Interesting discussion regarding improvements in speed.......now let's use my son as an example......
HS junior year, December, 60 yards in 7.8 seconds;
Summer after junior year, 7.5 seconds;
December of senior year, 7.2 seconds;
September of college freshman year, 7.0 seconds;
September of college sophomore year, 6.9 seconds.
Was there any speed training?
When private speed coaches and/or private pitching coaches tell HS kids that their lessons will improve their speed/velocity, is the improvement a result of the training? Or is it a result of normal growth and muscle development/daily participation in sports?
I do think lessons help, but I can't help but wonder about all these Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, etc., kids that do not have the money or access to professional hitting/pitching lessons and how they just play the games they play growing up. There is such a large number of these players now playing at all levels of professional ball, I can't help but think that natural ability and practicing on your own (see Fungo's post above) are the lion's share of the equation.
Just my two pennies worth...
Just my two pennies worth...
Dan O'Brien of Olymic Gold Medal fame believes in speed training and has produced great results. My second son, who has decided to pursue football in college rather than baseball, is attempting to walk on at ASU. His work with O'Brien and a few others have substantially increased his flexibility and thus his speed and have helped him create a legitimate opportunity to become a part of the program.
I don't have times, but it is very clear that he is faster than before and at a greater weight. In addition to the flexibility, the technique also is important, but there is not doubt that he is moving his legs faster and with longer strides, thus producing impressive results.
A really fast guy probably does not "need" this, but it sure would not hurt. Anyone slightly above average and slower can benefit greatly and the results can be lasting if work continues.
Money extraordinarily well spent.
I don't have times, but it is very clear that he is faster than before and at a greater weight. In addition to the flexibility, the technique also is important, but there is not doubt that he is moving his legs faster and with longer strides, thus producing impressive results.
A really fast guy probably does not "need" this, but it sure would not hurt. Anyone slightly above average and slower can benefit greatly and the results can be lasting if work continues.
Money extraordinarily well spent.
Missouri-BB-Dad,
O44 probabaly said it better than I can. I was typing and didn't realize he had responded with such a great answer.
I started talking to my son just prior to him entering high school. The primary reason I did this was because I knew his perspective was about to change. He had never been subjected to being an “also ran” on a baseball team and high school was going to challenge him. I wanted him to understand that success doesn’t happen suddenly and the end result would ultimately depend on his attitude and his work ethic. I was trying to get the point across that if he wanted to chase his dream he had to stay the course. How long did it take? I don’t think it ever ends. I think it continues to this day. Like they say.....Success is never final, and failure is never fatal.
Fungo
O44 probabaly said it better than I can. I was typing and didn't realize he had responded with such a great answer.
I started talking to my son just prior to him entering high school. The primary reason I did this was because I knew his perspective was about to change. He had never been subjected to being an “also ran” on a baseball team and high school was going to challenge him. I wanted him to understand that success doesn’t happen suddenly and the end result would ultimately depend on his attitude and his work ethic. I was trying to get the point across that if he wanted to chase his dream he had to stay the course. How long did it take? I don’t think it ever ends. I think it continues to this day. Like they say.....Success is never final, and failure is never fatal.
Fungo
.
Fungo...
I am not worthy...
...thanks...I appreciate the comment coming from such distinguished source...Thanks...
--
TBird brings up another key point...for those of us who teach there are actually a couple kinds of development recognized and utilized in international sports at the moment...
The Technical-rational-western thought approach..which is heavily based upon the eastern european 70's Olympic Model of science and lesson...
And then there is the Games approach...the one used in the Dominican I believe. For Example Spain produces and inordinate and amazing amount of world class tennis players by simply giving kids tennis balls and sending out to a court to play rather than be taught...
Do we play enough?
Fungo...
I am not worthy...
...thanks...I appreciate the comment coming from such distinguished source...Thanks...--
TBird brings up another key point...for those of us who teach there are actually a couple kinds of development recognized and utilized in international sports at the moment...
The Technical-rational-western thought approach..which is heavily based upon the eastern european 70's Olympic Model of science and lesson...
And then there is the Games approach...the one used in the Dominican I believe. For Example Spain produces and inordinate and amazing amount of world class tennis players by simply giving kids tennis balls and sending out to a court to play rather than be taught...
Do we play enough?
IMO - They dont need to be mutually exclusive.
You get some training and instruction - you play alot - and hopefully you have fun and improve.
