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Smokky1 - Let me preface this by saying 1) I'm not a pitcher or an expert. My son is a pitcher and throws a cutter so I'll share what I think I know and 2) there seems to be a gray area between a cutter and a slider (more on this later).
The grip - the fingers (pointer and middle) are held together like a curve but on top of the ball, slightly off center to the right of the ball (for a RH). In relation to the seams, I think his fingers are between the seams with the tips close to / touching the "U" part of the seam and the outside of the middle finger running along the seam.
The release - snap hard down through the right half of the ball like a fastball but the middle finger pushing on the seam causes a sharp late break. It's not a "door knob turning" action.
"Slider" versus "cutter" - The guy who taught my son this pitch originally, referred to it as a slider. His most recent pitching coach said it's actually a cutter with the difference being that with a slider you twist your wrist like turning a door knob and I think the fingers are more off to the side. Both were MLB pitchers so I'm not sure which one is right but I've heard others refer to this pitch as a cutter as well.
The grip - the fingers (pointer and middle) are held together like a curve but on top of the ball, slightly off center to the right of the ball (for a RH). In relation to the seams, I think his fingers are between the seams with the tips close to / touching the "U" part of the seam and the outside of the middle finger running along the seam.
The release - snap hard down through the right half of the ball like a fastball but the middle finger pushing on the seam causes a sharp late break. It's not a "door knob turning" action.
"Slider" versus "cutter" - The guy who taught my son this pitch originally, referred to it as a slider. His most recent pitching coach said it's actually a cutter with the difference being that with a slider you twist your wrist like turning a door knob and I think the fingers are more off to the side. Both were MLB pitchers so I'm not sure which one is right but I've heard others refer to this pitch as a cutter as well.
In general, younger pitchers throwing cutters makes me nervous because you can end up with guys twisting their wrists.
The safe(r) way for a RHP to throw a cutter is to grip it like a 4-seamer or a 2-seamer but with the middle finger slightly to the left (not the right) of the middle of the ball. You then throw it just like a fastball. However, since you gripped the ball slightly off-center, the ball will come off the hand with both backspin and sidespin (e.g. rotation on a vertical axis). That sidespin will cause the ball to move slightly horizontally.
I do not like RHP to grip the ball off-center to the right because that can lead them to supinate their forearms as they release the ball and that can lead to elbow problems. It will also cause the ball to run in on a RH batter, which is OK if the ball is up in the zone (b/c it can lead to a broken bat) but deadly if the ball is down in the zone (some hitters can handle balls that are down and in).
The safe(r) way for a RHP to throw a cutter is to grip it like a 4-seamer or a 2-seamer but with the middle finger slightly to the left (not the right) of the middle of the ball. You then throw it just like a fastball. However, since you gripped the ball slightly off-center, the ball will come off the hand with both backspin and sidespin (e.g. rotation on a vertical axis). That sidespin will cause the ball to move slightly horizontally.
I do not like RHP to grip the ball off-center to the right because that can lead them to supinate their forearms as they release the ball and that can lead to elbow problems. It will also cause the ball to run in on a RH batter, which is OK if the ball is up in the zone (b/c it can lead to a broken bat) but deadly if the ball is down in the zone (some hitters can handle balls that are down and in).
quote:Originally posted by Beezer:
there seems to be a gray area between a cutter and a slider (more on this later).
A slider is throw with a twisted or supinated wrist (e.g. palm of RHP facing halfway down the 1B line). A cutter is thrown with the palm facing the target.
Smokky1,
First question is how old are you ?
2nd, do you have good control (can hit your spots consistently) over both a 4-seam & 2-seam fastball?
3rd, same as #2 but with a change-up ?
First question is how old are you ?
2nd, do you have good control (can hit your spots consistently) over both a 4-seam & 2-seam fastball?
3rd, same as #2 but with a change-up ?
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
I do not like RHP to grip the ball off-center to the right because.....It will also cause the ball to run in on a RH batter
My son's breaks down/away from a RH hitter.
quote:Originally posted by Beezer:quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
I do not like RHP to grip the ball off-center to the right because.....It will also cause the ball to run in on a RH batter
My son's breaks down/away from a RH hitter.
That sounds like a slider rather than a cutter given the movement.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
That sounds like a slider rather than a cutter given the movement.
But he's not "twisting" it, he snaps down, just like a fastball.
Sounds like a slurve to me, but what do I know.
Im 15, and recently started throwing a cutter after having inconsistance in my spike curve.
I haven't been able to have any consistance in any breaking pitch except my cutter.
I throw it like mentioned in the 2nd post, but rather then having a small break, it has more of a hard late break action...
Probably because I sort of snap and emphisize the break on it [slider]
Its worked so far, and pain free as well.
I haven't been able to have any consistance in any breaking pitch except my cutter.
I throw it like mentioned in the 2nd post, but rather then having a small break, it has more of a hard late break action...
