How much does position matter?

I think what matters more is if you have the tools to play up the middle.

If you are a 1b only or an OF with a weak arm that makes the profile LF only it is going to hurt your value as a prospect.

If you are an up the middle guy moving down the spectrum is no bog deal but if you are 1b or lf only you better really mash and hit.

Eventually you have to hit some at every position but if you are a really good defender you might play everyday if you hit just ok (say 250+) while a corner only guy has more pressure to really perform because the bat is the only value they have.

 You  see that in mlb too. If a good SS hits 260 with 10 homers in the minors he still can be a top100 prospect while a 1b prospect who hits 270 with 20 homers barely gets any consideration in prospect lists. If you hit like vlad jr it doesn't matter where you play of course.

Agree with Dominik.  I know a bunch of former HS MIFs playing 1b in college.  My son just bought a 1b mitt so he may join them. But who ever heard of a HS 1b playing SS?

SSs, CFs and catchers are primarily recruited. Corner guys are also recruited but they usually carry a big bat. Middle guys are also converted to corner guys as well. 

In my experience, HS 1B TEND to be slow guys with decent to strong bat.  Some have no real arm.  No arm and no speed is definitely not a recipe for success in college baseball.

But there are also  HS 1b with a decent to big bat who can  pitch, even though they may lack speed. They play FB on days when they are not on the bump.    

Our #1 pitcher in HS was one of the latter sort.   He was a big kid, as  slow as molasses.  But he could definitely drive the ball.     My son, who was a speedster,  could probably have run the bases twice before he finished running them once.  

Fortunately for us,  HS rules allow you to pinch run for a guy and then let him return.   He was often pulled for a pinch runner when we needed a run.  And then returned to the line up the following inning. 

He actually got a shot in college,  as a recruited walk on, at a mid-major D1.  But  neither his left hand  bat nor his left hand  pitching arm were good enough in the end and he was cut after the fall.  

Yeah interestingly quite a few mlb/milb 1b did some pitching in hs and even college.

-moreland

-chris davis

-adam dunn

-AJ reed

-brandon McKay 

I think it was 4 or 5 years ago, but I was watching an LSU game. The commentator said that of the stating 9, 6 were recruited as SS including the pitcher who couldn't hit but threw very hard. The best glove remained at SS, the rest were spread out around the IF/OF spots based on speed and glove work. 

2019s travel team carries 5. They rotate for 5 games between SS, 2B, 3B, LF, and the bench. It can get ugly at 1B sometimes watching them stretch/pick a ball, but with the exception of 1 they're all true SS who will remain there throughout college. 

Would you rather recruit a player who can only play 3B or another guy who can play 4 or 5 positions? Easy answer. 

Dominik85 posted:

Yeah interestingly quite a few mlb/milb 1b did some pitching in hs and even college.

-moreland

-chris davis

-adam dunn

-AJ reed

-brandon McKay 

McKay was a legit 2 way player in college and I think he is still a 2 way prospect in the Rays system. Although I could be wrong, haven't really followed since LVille games. 

It looks like McKay is trending pitcher ...

http://www.thebaseballcube.com...rofile.asp?ID=188106

RJM posted:

It looks like McKay is trending pitcher ...

http://www.thebaseballcube.com...rofile.asp?ID=188106

I think so. There is talk rays want to do two way thing but i think the pitching has more upside.

Versatility helps particularly for schools which don't carry the 35 player roster. Son's school is one that recruits SS, CF, C & P. Most of the first basemen hit with power and can give you innings.  A speedy CF can cover some of the deficiencies of the corners who hit. One of best hitters in program who was drafted a few years ago played third, but he too was a HS SS. It's highly likely that son may be in a starting lineup where LF, 3B, SS, and 2b all were HS SS. Son's versatility helped as some schools recruited him as CF, and others as MI.  The specific recruiting"slot" with the school he landed was for an "athletic MI who can play the outfield." He's been 2b his first two years and will be SS his last two years.

We did review rosters but thought with his speed and defense a school would find a spot for him if he hit for average. And of course the school where he would get the degree factored highly in his decision.