Either way - desire and passion trumps all.
At whatever level or whatever sport you play. IMO
You get some training and instruction - you play alot - and hopefully you have fun and improve.
Either way - desire and passion trumps all.
At whatever level or whatever sport you play. IMO
I've said on other threads that I believe in speed training. From the perspective of a summer coach, I think it is important to improve every single player on the team regardless of their initial speed. If I can help make the 8.0 pitcher or catcher into a 7.7 or 7.8 runner and the 7.0 position player into a 6.8 guy, we're a better team top to bottom.
More importantly, we've just made each of these players a bit more attractive to college coaches.
BBScout said something in another thread to the effect that 60 times don't mean all that much across much of the spectrum, except at the far slow and fast ends. I agree with that premise, but part of my job is to get that slow guy into the range where it isn't a factor, and to get that fast guy into a range where it does matter. When added to all the other things that are evaluated, it just might help get a kid where he wants to go when he's done with us.
More importantly, we've just made each of these players a bit more attractive to college coaches.
BBScout said something in another thread to the effect that 60 times don't mean all that much across much of the spectrum, except at the far slow and fast ends. I agree with that premise, but part of my job is to get that slow guy into the range where it isn't a factor, and to get that fast guy into a range where it does matter. When added to all the other things that are evaluated, it just might help get a kid where he wants to go when he's done with us.
quote:Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
When added to all the other things that are evaluated, it just might help get a kid where he wants to go when he's done with us.
The only place my kid wants to go is to the next base - as soon as possible.
OB44,
I am not the great Fungo, but I gave you credit in my post as well!
I am not the great Fungo, but I gave you credit in my post as well!
I've seen some proof of speed trainng work and I am convinced that it can enhance a runners speed to a degree. My son was a short chubby frosh in high school who ran an 8.3. He began to grow and slim out during soph yr. when we implemented the bigger-faster-stronger program. Before the program he was at 8.1. I figured he would never be doing much running. After his soph season we clocked him at 7.7. We continued into his jr yr and he was at 7.5 and snr yr at 7.4. He worked tirelessy at this and it worked. How do I know if wasn't just growth. We used this program in the off season. One of his teammates wasn't interested in comng to the workouts. As a soph he was clocked at 7.6 and as a snr he was at the same 7.4 as my son and he had grown 5 inches and filled out athletically. I believe it can help. As for latin american players, many do get quality instruction. Because of the poverty in many of those countries, MLB and many former players go there to promote and teach the game. Many very good instructors live in these places and many teach for free. Its a much different situation than here. One of my friends from D.R. has told me its like the old days here when a doctor would come to your house and his payment might just be dinner. As for speed training, there are lots of factors involved, will the kid work at it, will he grow more and become stronger and of course genetics.
I have been reading this thread with interest. It almost leads a parent to believe that if they can't afford private lessons their son will not excel.
I have no doubt that private lessons can be very useful, however a few points made by others should be carefully considered before taking out that second mortgage.
One was made by T-Bird Dad. Kids can and do learn how to be great ball players without lessons. That does not by any means imply that I feel this is the best route to take. Only that it can be done.
Keep in mind that kids who do this play a LOT. They also have a passion for the game that the average player simply does not have.
Dad 10 also mentioned one great way to save money and that is to blend the two.
Does a player HAVE to see a hitting coach on a weekly basis? I would have to venture that if he does then he has some REAL problems with his swing. For most kids the majority of that time is spent on repetition.
Now, don't get me wrong - repitition is CRUCIAL. It is only through repition that you can get the muscle memory thing down pat, and only through repitition that you can keep everything in order. But those repititions do not have to be on the clock.
If you as a parent simply cannot afford routine lessons - go to the lessons yourself and learn what to watch for.
Let them learn the HOW TO DO IT from a qualified instructor. Make sure they have it figured out (and you too) and then go home and practise.
Sure, it's a good idea to go back to the instructor once in awhile to make sure you have maintained what you learned. How often depends on the situation. How well has he maintained his progress, does he slide into bad habits - that kind of thing.
It isn't HOW MANY lessons you take - it is how much you RETAIN from those lessons.
I have no doubt that private lessons can be very useful, however a few points made by others should be carefully considered before taking out that second mortgage.
One was made by T-Bird Dad. Kids can and do learn how to be great ball players without lessons. That does not by any means imply that I feel this is the best route to take. Only that it can be done.
