How does your fast ball measure up to these numbers? RHPs Added

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Your right. Got some fun out of this...

Gives us some well needed perspective into the velocity issue. I know players who have been told they are way under velocity. When they take a look at this they will realize that they are not so underpowered. Interesting.

Also really highlights the increase in velocity by age. Gives hope to an '06 who is being told that he is not fast enough. I will definately pass this info on.

Would be interesting to track the 30 88's since the sample size is large, and see how many increase and by how much. Not scientific obviously but interesting.

Also while I understand that there is a great deal more to it than velocity It would be interesting to follow up and see what velocities got what ultimate placement.


Thanks.

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I picked LHPs for 2 reasons. 1. My son is a LHP and 2. There aren't very many of them. I will try to do the others over the next week or so.
The showcases were 2005 cal underclass, 2005 NE top prospects, 2005 SE underclass, and 2 more that I forgot to record the name.

Another thing to remember is that PG posts max velocities, not cruising velocities if I remember correctly. Even so my born in '91 righty has a ways to go to hit 83 like that born in '90 lefty did.

I am not at all suprised by these stats. It reinforces my belief that the kids playing in these showcases are not actually the best of the best. They are merely the kids who's parents have the money and or connections to get them this exposure. Sound like sour grapes ? It is. My kid will surely have to put up some temendous numbers in the school season to ever get any one's attention. It's a shame if you ask me. There are alot of good hitters out there with great potential who never get a look for whatever the reason. Take being slow for example. A slow kid has a very hard time getting a look. But what does speed actually have to do with hitting a baseball? I never have got an answer to that one. Anyway.... these numbers you posted are typical for what I've seen while clocking pitches with my Stalker Radar Gun.(For Sale) I have found that the average varsity fast ball for this area is only about 76-78 mph. Anything above 80 is a good varsity FB and mid 80's are not that common.

Fun numbers. Sure looks like the year 1990 kids are a pretty impressive bunch, or perhaps their numbers are skewed high because only the best of the best showcase that early???? Hard to say.

rdfrazier

What does speed have to do with hitting a baseball - nothing - expect bat speed of course, which means a LOT.

What does speed have to do with getting safely on base AFTER you hit the ball - EVERYTHING.

Speed is also very helpful when you are running down a ball in the field.

quote:

Anyway.... these numbers you posted are typical for what I've seen while clocking pitches with my Stalker Radar Gun.(For Sale) I have found that the average varsity fast ball for this area is only about 76-78 mph. Anything above 80 is a good varsity FB and mid 80's are not that common.

rdfrazier, Why are you selling it? Not accurate?
Fungo

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Dad...My '06 is a lefty..I can see why you did lefties, who cares about those guys who throw with the wrong (right) arm!!...

Frazier...Would agree on some skewing based on $.

We fought the speed battle as well...Keep up the hope...It's not where a player starts but where he finishes..often the slower kids are the bigger kids who mature late...my '05 simply kept hitting amd maturing until they could not longer ignore him regardless of his speed.

The logic that recruiters and scouts use is Fast twitch muscle fibre %. They figure if it's in the legs it's in the arms. Don't know of any scientific study linking the two, but it appears to be common knowledge now. And if they believe it it makes it true because they make the decisions. Fighting that battle again with my '06 lefty pitcher. Am told that slow feet make for slow hands, at the plate or on the mound.

Fungo, It is accurate to within .1 mph I just need the money more than the gun right now. Includes a display board and a battery handle with charger. $900

You wanted Righties!
Here are the RHPs from the 2005 SE Top Prospect and 2005 SE underclass. By the way you guys owe me a lunch break!
H # W FB
6'7" 3 188.33 79.67
6'6" 0 0 0
6'5" 5 196.60 82.60
6'4" 6 195.83 84.83
6'3" 9 188.44 83.78
6'2" 11 178.64 83.27
6'1" 5 179.60 81.80
6'0" 12 175.08 82.67
5'11" 10 169.70 80.80
5'10" 0 0 0
5'9" 1 180.00 80.00
5'6" 1 178.00 70.00


BY # FB
86 0 0
87 23 82.48
88 32 82.13
89 8 83.13
90 0 0

Not surprised, but it is nice to see some number crunched validation. Thanks for the info.

quote:

the average varsity fast ball for this area is only about 76-78 mph.

I said the exact same thing here last year and got jumped on. Plenty of 72 mph pitchers on varsity teams. A few can be very effective.

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Keep those numbers coming guys. Question: Can pitchers be TOO tall?

Those stats reveal something else: Lefties are fatter than Righties!

What does THAT mean?

rd, I may be interested in that gun. Does having the display board mean you can set it up for use without holding the gun? eg. my son could use it by himself? How can I contact you? I think I'm pretty close to you anyway.

Those that mention "the best of the best" should check the results of the PG National held last year at Turner Field.

Also when trying to find the "best of the best" you would want to look for the those who were the "Best" at various events.

