How important is the killer instinct in pitchers?

Here's a line from Tommy Lasorda's scouting report on Tom Seaver:

"…Boy has plenty of desire to pitch and wants to beat you."

That says it all.  Tom Seaver was a real competitor, and a class act.  He never wanted to come out of a game.  You could do a lot worse for a role model.

Two words "Bob Gibson"!!!

Ask Willie Mays

Bob

Very interesting question.

First, I think there is a difference between being hyper-competitive and having a killer instinct.  So, we may need to differentiate.  I do think a pitcher would have a higher likelihood of success with either than without.  Surely, you have to be a bit of a competitive adrenaline junkie to be willing to endure the grind at the college level and higher just for the opportunity to play.  Also, the objective of the game is to compete/win.  So, many things point to  "yes" you must be competitive.

However, I have a few anecdotal observations. 

We have a young P that had an extremely successful year as a freshman on a V team that made a deep playoff run.  He exudes confidence and composure well beyond his years when he is on the bump.  This same player plays JV basketball, now a soph.  At this point in time, he is quite a different player on the court.  He doesn't show the same traits at all.  To watch him on the court today, you would say he lacks the hyper-competitive killer instinct.  It may still come but it isn't quite there yet on the court.

Some players have that competitive fire and it shows in everything they do.  Others show it or feel it just in spots where they are more comfortable or more confident.

Here is another angle...

We've had some kids come through our program who are more like artists, more interested in performing well, perfecting their craft rather than relishing in gutting out ugly wins.  Combining a young P of this ilk with a smart pitching coach calling the game resulted in some remarkably successful outings.   

Well, not to put a damper on the conversation but at the highest levels of baseball nearly all have the inner drive to win.  If not, they wouldn't be there. 

I coached a kid who at 16 I would have thought would have gone far.  He was super-competitive, always wanting to steal home.  Just never developed a good fastball and his mid-80's fastball at 16 was a mid-80's fastball at 18.  Ended up playing at a D3 (which is good) but was just okay.

Unfortunately for the Horatio Algers of this world for every kid with the killer instinct that throws 85 I can name 30 or 40 more that throw 90+ with that same killer instinct.  Gotta have the tools irrespective.

What I find interesting is some kids just naturally have the killer instinct and some don't. My son had it from day one. Maybe its from being the younger kid. It could have been from seeing the intensity in my wife and I when we competed in anything. But his older sister lacked killer instinct until she was fourteen and grew into one of the tallest girls.

From my perspective and experience it is extremely important.   It can be an instinct, and it can be learned.  Like any sport there, there has to be an attitude and a basic understanding of a situation.  Mental toughness is very important.  Throwing the right pitch at the right time in the right location to put a hitter away or force contact on the pitchers terms is the name of the game.   If you do that many times, you increase your teams chances to earn the "W".

Is the kid successfull on the mound? Not every player has to be the same. He may be more calm or easy going than others and that's ok. Maybe he doesn't have real passion for game and HS is it for him.

What's the feeling like w your relationship? Noticed it's not your son. The idea of giving him book/advice may be over the line. Our coach would not take any parent getting involved. If the pitchers parents r good friends of your and have asked for advice that's one thing but if not I would not make your opinion known. They may not appreciate comments on their son.

Do yourself, the team, your kid and the player a favor; think it don't say it.  Only give opinions when asked for one(and sometimes not even then).  What is the old saying about opinions.... aww I cant put that here.

If its not positive, its negative.

Would someone like to define what “killer instinct” in a pitcher is? If it has anything to do with what pitch/location is called, if the pitches are called from the bench, how does whatever instinct the pitcher has make any difference?

<input id="mac_address" type="hidden" value="" />

I also think it's very important.  As a pitcher and a position player.

Recently I picked my son up from school, right after his last class on that particular day, which was gym.  They had just started playing floor/field hockey in that class. My son, much to my dismay as I played ice hockey for many years, never had any interest in the sport.  But put a competitive game into the mix, which is what they do during gym, and it's game on.  Walked out of there sweating and after some prodding, told me they won 16-14 and he scored 11 goals and assisted on several others.  

It's the competitive nature that drives some kids.  

Having called for pitches for literally thousands of pitchers, I just don't think its that simple....there are a number of attributes that do add to the success of a pitcher but to put any additional plus or take off any additional minus seems overreaching.. 

Competitive nature- as the only player who is involved on every pitch to every other player, a competitive nature is needed. This part of baseball, the Man to Man match-up of pitching requires you to face each batter, strong or weak with equal determination.... what I'd like to point out is that competitive nature is not an outward expression of exasperation, throwing gloves, yelling at teammates, or gesturing towards umpires. Competitive nature for a pitcher is more an excitement, and anticipation to test your ability against the batters ability.   