Keep in mind that kids who do this play a LOT. They also have a passion for the game that the average player simply does not have.
Dad 10 also mentioned one great way to save money and that is to blend the two.
Does a player HAVE to see a hitting coach on a weekly basis? I would have to venture that if he does then he has some REAL problems with his swing. For most kids the majority of that time is spent on repetition.
Now, don't get me wrong - repitition is CRUCIAL. It is only through repition that you can get the muscle memory thing down pat, and only through repitition that you can keep everything in order. But those repititions do not have to be on the clock.
If you as a parent simply cannot afford routine lessons - go to the lessons yourself and learn what to watch for.
Let them learn the HOW TO DO IT from a qualified instructor. Make sure they have it figured out (and you too) and then go home and practise.
Sure, it's a good idea to go back to the instructor once in awhile to make sure you have maintained what you learned. How often depends on the situation. How well has he maintained his progress, does he slide into bad habits - that kind of thing.
It isn't HOW MANY lessons you take - it is how much you RETAIN from those lessons.
It is obvious that everyone's input in this thread has great validity. I cannot disagree with just about everything that has been offered so I will offer a couple of further inputs:
Speed training- my son was in the boat with the rest of those boys whose parents did not see any sense in paying & hoping for miracles...slow.
Fortunately he was born left-handed and took to throwing things. A professional coach once told me(when I asked him if my son's lack of foot speed would hurt his chances of playing professionally)..."How fast do you have to be to get from the dugout to the pitcher's mound?" Eventually, working with a personal trainer helped some, but that was just a by-product of general overall, greater strength.
One of my son's "mottos" since his junior high days is "Hard work will beat talent if talent does not work hard." He still abides by that adage.
One of MY favorite replies when folks would ask "...is it worth it to pay for private lessons"?...... The money is better spent on a baseball coach during your son's developmental years than it will be spent if you have to use it on lawyer fees when your son is in high school.(meaning all of the "positive" guidance is an added by-product of baseball lessons). Of course, if "Little Johnny" is really a natural-born screw-up, putting a little $ aside for the lawyer may be a good idea.
OPP
Speed training- my son was in the boat with the rest of those boys whose parents did not see any sense in paying & hoping for miracles...slow.
Fortunately he was born left-handed and took to throwing things. A professional coach once told me(when I asked him if my son's lack of foot speed would hurt his chances of playing professionally)..."How fast do you have to be to get from the dugout to the pitcher's mound?" Eventually, working with a personal trainer helped some, but that was just a by-product of general overall, greater strength.
One of my son's "mottos" since his junior high days is "Hard work will beat talent if talent does not work hard." He still abides by that adage.
One of MY favorite replies when folks would ask "...is it worth it to pay for private lessons"?...... The money is better spent on a baseball coach during your son's developmental years than it will be spent if you have to use it on lawyer fees when your son is in high school.(meaning all of the "positive" guidance is an added by-product of baseball lessons). Of course, if "Little Johnny" is really a natural-born screw-up, putting a little $ aside for the lawyer may be a good idea.
OPP
A Parent,
Nice post. If I were a new parent reading this and other threads on the HSBBW, I might get the impression my son wouldn't succeed without lessons, showcases, elite little league, playing with expensive summer travel teams.
As OPP says, there is validity in every post. But what is important to one may not be important to others. In the end, it is important that whatever route is taken is taken for the right reasons, not to keep up with the Joneses (isn't that what JBB was getting at in his post). How much is too much, only you can decide. If it's in your budget to give son "lessons for life", that's ok, if he needs a few lessons for tweaking, that's ok too.
I have seen some kids take lessons all of their lives and not gotten very far, and I have seen some who have never had a lesson and gotten further. I have seen many parents dismayed because they spent money, lots of it, and son didn't become a better hitter or pitcher and I have seen some parents thrilled because it payed off.
We didn't believe in the lessons, but didn't think twice about spending 2500 for son to play in a summer league. We considered that more important, everyone must set priorities and not be afraid to look back and question if what they did or didn't do was right or wrong.
Nice post. If I were a new parent reading this and other threads on the HSBBW, I might get the impression my son wouldn't succeed without lessons, showcases, elite little league, playing with expensive summer travel teams.
