How many pitches is too many?

IMO, if a pitcher has two pitches, unless they are really exceptional, it is fairly simple for a good hitter to figure him out.

Adding a third pitch (with reasonable command of all three) starts to tilt the odds heavily in favor of the pitcher, assuming he doesn't tip any of his pitches.

Any more than that starts to take away from the ability to command any of them.

Depends on the level.

A good HS pitcher with a decent FB and curve can compete quite effectively. Make one of them a plus and they can be very very good. A plus FB with command at the HS level can dominate. College you need to add another pitch. In Perry Husband's terms a FB with 3 MPH off can be 6MPH "effective velocity" different, which is enough to get swing and misses.

Pitchers in HS should have at least 2 pitches. A pitcher with a good lively fastball only needs one other pitch to keep batters from having too much confidence.

LL - FB and curve
HS - moving FB and curve - or, zippy FB and changeup

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If you are in Little League you should have two great pitches. A fastball you can throw at four corners as well as a changeup.

I don't believe any changeups were thrown in the 2010 LLWS by US teams. Also, I don't remember anyone having success with changeups in LL in our area (I have nightmares remembering the HRs ).

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You still have to have excellent mechanics before attempting other pitches

I see this written and spoken frequently. We taught 4 pitches early to our youth pitchers. We threw their best pitch for a given pitcher on a given day. (It might vary every 2-3 weeks) Worked out OK.

We saw lots of other youth teams with slow pitchers that threw mostly curves for an inning or 2.

In Little League you need to seriously start working on mechanics to be fluid, effortless and consistent. Since you can't really do this without throwing a baseball you need to start working on the fastball and change up. I don't care if you actually throw the change in a game or not. Since it's the most similar pitch mechanically to the fastball this is what young kids need to start learning now. The curve can come later.

In high school a freshman / sophomore should really be comfortable with their mechanics. It's a non-issue and only be tweaked if need be. They should also be very good with the fastball. Hit their spots, two seam and four seam. Plus they should be able to have a changeup that is effective. At this point they should start learning how to throw a curve. Since they will probably be throwing JV games (hopefully) they can learn to throw it in games.

A high school junior / senior should be able to have great mechanics and good with three pitches.

In college this is when you start adding the fourth pitch whatever it is.

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I don't believe any changeups were thrown in the 2010 LLWS by US teams. Also, I don't remember anyone having success with changeups in LL in our area (I have nightmares remembering the HRs ).

Sultan do you think you can contribute this to the fact that typically people will teach the curve before they teach the change? Typically people think you need to learn fastball, then curve and then change - go to any Little League field and you will see this. I think if more people would teach the change then what you noticed would be different.

What do you think?

*********EDITED TO ADD**********

I'm not really a fan of the school of thought that if you teach a curve too early it will hurt the elbow. I agree that it can if the mechanics are terrible but overall it doesn't hurt the arm.

I think the fast and change need to be taught together because there is very little change with grip, arm motion and all that whereas there is a difference between fast and curve. These are little kids with little attention spans. If you are able to teach similar concepts (fast / change) then it will help maintain a consistency in their mechanics.

Daddy wants Jr to throw a s.exy curveball. They are cool and they get people out.

In our area, curves are common in LL. The parents ooh and ahh when Jr throws a curve.

We taught changeups with the same arm speed. They were hammered until they could throw a FB in the 70s. Doesn't make sense, but that's what happened.

Actually I taught my own son 10 grips starting when he was 10 yo. He couldn't throw them in a game, but he kept working on them.

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I don’t think throwing curveballs at any age is the factor that is going to lead to an injury,” said Glenn Fleisig, the chairman of research at the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham, Ala.

The jury is still out

The pitching academy,

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Just want to get everyone's opinion on how many pitches a pitcher should be able to throw in High School? Little League?

I teach 4 pitches by the time they are 12 biological years old, 2 that move to the ball arm side of home plate and 2 that move to the glove arm side of home plate, they are the tailing to the ball arm side of the plate fastball (pronated maxline fastball at -2), tailing to the glove arm side of home plate fastball (torque fastball/ pronated Cutter at -2), pronated Curve (at-20) and pronated Screwball (at –20). The pitchers use these pitches until they are 16 BYO then they add two more pitches that that move to either side of home plate the pronated Sinker (at-10) and the pronated Slider (at-10)
With these 6 pitches that are manipulated progressively through just grips and degree of Ulnar to Radial flexion of the wrists to move the balls axis presentation more forwardly plus all are pronated making them completely safe with the elbow gives us the easiest and most powerful arsenal to battle the 4 kinds of batters that exist.