If one throws 90 mph and the other throws 70 - the average is 80. Would this mean neither was all that good?

If I find time, maybe I will do the study based on pitchers at the National or an event like Jupiter. If someone else does it, maybe it will mean more.

I think it would show much different results and reflect the "best of the best" a bit better.

While I have a very limited sample I think the numbers show what we have all suspected..you find one or two exceptional pitchers and the rest are of course average, thats the definition of average right? The kids who are pitching in high school are typically the best in their school district, and no matter the district most are about the same. I did look at the numbers from the 2005 Showcase at the AFLAC Classic. The studs were at the classic and you can boost the over all numbers for my small sample by adding them into the mix. If you look at the numbers of kids attending the PG showcases and assume they are the ones going to college then your college pitchers are not that fast. If the kids going to PG are not the ones going to college then why are they going to PG in the first place?

I know you are going to ask so here are the RHPs from the Aflac Classic Showcase. These kids came from the following states FL(3), NJ(2) AR(1), MD(1) DC(1), CA(1)

Height Number Weight FB
6'4" 2 167.00 89.50
6'3" 3 193.33 87.00
6'2" 1 195.00 92.00
6'1" 1 185.00 89.00
6'0" 2 180.00 88.50



BY Number FB
87 3 88.33
88 6 88.83

Excuse the cut and paste, and I don't think PG Staff would mind, but here is their post about the velocity at the latest AFLAC classic:

quote:

The gun readings that showed up on FOX were way off. I was in the TV booth when the announcers noticed a 80 something reading on Latos in the first inning. It sure didn't look like 80 somthing so I called down to our scouts. It was 94 mph!

This went on the entire game and those scouts that didn't brave the heat could have been mislead.

Here are the actual top gun reading for each pitcher in the Aflac Game. According to the Stalkers we used. There were many that showed up in the mid 80s on TV that were actually in the low 90s.

Latos - 94
Walden, J - 93
Betances - 95
Miller - 89
Willems - 94
Hammack - 88
Kiker - 94
Tillman - 94
Rasmus - 94
Jenkins - 89
Walden, C. - 91
Anderson - 92
Sullivan - 87
Jeffress - 95
Drabek - 96

While there are some that have thrown better in the past, there were some that were better at the Aflac Game.

2005 Aflac Classic Showcase LHPs. PA (2), MD(1),NY(1), TN(1) There were actually 6 lhps but one did not have his FB speed listed.

Height Number Weight FB
6'5" 1 190 88
6'4" 1 180 89
6'3" 1 195 88
6'2" 1 185 85
5'11" 1 175 86


BY Number FB
87 3 87.33
88 2 87

And after your fast ball measures up are you getting batters out?

If you fast ball does not measure up are you getting batters out?

Even with great velocity a pitcher needs control and command of his pitches and has to get batters out

quote:

The logic that recruiters and scouts use is Fast twitch muscle fibre %. They figure if it's in the legs it's in the arms. Don't know of any scientific study linking the two, but it appears to be common knowledge now. And if they believe it it makes it true because they make the decisions. Fighting that battle again with my '06 lefty pitcher. Am told that slow feet make for slow hands, at the plate or on the mound.

Observer44,
What do you base this on? A lot of showcases don't even have pitchers run for time. Also, there are a lot of slow pitchers with good fastballs. I'd be surprised if a belief that fast twitch fibers in the legs = fast twitch fibers in the arms argument was common among scouts. In any case, there are too many other factors that go into fastball velocity that have nothing to do with fast twitch fibers vs slow twitch.

CAdad,
Of the 72 players I now have on the RHP spreadsheet. 54 had 60 times listed. I can see no relationship between the 60 time and the FB speed. I also have those times in my spread sheet.

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CaDad...Dad4boys

Good questions...

Based this on my 4 years of showcase experience and my contacts with college recruiters, coaches, showcase directors, and travel team coaches.

After doing the recruiting with my '05 and now with my '06...Have developed some excellent contacts in the recruiting business who trust me enough to be open with me and me with them.

While I know it is hard to believe I can tell you that heard this view from a variety of VERY well respected sources and this viewpoint is indeed out there.

It is particularly used to measure projectability when it comes to future velocity.

Typical example (could be recruiting scenerio #3!):...

6'6" lefty, gets kids out, 3 solid pitches, good pedigree BUT only throws 80-82. Will he gain significantly more Speed in the next few years and become a force? If he can run fast he is thought to have an excellent chance to, If not he is considered a risk.

I have said this before, the good news is that you and I and most everyone has yet to be convinced that it there is a connection, and this is not yet common wisdom...

But he bad news is that if some of the recruiters believe it, and they are making the decisions/rules then it is effectively true: pitchers who run faster are likley to be looked upon with more favor. Now while it may only be 25% of the recruiters, it still takes 25% of the schools out of the mix for an aspiring player who may indeed have a bright future but does not have speed.

Indeed it is true that some showcases do not run pitchers, but many do.