As OPP says, there is validity in every post. But what is important to one may not be important to others. In the end, it is important that whatever route is taken is taken for the right reasons, not to keep up with the Joneses (isn't that what JBB was getting at in his post). How much is too much, only you can decide. If it's in your budget to give son "lessons for life", that's ok, if he needs a few lessons for tweaking, that's ok too.
I have seen some kids take lessons all of their lives and not gotten very far, and I have seen some who have never had a lesson and gotten further. I have seen many parents dismayed because they spent money, lots of it, and son didn't become a better hitter or pitcher and I have seen some parents thrilled because it payed off.
We didn't believe in the lessons, but didn't think twice about spending 2500 for son to play in a summer league. We considered that more important, everyone must set priorities and not be afraid to look back and question if what they did or didn't do was right or wrong.
.
TPM...
A million apologies for not making mention of your appreciation of the concept of "reading" your player, was rushing to get to the Karma thread!...sorry
...you and I are definately on the same page in this respect...no one stop shopping.......
Well said..
AParent...
I agree, but not just this thread but the whole way that youth baseball is headed...IMO that was what JB was highlighting...
In response...For the record, I'll repost something I said in an earlier post...
Hope that helps balance the viewpoint...
TPM...
A million apologies for not making mention of your appreciation of the concept of "reading" your player, was rushing to get to the Karma thread!...sorry
...you and I are definately on the same page in this respect...no one stop shopping.......quote:In the end, it is important that whatever route is taken is taken for the right reasons, not to keep up with the Joneses (isn't that what JBB was getting at in his post). How much is too much, only you can decide. If it's in your budget to give son "lessons for life", that's ok, if he needs a few lessons for tweaking, that's ok too.
I have seen some kids take lessons all of their lives and not gotten very far, and I have seen some who have never had a lesson and gotten further. I have seen many parents dismayed because they spent money, lots of it, and son didn't become a better hitter or pitcher and I have seen some parents thrilled because it payed off.
Well said..
AParent...
quote:It almost leads a parent to believe that if they can't afford private lessons their son will not excel.
I agree, but not just this thread but the whole way that youth baseball is headed...IMO that was what JB was highlighting...
In response...For the record, I'll repost something I said in an earlier post...
quote:Lessons DO NOT have to be expensive. A good instructor can give you the basics in a lesson or two and then it is up to the player and his work ethic to impliment that idea. On the other hand...In my experience, and I teach athletic mechanics and coach teams for a full time living, families waste way too much money paying me to be a ball machine not an instructor. Get my knowledge, impliment it yourself then come back for a tune up. You can save a bundle.
Hope that helps balance the viewpoint...
TPM - Nice post.
quote:Originally posted by observer44:
AParent...quote:It almost leads a parent to believe that if they can't afford private lessons their son will not excel.
I agree, but not just this thread but the whole way that youth baseball is headed...IMO that was what JB was highlighting...
In response...For the record, I'll repost something I said in an earlier post...quote:Lessons DO NOT have to be expensive. A good instructor can give you the basics in a lesson or two and then it is up to the player and his work ethic to impliment that idea. On the other hand...In my experience, and I teach athletic mechanics and coach teams for a full time living, families waste way too much money paying me to be a ball machine not an instructor. Get my knowledge, impliment it yourself then come back for a tune up. You can save a bundle.
Hope that helps balance the viewpoint...
Observer,
Agree 100% and it seems to be accelerating.
What is most interesting to me - is the success at which the marketers of these services have tapped into the parents needs and desires.
The financial rewards are relatively minimal. Yet - that "carrot" has seemed to take on a very shiny luster.
It really could be a case study for how to successfully create and expand a market.
So many parents in my area spend thousands of $$ on SAT preparation, tutors, etc... to be competitive in the admissions process for college.
I certainly agree that academics are more important than baseball...but isn't the mindset on these expenditures similar in nature psychologically?
Piano lessons, pitching lessons, tennis lessons (
), SAT lessons...I wonder if its all feeding the same part of the parents' brain?
I certainly agree that academics are more important than baseball...but isn't the mindset on these expenditures similar in nature psychologically?
Piano lessons, pitching lessons, tennis lessons (
), SAT lessons...I wonder if its all feeding the same part of the parents' brain?
justbaseball,
I wish I knew the answer - but whatever it is - it has struck a chord in our generation of parents.
I think what is equally as interesting in the athletic area - is how in many parts of the country - the less expensive alternatives are being run into the ground.