Great topic.  For position players it comes down to hitting.  If you can hit they'll find a spot for you.  But corner guys need to not only hit but hit with power, too

A lot of parents think their kids are Shortstops, but they are delusional most of the time when it comes to the next level in terms of being a Shortstop.  Now that my son is playing in a Travel Program that plays nationally, the difference is extremely obvious.  The middle infielders in this program, even the B team kids are flippin magicians with their glovework.  Their transfers are amazing, their footwork impeccable and they are super quick.  Not just fast in terms of 60 times but just really athletic quick twitch movements.  Not all of them will go D1 either but a few of them will...

My son played a ton of second base when he was younger, but it's really obvious he is strictly a corners guy now that he's moved up a few levels.  In terms of him continuing to play it is all about becoming a power hitter.  Lots of weight lifting & batting practice...

Position matters if you really can play up the middle.  Ultimately it comes down to being able to hit, and maximizing athleticism.

My 2020 committed as an OF this summer.  As his recruitment developed I really started paying attention to which of his peers were getting interest and who was going where.  It really opened my eyes to the fact that to get interest as an OF you really have to have an elite bat, elite speed, or preferably both.  We know a few kids who are excellent players, run "only" a 6.8 but aren't getting looks as OF.  In retrospect they probably should have tried to stick at SS/3B.

Agree, 6.8 is not a D1 Outfield prospect anymore unless you can flat out crush the Baseball.  A friend of mine has a 2021 son who he thinks is a CF prospect who runs a 7.3 60.... No, he's not.  Not yet, anyways...

I was talking about this subject with my son earlier this evening.  We know a bunch of high school Sophs & Juniors going week after week to all these different D1 camps & various showcases, running 7.8 60's, throwing the ball 80 across the infield etc... I told my son that all that those kids are doing is showing those schools over & over again that they are not D1 material.

My son played with Christian Cairo (Miguel's son) and Robert Moore (dayton's son KC royals GM) as the two middle infielders.  They made a play in Atlanta where Robert was playing second and Christian SS.  Robert back in the hole way behind 2nd base and grabbed a ball headed to CF he then pitched it to Christian who was heading to RF at the time and Christian did a 360 in the air and threw the ball to first in the air.  College players are great SS's, CF's, C's and P's.  And all the great travel teams have a SS playing 2nd and normally third now.  It was amazing to watch these two the past two summers play with each other and know that the one playing 2nd could play SS for anyone else. 

Sons HS had a kid playing 2B who was being looked at for the draft. One of the scouts asked his coach why he wasn’t playing the kid at SS, to which he replied “Because I need a second baseman. Why are you guys playing Pedroia at 2B?”

He ended up being drafted by the Yankees in the 3rd round...and playing 2B.

Echoing true shortstops post at upper levels of travel, son played on the Padres Scout team in Jupiter this past year.  The team has a relationship with an academy in Puerto Rico, so about half the roster is from PR.  Couple of my son's bigger takeaways from the experience 1)  I need to learn spanish so I know what they are saying-entire infield was PR when he pitched.  2) They all have quick, soft hands like I have never seen.

On "do positions matter", elite bats matter, regardless of position. (Other than catcher/pitcher), athleticism matters, they just happen to be mostly at SS or CF in before college.

RJM posted:

I’m curious how others feel regarding importance of position and existing players on a roster in recruiting.

I think it matters in some cases. If you know that you're a CIF/COF/DH guy, then you should have some awareness about the existing roster at your position. If the team is stacked at your position, and more are committed, then obviously every day will be a battle for PT. College seasons are relatively short. Most coaches aren't going to be patient if you go through a rough patch at the plate.

If your a middle guy and a diva, you might not be happy at a school that's going to move you to a corner. Know thyself.

Son was a SS, but moved to the OF. He can hit and is a good run scorer, but the reason he plays is because of his glove, range, IQ, and arm can cover up for the play of lesser fielders. He still takes ground balls during practice, and is one injury/event away from SS. I've noticed that some MIF's don't take the move to OF very well, and never quite get the hang of it.