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“if you want to dominate on the mound. You still have to have excellent mechanics before attempting other pitches and fastball mechanics are applied to all other pitches of course.”

I teach all 4 pitches at the same early age knowing that the many motor devices I and the parent uses makes mastering the pitches so easy for all youth pitchers by the time they are 12 BYO.
Here is one of our motor learning devices in the a You-tube Vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stVTVWTqh78

Sultanoswat,

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“I don't remember anyone having success with changeups in LL in our area (I have nightmares remembering the HRs”

We replace the traditional straight changeup with the Screwball that move laterally and down and is the safest pitch on the arm plus nasty.

Coach2709,

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I'm not really a fan of the school of thought that if you teach a curve too early it will hurt the elbow.

This naturally supinated pitch is the worse elbow destroyer there is in youth pitchers, it ballistically slams the elecronon process into the Humeral Fossa causing enlargement in the bone structures permanently deforming them by way of loss of range of motion in both directions in the elbow. This hard supination smashes cartilage slicing off pieces later to harden and become chips! It is safe to pronate though.

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I agree that it can if the mechanics are terrible but overall it doesn't hurt the arm

Hard supination also causes bicep, brachialis muscle and tendon tearing because of the eccentric contraction of the bicep and brachialis to keep this bone crashing from happening and by way eliminating the antagonist muscle the triceps (the actual elbow extender) from properly firing off making it one of the disconnections in the traditional mechanics Kinetic chain. Should I mention the tendon avulsions and complete growth plate breakage where a large chunk of the elbow comes off the epicondyle caused by this action.

The jury rested long long ago!
Will someone please explain the forearm/elbow mechanism to ASMI so they can get this right and recognize the difference between supination and pronation of this and other pitches so we can end the injurious madness that prevails in youth and up pitching. This is the most important injury prevention tenet.

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“These are little kids with little attention spans”

I witness something different, they actually learn faster if you give them everything at first than if you hold them back mold them to one side then much later try to get them to turn it the other way.
If I try to teach older kids these pitches it takes much longer and they struggle with the changes.

For what it's worth, here's my take on the change up in LL. Particularly when you are watching it on TV, but maybe all around.

If a pitcher is good, he usually has a pretty good fastball. Those guys making it to the WS and are on TV are throwing an above average FB. Batters have a hard time catching up to it. If you throw a change up, you are essentially slowing your pitch down into their bat speed. If you can keep the pitch down, it can be effective. If you leave it up, even mid- thigh high (a difference of only 6-8 inches), you are giving the batter the opportunity to hit it. With a curve, it is moving. With a change, if left up, it will be flat and in the batters bat speed range. Also, the change is more of a feel pitch. I think it is much easier to leave a change up in the zone than a curve.

I know my son struggled with this for a while. In rec ball, probably from 9-11, he had a wicked change up. He was above average with his fastball, but the change was so good, he had guys doing cork screws into the ground trying to hit it. When he hit travel at around 12, he learned a pronated curve that was almost unhittable. Coaches liked that pitch so much, it was hard for them to call the change. My son also said when he threw his change and it didn't start at the knees, it was right in the bat speed of the batters, so he didn't like it as much either. Batters were all late on the FB, change was right in the speed range where the batters could hit it.

Even now as a 17 yr. old, I have had to talk to his HS and summer team coaches to ask them to call the change more frequently. When his change is working, it's devastating. College scouts have asked if he is throwing a splitter. However, the curve/slider is so effective, coaches (in my opinion) over call it. (BTW, don't really want to get into a discussion about coaches calling pitches vs. the players).

Believe me, I talk with him ALL the time about throwing more change ups. It can be such a devastating pitch when thrown right. Problem is, because it is more of a feel pitch, you have to throw it a lot to keep the feel. If you're a hard thrower and you're throwing it to get the feel back and missing on some pitches, they will get hammered.

Anyway, that is my take on the LL CU issue.

Batters at pretty much any level will adjust to the speed of the fastball given ample time. This was the case with my son back in LL. When he was 12 he too had a dominating fastball. He also had a dominating CU. The way it works is that you throw the fastball mainly and throw in a few offspeed pitches occaisionally. This tells the batters not to try to get comfortable timing the speed of the only pitch being thrown. As batters began to time the fastball and foul them off straight back into the backstop we would then go tot eh CU. Almost always the batter would swing with confidence on the next pitch and never connect- always out in front. The CU is all about changing the timing of when the pitch arrives for the batter to hit. It really only works if you make it look like your fastball coming out of the hand and on the same starting plane as the fastball. The batter thinking it to be the fasball starts the timing and by the time he realizes it is not the fastball it is too late and their feeble adjustments to slow the bat down and hit the ball ends up making them look rather foolish.