I think this is especially true for baseball and it makes no sense financially for most parents.
So they must be appealing to something else in the parents mind IMO.
Interesting stuff IMO.
I wish I knew the answer - but whatever it is - it has struck a chord in our generation of parents.
I think what is equally as interesting in the athletic area - is how in many parts of the country - the less expensive alternatives are being run into the ground.
I think this is especially true for baseball and it makes no sense financially for most parents.
So they must be appealing to something else in the parents mind IMO.
Interesting stuff IMO.
I get no greater joy than seeing one of my students improving at the game he loves and dreams of playing for many years. For what I charge and the many favors and frebees I do, I feel I am doing a service to the youth in my community. I DO NOT THINK ALL KIDS NEED INSTRUCTION. It, like many things, is personal. Playing Time, followed by conditionng will be all some will need. Many others prefer to learn from an instructor.
.
While I support a parents choice to spend money anyway that they wish...
I believe that this is a very, very slippery slope...
what might start with the best intentions has a way of accelerating quickly into a serious competition among "got everything else" baby-boomer parents for top billing...
...rather than an activity for for the benefit and enjoyment of kids...
While I support a parents choice to spend money anyway that they wish...
I believe that this is a very, very slippery slope...
what might start with the best intentions has a way of accelerating quickly into a serious competition among "got everything else" baby-boomer parents for top billing...
...rather than an activity for for the benefit and enjoyment of kids...
Observer,
Most I have seen the last 7 years or so are already skiing down that slope - at a high rate of speed.
Most I have seen the last 7 years or so are already skiing down that slope - at a high rate of speed.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
So many parents in my area spend thousands of $$ on SAT preparation, tutors, etc... to be competitive in the admissions process for college.
I certainly agree that academics are more important than baseball...but isn't the mindset on these expenditures similar in nature psychologically?
Piano lessons, pitching lessons, tennis lessons (
JBB,
You threw me a curve.
When son wanted to learn how to play golf, did we give lessons, yes. A few, he didn't have a clue. Did we spend lots of money on dance lessons for daughter, yes and the recitals, yes. Did we have to, no. Did it pay off, no. Are we sorry, no.Did we spend a small fortune joining baseball teams, new uniforms, equipment, gloves, bats, cleats and more cleats, travel, yes, did it pay off, yes. Did we give lessons, no. Did he need it, no.Would lessons have made a difference, probably not. But that was our choice, we didn't feel we HAD to because it was the fashionable thing to do.
These two boomer parents just felt the more you played, the more you learned, the better you got. Baseball is just one of those sports that takes a LOOOONNNGGG time to develop. And you can't get where you want to without practice, practice, practice. If he wanted to be a golfer and needed lessons would we have done it, yes. Did we discourage him because it was expensive, yes. Did we encourage him to get out there on his own and play to get better, yes.
There's nothing wrong with lessons, but lessons will not make someone better if they don't practice. I see too many parents of today thinking lessons will make you better, only because the folks next door are doing it. Lessons without practice means nothing.
Parents would never think of son arriving late for lessons, but have seen too many parents bring their sons late to practice. To me, this is an indication of their priorities and I don't agree. Give johnny lessons he'll get a scholarship. No way is that true. JMO.
Let me put another slant on this. 20, 30, 40+ years ago kids actually played outside when they were young. Remember those days parents? They even were able to get 10 or 20 kids from the neighborhood and put a sandlot baseball or football game together. This is how kids developed their skills on their own. Today it never seems to happen, at least not in our neck of the woods. Oh yes, maybe a small group of kids get together and play basketball but even that is rare.
I think everyone knows why this is. Kids now have computers, Madden06, Halo2 and a thousand other games I couldn't begin to name not to mention 300 TV and sports stations. It's darn near impossible to get kids out of the house and in a lot of areas parents are scared to let their kids go more than a block or two from home.
Times have definately changed. What do we do as parents to try and help our kids grow socially and athletically? Put them in a structured atmosphere whether it be boy scouts, pitching lessons, hitting lessons, swimming, camps, etc. etc.
Most kids, but certainly not all kids, need help these days to develop skills for any sport because they just haven't developed them on their own. There is a positive to this though. With all the youth instruction going on, coaches don't have as many bad habits to break that kids might otherwise have learned on the sandlot. Don't jump on the keyboard just yet coaches. I realize there are still a lot of bad habits that show up at high school but at least for those kids that have had instruction it's not quite as bad as it might otherwise have been.
