone has high enough standards and the intestinal fortitude to separate their own best interests, vs. that of another person.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  Fired maybe, but something to consider. 

Sometimes just the hint of conflict isn't worth it. Kid may be best on team, but some parents may yell daddyball. Sometimes daddyball is just an excuse for a parent to complain. 

Edit-spelling: The space suit gloves NASA gives us for these spacewalks are a little bulky. Sorry. 

Not necessarily.  If the kid isn't on baseball scholly he can leave with dad without having to sit out

Wait, if you're not a scholarship, you still have to sit out a year for a D1 to D1 transfer, right?

Vector posted:

PGStaff posted:

FWIW... An amazing thing that I have learned over the years... many very knowledgeable baseball people who are great evaluators cannot evaluate their own sons accurately.  I said many, not all.

 

As usual, words of wisdom from someone with more experience than most to know the answer to the question.

I will say that my experience at the lower levels indicates you want to avoid "Daddy Ball" at all costs. I have seen example of this in HS, where it had no effect ton my son, but was pretty obvious to any neutral observer.

Now depending on the coaches age and his stature within a program, I have witnessed coaches holding on until their kids gets through the program before retiring. Meaning that they were just marking their time, and would have retired sooner if not to help their son get a roster spot.

Without mentioning any names, a famous coach known for being a pitching guru did just that, and when his son graduated, he retired. He was burned out by that stage due to a lack of support from the administration, and was just marking time. But he stayed long enough to insure his son had the full 4 years student athlete experience. Yet I seriously doubt his integrity would have allowed him to slight another kid on the team over his son. However, and needless to say, not everyone has high enough standards and theintestinal fortitude to separate their own best interests, vs. that of another person.

Phrase of the week for SURE!

2019Dad posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  Fired maybe, but something to consider. 

Sometimes just the hint of conflict isn't worth it. Kid may be best on team, but some parents may yell daddyball. Sometimes daddyball is just an excuse for a parent to complain. 

Edit-spelling: The space suit gloves NASA gives us for these spacewalks are a little bulky. Sorry. 

Not necessarily.  If the kid isn't on baseball scholly he can leave with dad without having to sit out

Wait, if you're not a scholarship, you still have to sit out a year for a D1 to D1 transfer, right?

If a kid hasn't signed an NLI (so no athletic money) he won't have to sit if he transfers....even D1 to D1.....I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is correct

Buckeye 2015 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Go44dad posted:

On the plus side, as long as the kid is there, the coach will be. He wouldn't take another job.  Fired maybe, but something to consider. 

Sometimes just the hint of conflict isn't worth it. Kid may be best on team, but some parents may yell daddyball. Sometimes daddyball is just an excuse for a parent to complain. 

Edit-spelling: The space suit gloves NASA gives us for these spacewalks are a little bulky. Sorry. 

Not necessarily.  If the kid isn't on baseball scholly he can leave with dad without having to sit out

Wait, if you're not a scholarship, you still have to sit out a year for a D1 to D1 transfer, right?

If a kid hasn't signed an NLI (so no athletic money) he won't have to sit if he transfers....even D1 to D1.....I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain this is correct

That's not correct.  A walk-on has the same transfer rules as a player on scholarship.  Even if they want to transfer to a school offering to put them on scholarship.

There are some exceptions/rules that may allow a walk-on to not sit out, so long as he wasn't "recruited" by the school. 

http://informedathlete.com/walk-on-transfer-rules/

http://informedathlete.com/nca...r-division-i-sports/

btw, Rick is a regular contributor on this forum, so he may chime in with more color than you see on his links above.

Buckeye, maybe I don't understand this as well, but I think if you are "recruited", you have to sit a year.  So even a walk on with no money, and I assume no NLI, will have to abide by the transfer rules is he was a recruited athlete.  Now the definition of recruited may be argued, but if this is truly the case, then if dad is the coach, I would bet the NCAA would frown upon the kid leaving and playing right away.  Maybe someone with much more knowledge than I will chime in and correct us.

Ha Nuke, I see we were typing at the same time.  That is how I understand it as well.