Probably because I sort of snap and emphisize the break on it [slider]
Its worked so far, and pain free as well.
quote:Originally posted by Dh33:
I throw it like mentioned in the 2nd post, but rather then having a small break, it has more of a hard late break action...
Probably because I sort of snap.
I never said it was "small".
not one to brag but i have made a life out of throwing a cutter. i have two other pitches but in my last 4 starts i have thrown only 5 pitches that wernt cutters, and i just reccently beat Cinncinatti Elder (the #25 team in the nation) at UC in the reginol finals for Ohio. how i throw mine is simple. take either your four seam or two seam fastball grip and move the top two fingers over so the ball is off center then just throw in like a fastball. the off-center grip will pull your wrist off center on its own and the fastball throwing style will give the ball its own rotation, giving it cut.
quote:take either your four seam or two seam fastball grip and move the top two fingers over so the ball is off center ......
Which side of the ball do you move your fingers to? Left of center, or right of center?
My cutter grip(Left handed):
4 seam fastball grip, sweet spot of ball facing toward my body and the "U" seam along my ring finger. I move my pointer and middle finger toward the sweet spot, so I move my fingers to the right of center.
I release it just like a fastball, but I release it off my middle finger. I never twist my wrist.
The ball starts off like a fastball toward the heart of the plate and then dives in on a righty and away from a lefty.
I justed started throwing the pitch this past offseason. Picked it up in November and just started tossing the ball around with that grip trying to make sure I didn't twist my wrist and released it off the middle finger. Didn't throw it in a bullpen til January.
Talk about a career saving pitch.
FWIW, I stole the grip from an article done by the STL Post-Dispatch back in November. They showed each of the St. Louis Cardinals 5 starting pitchers grips for their best pitch. They photographed Matt Morris' curveball grip, Mark Mulder's splitter grip, Jason Marquis' sinker grip, Jeff Suppan's fosch grip(stole that too) and Chris Carpenter's cutter grip.
I just reversed Carp's grip to accomodate a lefty.
BTW, the fosch ball is an easy pitch to learn and a fantastic pitch.
4 seam fastball grip, sweet spot of ball facing toward my body and the "U" seam along my ring finger. I move my pointer and middle finger toward the sweet spot, so I move my fingers to the right of center.
I release it just like a fastball, but I release it off my middle finger. I never twist my wrist.
The ball starts off like a fastball toward the heart of the plate and then dives in on a righty and away from a lefty.
I justed started throwing the pitch this past offseason. Picked it up in November and just started tossing the ball around with that grip trying to make sure I didn't twist my wrist and released it off the middle finger. Didn't throw it in a bullpen til January.
Talk about a career saving pitch.
FWIW, I stole the grip from an article done by the STL Post-Dispatch back in November. They showed each of the St. Louis Cardinals 5 starting pitchers grips for their best pitch. They photographed Matt Morris' curveball grip, Mark Mulder's splitter grip, Jason Marquis' sinker grip, Jeff Suppan's fosch grip(stole that too) and Chris Carpenter's cutter grip.
I just reversed Carp's grip to accomodate a lefty.
BTW, the fosch ball is an easy pitch to learn and a fantastic pitch.
quote:Originally posted by Krakatoa:quote:take either your four seam or two seam fastball grip and move the top two fingers over so the ball is off center ......
Which side of the ball do you move your fingers to? Left of center, or right of center?
Ditto.
BTW - Good luck Friday.
2 seam fingers on top of strings, unequal pressure(lighter) with index finger, no twisting of anything
For those who don't know, a cutter (actually called a cut-fastball) acts like half a slider, just like how a slider acts like half a curveball.
quote:Originally posted by Mr3000:
For those who don't know, a cutter (actually called a cut-fastball) acts like half a slider, just like how a slider acts like half a curveball.
Are you referring to the break results? I was always under the impression that a true curve should break down (12-6), a slider down about 30 - 45 degrees and in or away and a cutter more like 15 - 20 degrees.....is this what you mean?
i know there will be alot of negative posts from this but my hs coach taught some of our pitchers a safe way of throwing a slider/ cutter. instead of twisting your wrist grip the ball off center (right side of the ball for a rhp) when you throw it, bring your fingers into your ribs, if your fingers are facing to your left then you have twisted your wrist. i have thrown the pitch for two years without any arm pain. and from what i have seen this is the way many major leaguers are throwing it.
quote:Originally posted by ballslinar21:
i know there will be alot of negative posts from this but my hs coach taught some of our pitchers a safe way of throwing a slider/ cutter.
Pssssst.....read some of the posts above yours.
pssssst, just giving a tip about pulling the fingers into the ribs not next to the knee. nobody wrote about that.
quote:Originally posted by ballslinar21:
pssssst, just giving a tip about pulling the fingers into the ribs not next to the knee. nobody wrote about that.
Point well taken. I guess my sarcasm was aimed more at the "twisting wrist". My apologies. Carry on.
thats all right
I throw my cutter with a 2 seam grip (RHP) and move my fingers to the glove side seam. when i release i pronate just a bit and it moves pretty well