Yes, lessons are costly. Yes, skills can be learned in less expensive ways than lessons. The point is, kids these days need a little more structured system to develop to their full potential. The net result of all this professional or otherwise instruction, we're creating super athletes. Just look at the progression of athletes in all sports over the decades.
I'm sure steroids will pop up in the replies. Let's not go down that road here.
I think everyone knows why this is. Kids now have computers, Madden06, Halo2 and a thousand other games I couldn't begin to name not to mention 300 TV and sports stations. It's darn near impossible to get kids out of the house and in a lot of areas parents are scared to let their kids go more than a block or two from home.
Times have definately changed. What do we do as parents to try and help our kids grow socially and athletically? Put them in a structured atmosphere whether it be boy scouts, pitching lessons, hitting lessons, swimming, camps, etc. etc.
Most kids, but certainly not all kids, need help these days to develop skills for any sport because they just haven't developed them on their own. There is a positive to this though. With all the youth instruction going on, coaches don't have as many bad habits to break that kids might otherwise have learned on the sandlot. Don't jump on the keyboard just yet coaches. I realize there are still a lot of bad habits that show up at high school but at least for those kids that have had instruction it's not quite as bad as it might otherwise have been.
Yes, lessons are costly. Yes, skills can be learned in less expensive ways than lessons. The point is, kids these days need a little more structured system to develop to their full potential. The net result of all this professional or otherwise instruction, we're creating super athletes. Just look at the progression of athletes in all sports over the decades.
I'm sure steroids will pop up in the replies. Let's not go down that road here.
Alot of people dont have those choices.
They simply cannot afford it.
This is especially true in baseball - and I see the trend accelerating.
I think JBB's point is well taken - as are others.
It is fascinating to me to watch this mini-industry grow up and develop so quickly - but it is also sad to see so many potential athletes left out.
IMO.
They simply cannot afford it.
This is especially true in baseball - and I see the trend accelerating.
I think JBB's point is well taken - as are others.
It is fascinating to me to watch this mini-industry grow up and develop so quickly - but it is also sad to see so many potential athletes left out.
IMO.
.
Coachric..
Agreed....
I too teach a sport...I too give many freebies to my community...I too feel as if I am doing a community service and I love to teach and bring the joys and lessons of sport to kids...
I also have seen kids become products and it saddens me....
Coachric..
Agreed....
I too teach a sport...I too give many freebies to my community...I too feel as if I am doing a community service and I love to teach and bring the joys and lessons of sport to kids...
I also have seen kids become products and it saddens me....
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
JBB,
You threw me a curve.
Was it a strike or a HBP?
quote:Originally posted by observer44:
I also have seen kids become products and it saddens me....
Me too.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
JBB,
You threw me a curve.
Was it a strike or a HBP?
Strike, but I adjusted and hit one right back at ya!
TPM...
Exactamundo. Kids need internal passion, not external...
Itsinthegame
Yes. IMO there is a real danger of elitist status for baseball ala tennis, gymnastics, golf... JB, I and others have talked about this a great deal on the NorCalPreps site. It is my contention that when baseball becomes elitist, when the local local programs lose their broad based community appeal, baseball will change... and not for the better.
44
quote:...but lessons will not make someone better if they don't practice. I see too many parents of today thinking lessons will make you better, only because teh folks next door are doing it.
Exactamundo.
Kids need internal passion, not external...Itsinthegame
quote:
Alot of people dont have those choices.
They simply cannot afford it.
This is especially true in baseball - and I see the trend accelerating.
AND....
Most I have seen the last 7 years or so are already skiing down that slope - at a high rate of speed.
Yes. IMO there is a real danger of elitist status for baseball ala tennis, gymnastics, golf... JB, I and others have talked about this a great deal on the NorCalPreps site. It is my contention that when baseball becomes elitist, when the local local programs lose their broad based community appeal, baseball will change... and not for the better.
44
Observer,
I think we are just beginning to see the seeds sprout. I also am concerned for the youth game - and especially for those who come from families of modest means - or worse.
It - IMO - is now undeniable - that baseball is hurtling towards an elitist model - and I agree that it will harm the American player greatly. In fact - I think it already has.
I also think that given the success of this new "mini-industry" there is no turning back anytime soon.
Just observing. IMO.