Short Memory-what you did last game. last pitch. last year, all in the past...give up the dinger, you got to reset and come back. Hit a player with an inadvertent inside pitch, you still have to work your plan for the next batter..

A ducks back- you did your job, got the pop up, got the ground ball, got the strike out and a teammates action causes the play to go against you......the pop fly is dropped, the ground ball is muffed, the 3K is uncaught.....an overthrow.....you got to have the composure to let it roll off like water off a ducks back. Most pitchers I've seen come unglued are resulted from teammate errors they could not have influenced.

Baseball reality- You strike out the all-star slugger, then make a great pitch that the 3rd string reserve gets a bloop single off....a dying quail, a ground ball with eyes, all part of the game.....so is a good piece of hitting.....even a great pitch, great location.can end up going for a hit...

Composure-pitching is a pressure position. Throw a no hitter but lose 1-0 on errors and you still get the L in the loss column. Ive seen pitchers come out and warm up and throw 5 straight BB's into the strike zone...then a fastball inside, then a fast ball outside and a nasty curve for a strike..an exceptional 8 pitch warmup......then the batters step into the box and they walk the next 4 batters........inadvertently hitting a batter falls in here too.....you got to be able to start fresh with the next batter..

I don't know the full recipe for making great pitchers, but those are some of the ingredients.... 

Originally Posted by Soylent Green:

…Making a three or four hole basher ground out weekly to 2nd on "his" pitch is just as satisfying to him as getting a guy to swing and miss on high heat. …

This makes my question even more on point. If the pitcher has no say-so in what pitch is called, how can any pitch be considered “his” pitch? I’m not arguing that there’s no merit in the thought, but rather that there has to be more to it than some “killer instinct”.

I’d argue that in situations where the pitcher has little or no control over what’s thrown, rather than “killer instinct”, what being seen is a player ultra-driven to execute what he’s doing better than the hitter executes what he’s doing.

Bum, Jr's first D1 coach (no names) liked to carry around a sports psychology book.  Basically, he wanted to see pitchers look really p***** off and wig out when they gave up a bomb or a walk.  I never understood that.  Always taught Bum, Jr. to be like Clint Eastwood out on that mound and have composure.

Some confuse the "killer instinct" with outward expressions or mannerisms.  I know that coach did.  Probably why he (the coach) never pitched past JC.

The one thing I've noticed in pitchers that make it to the highest levels isn't so much "killer instinct" as it is they have "No Fear". I guess some would say that is the same thing.

However, when I look at a knuckleball pitcher for example, I have a hard time thinking "killer instinct". Yet the most successful ones have no fear.

Composure on the mound and no fear... Amen!  The "killer instinct" is maybe better stated as piaa ump stated it... "competitive nature".  I guess whatever you call it, pitchers need to have it.  But to me it's an internal drive, not theatrics.  It's always about executing the next pitch.

Stats4Gnats - I think maybe you're saying the same thing.  As far as calling pitches, I know some coaches insist on this which I think is generally a mistake.  I think more often the coach is offering guidance more than insisting.  Pitcher usually makes the decision... he can shake off a sign and get what he wants... unless the coach strictly wants what he wants.  My experience as player, coach and now dad has generally been that pitch calls are a sort of give and take communication between pitcher, catcher and coach... a sort of rhythm that weaves throughout a guy's outing.  Sort of like, if we're all thinking the same thing... then that's a good sign.  Ultimately the pitcher executes... and to me it's always "his" pitch.

Love your post piaa_ump.  I think that encapsulates pretty close to everything.  Bum, I agree with you as well and PG kind of adds the icing on the cake with the no fear aspect.  I do not think at all that a pitcher needs to outwardly show his competitiveness.  Some of the best didn't.  Maddux has been mentioned and one of the best examples of this was Tom Glavine.  Not saying the other isn't OK, but just because a pitcher doesn't throw a fit on the mound or jump up and down after a strikeout, doesn't mean he isn't competitive.

My son is one of the most competitive people I know.  In everything.  Doesn't matter if they are playing pick up basketball, flag football, cards or just arguing a point with a friend.  He does not want to lose.  Ever.  In many of these things, you will see the outward manifestation.  I've seen him argue with a friend ad nauseum about a ridiculous point that doesn't even matter.  But, when he gets on the mound, you would never know if he's winning or losing.  But, after many years of watching him, I can tell by little tiny cues that he is pissed about giving up a hit or run.  A small change in body language, a look in his eye, a little extra on the next fastball.  Most people don't recognize it, including his mother, but I see it.  The competitive fire is there.  He wants to get the next guy. 