My opinion is- if you have it- throw it.

The most important thing that kids can do is learn to throw with control. They need simple repeatable mechanics that they can relax with, cut loose and hit the spot to which they are pitching. Have a fastball (start with a 2 seamer) then let them learn the most effective pitch in baseball, a change-up. I want my pitchers to be able to throw about 7 of 10 pitches in the zone before they start trying a different one. Pitchers at the varsity level will do great with 2 pitches they can control, and can dominate if they have 3 pitches they can CONTROL. It will not matter how many great pitches they have, if they can not throw them for strikes, they are wasted and not effective. A pitcher should also be aware of what their out pitch is. If they do not have one, they need to develop the ability to hit a perfect location with their best pitch and continue to work on that out pitch.

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Originally posted by hsballcoach:
The most important thing that kids can do is learn to throw with control. They need simple repeatable mechanics that they can relax with, cut loose and hit the spot to which they are pitching. Have a fastball (start with a 2 seamer) then let them learn the most effective pitch in baseball, a change-up. I want my pitchers to be able to throw about 7 of 10 pitches in the zone before they start trying a different one. Pitchers at the varsity level will do great with 2 pitches they can control, and can dominate if they have 3 pitches they can CONTROL. It will not matter how many great pitches they have, if they can not throw them for strikes, they are wasted and not effective. A pitcher should also be aware of what their out pitch is. If they do not have one, they need to develop the ability to hit a perfect location with their best pitch and continue to work on that out pitch.

I am curious why you said to start with a two seam fastball? I have always taught kids to start throwing fastballs with a 4 seam.

I have found with young kids, holding a 2-seamer is easier since they can get both fingers on the seams. With a four seam fast ball they at times tend to grip the ball with the pads of the fingers not on a seam and it can slip on them, making them hesitant to use the proper grip. It also helps them get comfortable with a moving fastball grip that will be the most effective when pitching throughout their lives.

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Originally posted by hsballcoach:
I have found with young kids, holding a 2-seamer is easier since they can get both fingers on the seams. With a four seam fast ball they at times tend to grip the ball with the pads of the fingers not on a seam and it can slip on them, making them hesitant to use the proper grip. It also helps them get comfortable with a moving fastball grip that will be the most effective when pitching throughout their lives.

Ever since my son was about 8 years old he has thrown a 4 seam fastball and he has average size hands. His control has always been spot on. I question the real validity of a 2 seamer for movement based on some prequalifying criteria-

The first is arm slot. Arm slot plays a huge part in natural movement of a ball. From over the top to even a high 3/4 in certain cases, not much movement is going to come from a 4 seam grip. But, as that arm slot drops lower and favors a low 3/4 and even to sidearm and submarine, movement of a fastball is most pronounced with a 4 seam grip. The reason being that they can gain the most seams encountering wind resistance in it's travel. Switching to a 2 seam for 3/4 arm slot pitchers usually creates less movement or different movement and not generally more movement.

The second area to look at is how much pronation happens at release of the ball. As the hand extends to release the arm begins to pronate in most cases. As this happens the last motion of the hand creates a type of gyro spin on the ball, meaning that there is some last imprted motion by the hand to create a clockwise spin (from the pitchers view) on the ball. For every pitcher the timing of this event is quite drastic as it relates to imparting spin on a baseball. This is why some pitchers who grip the ball the same and have the same arm slot get different movements on their fastball. We have all heard of the famous "gyroball" pitch. In fact, almost every natural sinkerball pitcher (those who throw sinking fastballs naturally) impart this gyro spin on the ball at release due to early pronation of the arm. Now, depending on how one throws this pitch he will get less or more spin. Sometimes throwing it as a 2 seam will get better downward action deception while throwing it with 4 seams will get better tailing away and downward action action.

Another factor here is how far apart their two fingers are and just where they are holding the ball. Close together fingers may generate more spin and more velocity while fingers farther apart tend to impart less spin and less velocity. With a 4 seam grip this can be varried slightly without much effect. With a 2 seam grip it is more limited on how far you can place your fingers because too much movement will turn it into a breaking fastball.

The last thing that is considered is just how much spin they are imparting on the ball at release. Every pitcher is once again different. This, coupled with how fast or slow they throw will have a drastic effect on what movement is generated on the ball. Generally, balls which create the most movement from a strong release imparting spin are from a 4 seam grip except in overhand throwers.