I think we are just beginning to see the seeds sprout. I also am concerned for the youth game - and especially for those who come from families of modest means - or worse.
It - IMO - is now undeniable - that baseball is hurtling towards an elitist model - and I agree that it will harm the American player greatly. In fact - I think it already has.
I also think that given the success of this new "mini-industry" there is no turning back anytime soon.
Just observing. IMO.
Maybe I got a bit carried away because baseball is a TEAM sport. Individualized sports DO need more attention one on one. Lessons are a must in some sports.
Its,
Baseball has already turned away kids in the inner city, which a team sport should never do. Soon baseball will be on the same page with tennis, golf, gymnastics. Middle income families with lots of kids will not be able to participate. Once rec ball disapppears and gives into the elite travel teams, it's a gonner.
Its,
Baseball has already turned away kids in the inner city, which a team sport should never do. Soon baseball will be on the same page with tennis, golf, gymnastics. Middle income families with lots of kids will not be able to participate. Once rec ball disapppears and gives into the elite travel teams, it's a gonner.
TPM,
From my perspective - being born, raised and educated in the Bronx,NY - I would agree with your assessment of the inner city phenomenon.
From my perspective - being born, raised and educated in the Bronx,NY - I would agree with your assessment of the inner city phenomenon.
.
Itsinthegame...TPM...
IMO, exactly...
But it may be worse than that...I'll put this scenerio out there...taking the worst case...
Gonna go out on a limb here and step on some toes...remember this is only one possible future...
As it sits right now the continued success of baseball as the national sport is based on broad based community participation of LARGE numbers of kids. The way it is currently organized I estimate that 80% of american boys try baseball at the community level. 80%! This is simply a pheonominal success.
I talk to parents from other spoprts all the time who want to make other sports prosper, I tell them to emulate the community baseball model.
This broad based community succes is based on a number of factors, not the least of which is history. Parents remember when they played and so young people simply are groomed to sign up. Parents put in an amazing amount of time as coaches, snack bar, field prep, boards, fund raising...(stay with me I know I'm preaching to the choir...)
(I agree TPM...).....When elite ball, and high expense syphons off the cream, and those second and third tier players who have money and will chase the cream ...will there be enough players and dedicated parents left to run the leagues and will there be enough enthusiasm for those community leagues to prosper?
When you turn an 80 player league into a 40 player league with left overs, will it survive?
When the community programs begin to faulter the broad base that baseball has enjoyed (The 80%) will be gone in less than a generation. The numbers who have a history with the game will decline incredibly, major league attendance will decline...Th wave that baseball has enjoyed for a hundred years will be challenged.
I would LOVE to see a baseball summit of ALL baseball organizations with the express goal of saving and preserving spring community baseball.
44
Itsinthegame...TPM...
IMO, exactly...
But it may be worse than that...I'll put this scenerio out there...taking the worst case...
Gonna go out on a limb here and step on some toes...remember this is only one possible future...
As it sits right now the continued success of baseball as the national sport is based on broad based community participation of LARGE numbers of kids. The way it is currently organized I estimate that 80% of american boys try baseball at the community level. 80%! This is simply a pheonominal success.
I talk to parents from other spoprts all the time who want to make other sports prosper, I tell them to emulate the community baseball model.
This broad based community succes is based on a number of factors, not the least of which is history. Parents remember when they played and so young people simply are groomed to sign up. Parents put in an amazing amount of time as coaches, snack bar, field prep, boards, fund raising...(stay with me I know I'm preaching to the choir...)
(I agree TPM...).....When elite ball, and high expense syphons off the cream, and those second and third tier players who have money and will chase the cream ...will there be enough players and dedicated parents left to run the leagues and will there be enough enthusiasm for those community leagues to prosper?
When you turn an 80 player league into a 40 player league with left overs, will it survive?
When the community programs begin to faulter the broad base that baseball has enjoyed (The 80%) will be gone in less than a generation. The numbers who have a history with the game will decline incredibly, major league attendance will decline...Th wave that baseball has enjoyed for a hundred years will be challenged.
I would LOVE to see a baseball summit of ALL baseball organizations with the express goal of saving and preserving spring community baseball.
44
I think socio-economic issues are having some effect as everyone seems to be suggesting but check out the link below. They blame the high profile super athlete role models in other sports as luring inner city kids away from baseball.
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sports/BlacksinBaseball
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sports/BlacksinBaseball
.