Water off a duck's back - for sure, but underneath, there is a fire that burns and he WANTS to get the ball back and get that next out.  He believes he can get that next out.  And I agree with what piaa_ump said as well in terms of it's not always the W or L, but how he feels he competed.  He has come in after losing a game and felt good about how he pitched and he has come in after a win, even giving up no runs, and was not happy about how he pitched, knowing he could have done better.  Just some random thoughts on the topic.

At the risk of restating some of the excellent replies you've already received, here are a few the qualities that I've observed repeatedly in successful pitchers:

(1) Relishes being on the mound in any situation.

(2) Confident that he can get any batter he faces out.

(3) Feels like he's in control at all times when on the mound.

(4) Feels the fire of competition in anything he does.

(5) Ability to always focus his attention and effort on the next pitch. The preceding pitch is history.

A personal story comes to mind: Ironically, my son's last competitive inning before suffering a career-ending injury was pitched for his major league team on the day before Opening Day. Because of this, they were playing an exhibition game against the California Angels in Anaheim. Since he hadn't pitched the day before, he was the first reliever out of the pen that night.

He faced 4 batters before retiring the side, and another reliever came in to pitch the next inning.

Afterwards, one of my questions to him was, "Did the short outing leave you with any regrets?" "Yes, sir," he replied, "I didn't get a chance to face Vlad Guerrero."

All I could do was shake my head.

It takes a very confident person to succeed as a pitcher.

First of all, if this is not your player, I don't think that giving him a book about a super competitive pitcher should be your call. 

If this is your player, then give him the book.

My opinion is that some of the best pitchers in baseball, SHOW NO EMOTION.  NOTHING,NADA. 

I agree with PG, having a pitcher in my family, its more about NO FEAR.  How does one show killer instinct?

There are a few pitchers out there that tend to be a bit crazy, think Greinke they instill fear, Brian Wilson looks crazy, I believe that is why they do well.  Sometimes you will hear someone say, he has ice in his veins, that is one of the highest compliments. Does that bring  some pitchers to mind, it does for me.

I knew of a pitcher that hit batters,  on purpose, this instills fear as well.  Guys don't want to get hit with a 98-100 mph FB. 

But Bum got it right, it doesn't matter if you are competitive or instill fear, you got to have the tools, to get to that place, in the first place.

Good post piaa_ump, a pitcher definitely needs many things to be successful, its just not all that simple, especially for young HS guys.

Significantly, Brian Wilson may look crazy; but, behind the scenes, he pays attention to every minute detail in his training. Underneath the superficial, he has the reputation for being highly professional in his approach.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

The one thing I've noticed in pitchers that make it to the highest levels isn't so much "killer instinct" as it is they have "No Fear". I guess some would say that is the same thing. …

That’s definitely a much better description than “killer instinct”, although I’d modify even that just a bit as well. “No fear” boarders on acting without reason, which is akin to acting blindly and without reason. I don’t know how to say it in 2 words, but I’d describe it more as almost complete confidence that they can do their job better than the hitter does his. Maybe “Utterly confident” will do.

But whatever it is, I believe it has to do with confidence in their ability.

Originally Posted by Soylent Green:

… I think more often the coach is offering guidance more than insisting.   …

I’d be confident saying that’s how “good” coaches approach it, but as we all know, not every coach at every level is “good” or “bad”.

What troubles me is when I see pitchers who have all the necessary tools to excel, but get stuck playing for a coach who won’t allow that little bit of autonomy.

<input id="mac_address" type="hidden" value="" />

These are the kind of perspectives I hoped for.Thank you.

I didn't ask (for the few of you who have wondered) because we have ANY intention of overstepping our bounds and offering opinions to this young man or his parents. This is JP's best friend -- and his parents, who are far less informed about all of this, do come to me sometimes seeking perspective and input.

The MOST we would do is buy this pitcher a book for Christmas that might give him a different perspective -- but honestly, we probably won't ... because even THAT could be construed as judgement. Undecided.

But based on all y'all have said? I think he has a real shot at getting to the next level, which is his goal.

Bum, Jr's #2 pitcher in h.s. was a 6'4" lanky pitcher who as a junior sat 85-86.  He couldn't get any colleges interested in him until late in his senior year when he got an offer from the smallest D1 in the country, Centenary.  Not to worry, his senior year he was 87-88 and was drafted by Tampa and went pro. 

jp, sounds like the kid will be fine.  He's got time.  I know Bum Jr's friend also had a bit of a confidence problem but it was because he was so young.  Don't give him a book.  The book of life will work things out just fine.