I was basing my thoughts on the earlier post that said that kids whose dad's coach at a school may get free tuition.  If that's the case, I'm thinking the kid wasn't "recruited"...he just took free tuition and is playing for his dad.  I guess that would be up to the NCAA's interpretation....but not sure a dad who could send his kid to school for free would have to do much recruiting to get his kid there.  

Isn't there something to do with the amount of actual game time the kid got, as in, did he get any?  If he was the last kid added and saw no field time at all, and had no NLI or money, is he penalized as well if he wants to transfer?

Not positive, but I think if you are on the official roster, you follow the same NCAA rules as everyone else.

PGStaff posted:

Not positive, but I think if you are on the official roster, you follow the same NCAA rules as everyone else.

I believe that PG is correct. It has to do with roster status. If you are a practice squad (non-roster) player you can transfer with no penalty. Otherwise you can't - unless you go NAIA.  Not sure if one year penalty applies if you transfer from being active on a D1 roster to D2 (or D3) but I think it might since it is within NCAA jurisdiction.

Also, as to the original Q, our HC (at a top national program) recruited his son and he was on the team during my senior year.  During that season his son was basically a practice squad guy (though I think he lettered).  He played very little and never in a meaningful game situation.  He practiced and got better and was able to be a role player contributor as an upperclassman. Much as any decent player could do given the opportunity.  I think that is what most coaches would be trying to accomplish if their son was not a star player but was on the team. Given the money being made now by big time college baseball programs (and the salaries being paid to Head Coaches) I can't see a HC risking his job to play his son (or any player) that doesn't give him the best chance to win.

I am going to try and humanize a college coach in support of the view there is no one answer to the questions of the OP.

During our son's 1st 2 years in college, one of the assistant coaches (volunteer at that) had 2 college age sons. One played baseball at Iowa and the other at Oklahoma State. Both were pitchers and both were  good.

Bob rarely got to see either of his son's on a college baseball field.  Actually, until he passed away during the 2002 West Regional, Bob spent his baseball coaching days making our son and everyone on those 2 teams  better players,  more complete players and  players mentally ready for the toughest of challenges.

Since his passing during that Regional, I have often thought about a man/coach/father who gave so much of himself to support our son and many other son's probably at the expense of being able to watch his son's compete.  These feelings were amplified even more recently when I received a CWS ring, which incorporates a beautiful  tribute to Bob for being a major building block for all which came after his death and eventually the CWS we so much wanted for him.

I am certainly not saying every college coach is a Bob Meccage.  No matter how a college coach would approach such a "dilemma" there are sacrifices and challenges.  With some exceptions, I would expect college coaches with college age son's who play baseball face challenges and make decisions we just don't understand from the outside.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

My son has recently been asked to work out at camps for two D1 programs where the head coach's kids are committed in his year group. One is at his position, although with an 8.0 second 60 time I don't quite think there is too many people who would project this kid as a MIF player. The other is at a different position.

Is this a red flag about these programs? As a university employee I can see where a HC would want to give their kid a roster spot (especially if they are a decent player) because they don't have to use scholarship $$$ on them (most colleges offer free tuition for employee/faculty children). I just wonder if these coaches will have blinders on regarding how their kid stacks up against recruited athletes?

What have your experiences been? My son is serious about playing at one school (coach's kid is not in his position), and would consider the other if offered, but that worries me.

SDR - One of my sons travel teammates went to a mid-major D1 where the HC's son was on the team.  Same graduating class.   We were told it was a 3 year disaster until the kid got drafted and the HC dad retired a year later.  The kid could really hit a baseball, and the HC would put him randomly in the field including on the mound.  No rhyme or reason.   It was very clear to everyone that the HC was doing his best to showcase the son (above anyone else) to get drafted while he was the HC.   I saw a number of games and it was pretty clear to me.   There were numerous attitude type issues between the player son and HC father.   Many team parents we knew well shared numerous stories with us in confidence.  

I would not discount an opportunity until you have details from inside the program.  However, it would be a big red flag based on what has been shared with me by many people who went through it.   If there is a hint of Daddy ball run away!  JMO.

When son was at Clemson, Jack Leggett's son was on the roster, he rarely came off the bench. 

However, I know a couple of instances in programs where coaches favored their sons, it wasn't good.