Have talked a lot about this same subject on NorCalPreps as well...Seems to be a combination of factors...
Yep, would agree with TPM and others, this is part of it....
But it's also cultural, role models, economic in the community, economic in the youth leagues, less parent free time due to economics, partial scholarships instead of full, facilities....
many of which your article mentions, thanks!
44
Have talked a lot about this same subject on NorCalPreps as well...Seems to be a combination of factors...
Yep, would agree with TPM and others, this is part of it....
quote:Summer leagues are pricey, costing upwards of $1000 for uniforms, travel, and meals. Unlike AAU basketball, where teams receive full sponsorship from athletic shoe companies, summer league baseball players are expected to pay their own way.
But it's also cultural, role models, economic in the community, economic in the youth leagues, less parent free time due to economics, partial scholarships instead of full, facilities....
many of which your article mentions, thanks!
44
Great discussion on an interesting topic, you Karmanuts (that was for you ob44--saves you a trip to the Karma Hades thread)!
Another phenomenon I have noticed in addition to the lost inner city baseball kid is the loss of kids at an earlier age.
When I played in the Stone Ages, we only had rec ball. Everyone generally played until HS when they either got cut or lost interest.
Now, kids seem to specilize in other sports much earlier, or, because there seems to be a negative perception to playing rec ball, they just quit playing at a much younger age rather than play rec and feel like they can't compete.
Either way, it is truly a shame. For the record, my kids play select and enjoy it, but I guess I am as guilty as anyone.
Another phenomenon I have noticed in addition to the lost inner city baseball kid is the loss of kids at an earlier age.
When I played in the Stone Ages, we only had rec ball. Everyone generally played until HS when they either got cut or lost interest.
Now, kids seem to specilize in other sports much earlier, or, because there seems to be a negative perception to playing rec ball, they just quit playing at a much younger age rather than play rec and feel like they can't compete.
Either way, it is truly a shame. For the record, my kids play select and enjoy it, but I guess I am as guilty as anyone.
Only thing I would add is that it isnt just happening in the inner cities.
Is this why the MLB teams sponsor teams in latin countries?
Is finding talent getting harder and harder or do they just need players to field minor league teams. Is the talented american player turning away sooner or just altogether disappearing?
Just curious.
Is finding talent getting harder and harder or do they just need players to field minor league teams. Is the talented american player turning away sooner or just altogether disappearing?
Just curious.
TPM,
Great questions IMO.
IMO - I think the issues are more seperate than what might appear at first glance.
MLB is definitely turning to Latin America because it is cheaper and a much better return on investment.
However - it also seems to make logical sense that if more young kids from the USA of lesser means turn away from baseball - the available pool in the USA will also shrink.
Maybe alot of the first - and a bit of the second.
IMO.
Great questions IMO.
IMO - I think the issues are more seperate than what might appear at first glance.
MLB is definitely turning to Latin America because it is cheaper and a much better return on investment.
However - it also seems to make logical sense that if more young kids from the USA of lesser means turn away from baseball - the available pool in the USA will also shrink.
Maybe alot of the first - and a bit of the second.
IMO.
Not sure if it's because I'm in the North or because it's the region we're in, but my experience isn't the same as everyone else's seems to be. I guess we're about 20 years behind everyone else here, but I say that it a good way. Baseball is still strong in the region...and in my son's school (AAA size), none of the kids his age play on select teams. I think the closest select team is probably at least an hour away. As a result, the local leagues are solid, little league & pony teams regularly play in the states or nationals, and one AAAA HS team has won a couple of state championships in the past decade. Although you guys make me wish there were some select teams around for my son to play summer & fall ball, you're helping me to appreciate the local leagues here.
Thanks much for the topic & all of the discussion. This is a topic that I've been thinking about after everything I've read here. My son doesn't take lessons, but he goes to a couple of hitting & pitching clinics and also a week-long camp from a local college with a really good program. I go along whenever I can so that I can learn a little more (sometimes I take a few notes); this way, I can help keep my son a little sharper during the months without clinics or camps.
Thanks much for the topic & all of the discussion. This is a topic that I've been thinking about after everything I've read here. My son doesn't take lessons, but he goes to a couple of hitting & pitching clinics and also a week-long camp from a local college with a really good program. I go along whenever I can so that I can learn a little more (sometimes I take a few notes); this way, I can help keep my son a little sharper during the months without clinics or camps.