Observer:

I think the scouts are missing the boat on this one - fast runners vs fast throwers... I am thinking about the fireballers of my youth - Ryan, Seaver, Gossage - all looked alike - huge thighs and stocky builds - not exactly the runners build. Yes Koufax was a little more lean and Guidry was also lean - but I would venture to say that they were an exception rather than the rule.

Today's hardest throwers are not exactly fast runners either - Johnson (can he run?), Clemens, Wagner - none of them are likely to steal a base anytime soon...

Which real scout is missing the boat? Which scout claimed that fast runners are "fast" throwers?

I think the "run fast" term used by a coach or scout describing the potential of a pitcher is used to determine if the pitcher is athletic. An athletic pitcher will usually have a higher ceiling than an unathletic pitcher. Running is one of the ways to judge athletic ability. There are many other ways, also.

Regarding the mention of a 5-11 LHP in the Aflac game. There was only one in the Aflac Game and pretty much every fastball he threw was in the 90s, up to 94 mph.

All those who claim the secret is to get outs... OF COURSE!!! But at the high school ages just being able to get outs will not always get you into Major College. If you are throwing in the 90s, that will ALWAYS get you places. If you are throwing in the 90s and getting outs, which ALL the good ones do! You could end up being a very high draft pick!

When looking at the highest ranked pitchers each year, you will find two things. They throw hard and they are very successful at the high school level! Just for kicks, can anyone name the last low 80s high school pitcher to go high in the draft?

I didn't think so

People can argue all they want... It aint likely to change soon! Please excuse the honesty!

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08 Agreed...and I have a personal interest. My two ('05, '06) are very tall, slow afoot, and late maturers. Was told the footspeed thing about both, but the '05 went DI anyway...

Gonna be fun to prove those footspeed guys when the boys reach full maturity.

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quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Observer:

I think the scouts are missing the boat on this one - fast runners vs fast throwers... I am thinking about the fireballers of my youth - Ryan, Seaver, Gossage - all looked alike - huge thighs and stocky builds - not exactly the runners build. Yes Koufax was a little more lean and Guidry was also lean - but I would venture to say that they were an exception rather than the rule.

Today's hardest throwers are not exactly fast runners either - Johnson (can he run?), Clemens, Wagner - none of them are likely to steal a base anytime soon...

IMO - The scouts arent missing any boats. They are driving the boats. LOL

I also think it is impossible to effectively argue against what PG just posted.

If you can throw around 90 mph and have decent control - in high school - you dont have to worry about anything else for the time being.
You dont even need much movement on the ball because you will most likely blow away just about every hitter you face in high school.

Once you get into college - you better start pitching - or you will get annihiliated - at any speed.

IMO

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PG staff...Itsin...

Agreed. Good posts.

With all due respects....the sources are irrelevent...The important part is that it is out there.

As far as speed being a way to measure athletic ability, yes it does but IMO it is a pretty simplistic measure. Particularly for pitchers.

Thanks PG you are the first person who has echoed my cry of "qualifying velocity"....

quote:

If you are throwing in the 90s, that will ALWAYS get you places.

at 90 MPH you qualify for most everyhting, even if you are a project. Now agreeed you have to be able to pitch to be successsful and get further, but 90 qualifies for most anything you want out of HS.

Watched kids at the area code try out's a few years ago who understood this and simply threw as hard as they could without much concern for location..Nintey one MPH. One made the team.

Observer,

Speed is just ONE thing that shows athletic ability.

The reason I mentioned it was because of the post that referred to a college coach projecting a pitcher.

Nothing is fool proof, but two identical high school pitchers in size, pitchability and velocity, the one with the most athletic ability has the most potential to get better.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Perhaps, the college coaches that mentioned the running speed of the pitcher, shares that opinion.

So, while there may not be any direct correlation between running speed and throwing speed.(lots of hard throwing = slow runners)

There is a direct correlation between athletic ability and throwing hard. IMO

By the way, These are not scientific facts here! Just a not-so-smart guy's opinion!

PG Staff:

I could not agree more - good athletes do have higher ceilings than lesser athletes. and

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:

Running is one of the ways to judge athletic ability. There are many other ways, also.

end quote

I think this is the key - all of the guys I mentioned were also good athletes - just not fast runners. The point is that if speed is the only way athletism is measured, some good pitchers will get left behind. I am not talking about the 90+ guys - any one who can read a radar gun knows what do do with 90+ - but rather about the 82-85 MPH guys who still has has a lot of growing to do. Those are the ones that can get left behind...

08Dad,

Very true! But have faith because there are a lot of real good scouts and college recruiters.

The running speed is perhaps the most obvious and easiest to compare athletic ability. It's just as easy as reading a radar gun.

Good balance, coordination, timing, instincts, body control, reflexes, quickness, etc. are all athletic abilities. As is the ability to throw an object accurately and hard, all by itself! It takes athletic ability to throw a baseball 85 to 90 mph.

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PG agreed. Don't see any no-so-smart guys only smart ones.

08...Exactly. Well said.