  I don't agree that a 6.8 OF is not good enough to play D1. P5, maybe, but there are a hell of a lot of D1's out there. Also, a lot of kids are training to get fast 60 times, while others just run it a few times when asked. Give me the latter anyday.

  I've seen players who have fairly fast 60 times, but don't play fast, either on the bases or in the field, and others who's 60's are the same, but have great instincts and quick twitches, making for a fast player.

Stats can sometimes lie.

57special posted:

Son was a SS, but moved to the OF. He can hit and is a good run scorer, but the reason he plays is because of his glove, range, IQ, and arm can cover up for the play of lesser fielders. He still takes ground balls during practice, and is one injury/event away from SS. I've noticed that some MIF's don't take the move to OF very well, and never quite get the hang of it.

  I don't agree that a 6.8 OF is not good enough to play D1. P5, maybe, but there are a hell of a lot of D1's out there. Also, a lot of kids are training to get fast 60 times, while others just run it a few times when asked. Give me the latter anyday.

  I've seen players who have fairly fast 60 times, but don't play fast, either on the bases or in the field, and others who's 60's are the same, but have great instincts and quick twitches, making for a fast player.

Stats can sometimes lie.

Agree.  60 times don't tell you about jumps, reads, or route efficiency which can make up to a degree for slightly lesser speed, especially if there is also a canon for an arm.  

SluggerDad posted:

57special posted:

Son was a SS, but moved to the OF. He can hit and is a good run scorer, but the reason he plays is because of his glove, range, IQ, and arm can cover up for the play of lesser fielders. He still takes ground balls during practice, and is one injury/event away from SS. I've noticed that some MIF's don't take the move to OF very well, and never quite get the hang of it.

  I don't agree that a 6.8 OF is not good enough to play D1. P5, maybe, but there are a hell of a lot of D1's out there. Also, a lot of kids are training to get fast 60 times, while others just run it a few times when asked. Give me the latter anyday.

  I've seen players who have fairly fast 60 times, but don't play fast, either on the bases or in the field, and others who's 60's are the same, but have great instincts and quick twitches, making for a fast player.

Stats can sometimes lie.

Agree.  60 times don't tell you about jumps, reads, or route efficiency which can make up to a degree for slightly lesser speed, especially if there is also a canon for an arm.  

Yeah, and some fast guys just aren't very good fielders or base runners. Can run a great 60, though.

6.8 will no longer be considered a great time for D1 outfield unless a prospect is a truly great hitter.   I stand by that.

3and2Fastball posted:

6.8 will no longer be considered a great time for D1 outfield unless a prospect is a truly great hitter.   I stand by that.

There is a big difference between saying that 6.8 is not a "great time", and that saying that "6.8 is not a D1 prospect anymore", which you stated a few posts above.

6.8 is plenty fast, and won't disqualify  for any D1 program, let alone a mid/low tier program, of which there are many. It goes w/o saying that you have to be able to play baseball, also. I don't think that it makes a difference if you are a 6.5-6.6 if you can't play. There might be room a large D1 roster for a couple of "speed projects", but that's about it.

3and2Fastball posted:

6.8 will no longer be considered a great time for D1 outfield unless a prospect is a truly great hitter.   I stand by that.

6.8 may not be ELITE.  But it's still plenty  fast and I would guess  not on its own disqualifying.   But that's admittedly just a guess. 

MLB average for a 60 yard dash is about 6.9-7.0 (see https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sc...0-80-scouting-scale/). 

2019Dad posted:

MLB average for a 60 yard dash is about 6.9-7.0 (see https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sc...0-80-scouting-scale/). 

That's because they can hit MLB pitching!

2019Dad posted:

MLB average for a 60 yard dash is about 6.9-7.0 (see https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sc...0-80-scouting-scale/). 

That average looks to include all positions.  I would think that the average by position is a bit different, and probably comes into play in player evaluation.

K9 posted:

2019Dad posted:

MLB average for a 60 yard dash is about 6.9-7.0 (see https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sc...0-80-scouting-scale/). 

That average looks to include all positions.  I would think that the average by position is a bit different, and probably comes into play in player evaluation.

