How many runs score

I'm saying 2 on both plays....as the appeal (and last out) was obviously made after the runs scored....so the first two count in both cases. 

The NFHS Case Book has several situations very similar to the ones you describe.  The ruling given is no runs for the reason you stated.

That seems strange.....the MLB rulebook has the exact situation and the runs score.  Obviously MLB and NFHS rules can be different....but I don't understand not allowing 2 runs to score....especially in the case of the home run.

I would think it's 2 runs in both cases too.  

 

BTW in the OP you mean R1, not R3.  With the bases loaded, R3 is on third, R2 on 2nd, and R1 is on first.  (standing next to F3)

NFHS R3 is on first

I don't have the rule, but I believe in the above situation, this is a time play - not a force play.  If it was a situation where the batter never reached 1st, that would be a force play in effect, but, this case involves an appeal which makes it a time play.  

 

My guess is in case one, 3 runs score and in case 2, 2 runs score.

And for those of you saying 2 runs score in both cases, what to you give the batter in case 1?  Does it turn it into a single?  Does he still get a HR?  I would think that the batter still gets the HR, but a 3 run HR and not a GS due to R1 (R3) called out on appeal.

From the NFHS Case Book:

 

8.2.2 SITUATION I: With bases loaded and two outs, the batter hits an extra base hit, scoring the runner from third. The runner from second is thrown out at home for the third out as the runner from first advanced to third, but missed second base. With time called and the teams beginning to change positions on the field, the defensive shortstop stays in fair territory. The defensive coach then verbally appeals the missed base.

RULING: This is a legal appeal. The runner who missed second base would be declared out. While this is a fourth out, it would be granted and used as a third out. Since it would be a force play, no runs would score.

That's what I read and why I said no runs score BUT was thinking about it being the fourth out! Sometimes I think to much! Being on the field is much better!

I don't think that rule applies as in the case of the OP, it's only the 3rd out.  I stand by my 2 and 2 thinking.  I don't think you can give 3 in the first case since the batter was behind the guy who made the out by missing second.

 

Could be completely wrong of course......lol

The NFHS Case Book situation has some extraneous information but the advantageous fourth out doesn't change whether runs count or not.  BTW, the OBR is the same as NFHS:

 

7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

 

Who is on first

I don't know is on third

In situation 1, I believe it is 2 runs, assuming the home run ball left the field of play and not a live ball home run situation.  If a fair hit home run leaves the park, R1 and R2 are eligible to score.  Upon appeal, R3 is out as stated.  B is credited with a single and 2 RBI.  (Reference Adcock home run to win Haddix 13 inning perfect game in 1959 when he passed R3 who was watching to see if ball left park).

 

In situation 2, I believe no runs scored as discussed previously.  

 

I might be wrong though, won't be the first time.

Wish an umpire would chime in as to whether this is a force play or a time play. I'm not sure to be honest since it's an appeal.

The Adcock play does not apply to this situation because it was not the third out and was not a force play (all runners had already advanced and touched the next base).

 

The plays in question are force plays.  A force out is when a runner or the next base is tagged before the runner reaches the next base after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.  The force was not removed because the runner never touched the next base.

 

 

No runs score.

 

The determination of if it is a force or time play hinges on what the status of the runner was at the time of infraction. 

It is a force play because the BR has not been retired and the runner had not completed their responsibilities. No runs score. The timing play you are thinking of is when the BR has been retired for the 2nd out. There can be no force out if the BR has been retired.

Just had this on our annual NFHS recertification exam - no runs score.  As some have said it is a force play since the runner never touched second.  To be a timing play, it would be an appeal on the tag up.  Example... one out, bases loaded, long fly to center.  Runners at 2nd and 3rd tag up runner on first goes half way and never retags.   Throw from center made to 3rd to get advancing runner from second.  Throw sails into dugout.  Runner from third and second score.  Appeal is made on runner not retagging 1st.  The two runs score before the appeal.

You nailed it New Umpire!!!!

I'm always open to learn something.  Thanks guys, I was wrong on this one.

Wow, I guess that's the rule....but that makes absolutely no sense.  I don't understand how you look at that play and decide that the HR doesn't at least get the first two runs on the board.  Can't imagine the thinking behind not at least allowing the first two to score. The baserunning error had absolutely no effect on whether or not the first 2 runs would have scored....as the ball is outside the fence and there is no play to be made anywhere.  I think I'll right my congressman about getting that one changed.....lol

Any runner who misses a base he is forced to, and an appeal of that missed base is upheld for the third out, will result in no runs being scored. This is elementary guys.  I'm surprised any umpire would not know this. 

Good job knowing the rules.  FYI, it is a time play (coaches call it a timing play).

Sorry to nitpick, but you sound like you are hungry to learn.

Ok, I understand that that's the rule and it is what it is.  I can see that being the case on a ball inside the park....as it's obvious if there was a force at second for the third out no runs would score.  I just don't see how it makes sense at all on a HR.  The defense can do nothing about the 4 runs that are about to score.  The guy missed second so he's out...that makes perfect sense, and also would mean the guy behind him couldn't score....but what reasoning is there to take away the first two runs???

The reasoning is simple: Do your job.

The reasoning is because, the rules apply to everyone all the time. Why on a HR especially,  would a player choose not to touch all the bases? 

4.09

HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,

second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a

play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out;

 

 

7.02

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. 

 

 

7.05

 

Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out,

 

advance—

 

(a) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and

 

he touched all bases legally;

 

Rule 7.08

(e) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been

forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

 

Rule 7.12

If such third out is the result of a force play,

neither preceding nor following runners shall score.