Until I learned first hand from scouts and recruiters I never really knew that killer instinct was so important. What is killer instinct? Simply realizing the reality that baseball at the highest level is kill or be killed. The high level player has to understand fully that he is surrounded by players that will make it their mission to take his spot on the roster. My son is blessed as a sophomore pitcher with size and talent and is being recruited by D1 coaches and MLB scouts. When he was around 11 or 12 it got to the point that simple neighborhood games of football or soccer with other boys was impossible since for him, there was no middle ground. There was no "just for the fun of it" approach to competitive play and often the other kids disliked losing to him because he takes competition so seriously. At times I was ashamed of this and only saw it as a negative. At times I had to apologize to other parents for his behavior. In my heart I wanted him to change this part of his make up.  Then it all changed when a scout showed up and pointed out this killer instinct approach is something they look for and he has the make up they want to see. Talent alone is not nearly enough and average congenial players usually don't cut it. Competitive drive is the only thing that will keep him going at the next level, is the way one recruit put it. Friendship and team spirit within his teams is important to my son and has learned a lot from coaches in this area. But honestly, the people recruiting are glad to see how little he cares about other people's feelings when it comes to killer instinct. Not only do they want to see a player who wants to win, they want to see a player who absolutely hates to lose, and is willing to work harder than any other player to make sure it never happens. Some may dispute what I am saying here but I am simply speaking from personal experience and these are the facts I see regarding killer instinct, especially for a pitcher who wants to play at the next level.

A killer instinct and empathy for others are not mutually exclusive attributes.  If you are saying your son will always win (as you imply losses don't happen) your son will have a lot to learn when he reaches the higher levels.  Everyone -- and I mean everyone -- is eventually humbled by this game.

In fact, your son will learn more from losses than victories.  Those of us who have been there understand what I'm talking about.

That is as true as it gets.  It was hard for him to understand and accept at first.  As I've told him a few times, you have to fail to learn how to succeed.  

And losses will mount. 

Not to pick at dadcoach, but travel ball success at the h.s. age is so misleading as to what will happen in the future.  First of all, it's easy to say your kid "has never had an arm problem" at that age.  Second, I don't know of any serious pro scouts that go after sophomore RHP's throwing low to mid 80's.  I don't doubt his son has been talked to by a birddog or two, but until draft day I'd be mum about that.  Things do and don't happen.

Third, when reality sets in and your guy is just one of 20 other pitchers on his college squad, and you're fighting for innings, and all of a sudden they're laughing at that travel-ball splitter and sitting fastball.  You better have another quality pitch.  I happen to think it's better to work on the changeup later but you do what the coach says.  A good curve is the same as a changeup, so that's a good alternative. 

Finally, I'll say this about "Killer Instinct".  Parents of kids at the younger travel ball age were notoriously annoying.  Arguing, complaining, railing the umps.  One thing I noticed is as your kid goes higher and higher the parents and the players themselves get nicer and nicer.  Not the other way around.  Something to think about.

I didn't want to be the lone idiot to say this... my son faced several 14u pitchers this summer throwing with that velocity.  

I'm not sure what part of the country you're in, or what level of HS ball your son plays, but that velocity is not a big deal at the higher levels of travel ball.

And one more tidbit, as the better hitters see more of that, they will hit that speed with ease.  The middle of my son's team's batting order smacked around a couple of kids throwing that hard in 15u and 16u games this fall.

Daniel Bard comes to mind for being the opposite of a killer mentality type guy. He always seemed a little mentally soft to me. Don't get me wrong he had great stuff for a nice run with the Red Sox a few years ago but I feel that the reason he practically fell off the face of the baseball earth was because he was lacking mental toughness.

Unless you know Daniel Bard be careful what you say, because not sure you know what you are talking about.

 I know of plenty of VERY talented players who were not recruited from the better D1 programs because they were NOT team players.  College is all about the team and if you come thinking you are better than anyone you will not have a spot the following year.   Teams are based upon chemistry, no matter how good you are, you better help to add to that or you will be out of a job.

I understand what you are saying I was just trying to give an example and he went from one of the best relievers in baseball to now struggling to find a team to play for and it was not due to any physical injuries that I am aware of. Does a 15 year old know what he's talking about when it comes to this stuff? Not necessarily, but it does not mean I can't make an observation. You may find this to be an interesting read. http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/52030332/

You don't get to the highest level of professional ball being soft or lacking mental toughness.

Sometimes things happen, what has happened to Bard is unfortunate, and its very difficult to see it coming.

Hopefully the people that care about him will see that he gets the help needed, it is very hard to overcome what is perceived as the yips.

I am not sure that what has happened to him has anything to do with this discussion.

JMO

Sethcopp,

It takes a heck of a lot of stones and a really lopsided idea of success to say someone who made it to the ML lacked mental toughness. How was it he got as far as he did, and what does it say for all those players who never even get into a ML uniform if he made it and lacked mental toughness?