I will add that the chart is just used to rate players (plus not all scouts/teams use the exact same scale). That doesn't mean that all MLB players have been timed in the 60 and the average turned out to be 6.9. It's quite possible that a majority of all current MLB players would rate "Plus" or better on 60 right now. And as K9 inferred, most MLB outfielders would rate at least Above Average.

Sure, agreed, but I'm skeptical that the 2,000 outfielders on D1 rosters all have average to above-average major-league speed.

Here are the numbers for the outfielders at the 2017 PG National Showcase.

How many run sub 6.8 at 200 lbs? Not many MLB players under 200.

2019OF posted:

How many run sub 6.8 at 200 lbs? Not many MLB players under 200.

Most D1 college prospects don’t weigh 200 when they’re high school sophs or juniors. This is when they’re being timed by PG and other organizations.

In 2016 the average MLBer was 6’2” 191. Keep in mind the average is skewed relative to position players by pitchers typically being larger.

I was going to post this earlier today but didn’t.

I’m pretty sure that Mookie and Beni are faster but Jackie is the best CF of the three.  Speed matters but there are other intangibles to playing defense.

https://www.perfectgame.org/pl...rofile.aspx?ID=68354

Are those 60 times like pop times where every hs C prospect has a faster pop time than buster posey?

Are those hand timed or electronically timed?

Can the defense player "read the bat"!!!

Bob

hshuler posted:

I was going to post this earlier today but didn’t.

I’m pretty sure that Mookie and Beni are faster but Jackie is the best CF of the three.  Speed matters but there are other intangibles to playing defense.

https://www.perfectgame.org/pl...rofile.aspx?ID=68354

Betts is in right because it’s harder to play than center in Fenway. I believe if Bradley were to be traded Benintendi would be moved to center even though Betts would be a better center fielder.

But Bradley has a unique tracking skill most outfielders don’t have. On long hits he takes his eyes off the ball, hits full sprint, runs to the right spot and can accurately gauge when to look up again and find the ball. 

RJM posted:

hshuler posted:

I was going to post this earlier today but didn’t.

I’m pretty sure that Mookie and Beni are faster but Jackie is the best CF of the three.  Speed matters but there are other intangibles to playing defense.

https://www.perfectgame.org/pl...rofile.aspx?ID=68354

Betts is in right because it’s harder to play than center in Fenway. I believe if Bradley were to be traded Benintendi would be moved to center even though Betts would be a better center fielder.

But Bradley has a unique tracking skill most outfielders don’t have. On long hits he takes his eyes off the ball, hits full sprint, runs to the right spot and can accurately gauge when to look up again and find the ball. 

Also Betts has the best arm of the 3, another argument for him in right.  

Btw benintendi, betts and jbj all almost have the same sprint speed on statcast (betts is a couple tenths faster). Jbj is well below average in sprint speed for a cf though.

Reads and good routes can compensate some but it can only do so much if you are too slow.

This is especially true at higher levels. In hs the guy with a sure glove and good reads might play cf but at higher levels everyone has those traits so you can't compensate as much.

My son's recruiting class had 6 his freshman year.  4 HS shortstops (son was SS and P in HS) and and two OF.  They are seniors this spring.  Of those 4 shortstops, 1 is likely to be the everyday RF this year, 1 has played some 3B the past couple years and will now starting at 1B, the other at 2B and my son pitching/DH.  The two outfielders are both gone...neither saw much time their freshman year and both left for smaller schools.  At one point last season, we had 3 upperclassmen catcher on the roster.  One was the everyday catcher, one was our everyday RF and the other was a part time DH.  The kid behind the plate was easily the best catcher of the 3....but the other two could hit so they found their way into the lineup.  

The high school player with great reads & great jumps who runs a 6.8 will not get recruited over a high school player with average reads & jumps who runs a 6.5 unless he has a significantly better bat.

This conversation reminds of the pitching convos where the 88 mph pitcher is said to have great movement and great offspeed pitches and thinks he should be D1

The bat is the separator.  Without that ingredient, you better flat out fly