In all cases, these factors come into play and that is why one should experiment and find what works for them. Generally speaking, I have taught that overhand pitchers should experiment with 2 seam fastballs and lower slot (3/4 or lower) should experiment with 4 seam fastballs to generate movement. In both cases, depending upon their own natural release point, pronation timing and other factors such as pressure, imparted spin, velocity, etc, changing to opposing grips may have drastically different effects on the ball over others.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The first is arm slot. Arm slot plays a huge part in natural movement of a ball. From over the top to even a high 3/4 in certain cases, not much movement is going to come from a 4 seam grip. But, as that arm slot drops lower and favors a low 3/4 and even to sidearm and submarine, movement of a fastball is most pronounced with a 4 seam grip. The reason being that they can gain the most seams encountering wind resistance in it's travel. Switching to a 2 seam for 3/4 arm slot pitchers usually creates less movement or different movement and not generally more movement.

I don't really agree with this. My son has a 3/4 arm slot. His 4 seam has tail in on a RHB (he is a RHP), but his 2 seam has about the same tail as the 4 seam, but adds sink. I would say, put together, his 2 seam has more movement.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The second area to look at is how much pronation happens at release of the ball. As the hand extends to release the arm begins to pronate in most cases. As this happens the last motion of the hand creates a type of gyro spin on the ball, meaning that there is some last imprted motion by the hand to create a clockwise spin (from the pitchers view) on the ball. For every pitcher the timing of this event is quite drastic as it relates to imparting spin on a baseball.

I pretty much agree with this. However, my son pronates both his fastballs as well as his breaking ball. His fastballs tail in and his breaking ball breaks away from a righty. I think this may have something to do with getting more horizontal spin on the fastballs. He is holding the fastballs in the center of the ball, so, coming from a lower 3/4 angle, he gets more of a horizontal spin on the ball from the ball coming off his fingertips. I think this creates the tail. With the breaking ball, he holds the ball towards the outside of the ball with the ball coming off the side of his fingers. This gives the ball more of the clockwise spin you were talking about. I believe that give the pitch more of a break away from a righty.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

The last thing that is considered is just how much spin they are imparting on the ball at release. Every pitcher is once again different. This, coupled with how fast or slow they throw will have a drastic effect on what movement is generated on the ball. Generally, balls which create the most movement from a strong release imparting spin are from a 4 seam grip except in overhand throwers.

I think this is pretty much true as well. My son can throw a more loopy breaking ball if he imparts less spin. A more late breaking, sharper breaking ball if he really pronates hard and puts more spin on the ball. The first pitch is like a big right to left curveball. The second is more like a hard slider. Both pitches held the same, just how much he puts into it a release.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

In all cases, these factors come into play and that is why one should experiment and find what works for them. Generally speaking, I have taught that overhand pitchers should experiment with 2 seam fastballs and lower slot (3/4 or lower) should experiment with 4 seam fastballs to generate movement. In both cases, depending upon their own natural release point, pronation timing and other factors such as pressure, imparted spin, velocity, etc, changing to opposing grips may have drastically different effects on the ball over others.

Experimentation is always good. Find out what works for that pitcher. Once again, I'm not sure I agree with the 4 seam over the 2 seam for 3/4 guys, but different things work for different pitchers. I think it's not just the arm angle, but could possibly even be the natural angle of the wrist at the time of the release. There are probably a lot of factors that go into it, which is why experimentation with grips is a good thing. Figure out what works best for that pitcher regardless of arm angle.

Gingerbreadman,

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“overhand pitchers should experiment with 2 seam fastballs and lower slot (3/4 or lower) should experiment with 4 seam fastballs to generate movement.”

The way you perceive movement by explaining it’s production from arm slotting is typical traditional teaching and is very limiting in the understanding by the pitcher of why a ball moves the way it does

Kids should learn that movement is produced by the axis presentation on the balls leading surface and depending on which side you put the “circle of friction” axis.
When they learn this they then understand how movement to both sides is produced by pronating the forearm on all pitches and just manipulating the wrist.
We teach the highest arm vector possible and get the greatest movement possible there is by having the kids learn Ulnar flexion and Radial flexion of the wrist that makes the ball move to either side of home plate with varying degrees of forwards axis presentation all thrown 4 seam grip to impart the most atmospheric friction.

Ulnar flexion- wrist flexed towards the outside. Little finger towards the forearm.
P.Fastball Tailing towards the ball side of home plate, P.Sinker and P.Screwball.

Radial flexion- wrist bent towards the inside.Thumb towards the forearm.
P.Fastball Tailing towards the glove side of home plate, P.Slider and P.Curveball.

The highest arm slot (vector) actually produces the most movement if you know how the mechanic works.
This is the key to why our kids can learn 4 pitches all pronated by the time they are 12 byo, then the next 2 after that. It is a much more powerful and controllable system that also allows you to perform these 6 pitches with the same exact arm vector, over the top and “inside of vertical”.