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Here’s the scenario. HS game, top of 10th, score 3-1 visitors, relief pitcher comes in with no outs and runners on 1st and 3rd. Before pitcher delivers a pitch, he makes 3 throws over to 1st and steps off once. 1st pitch delivered is a ball, and the next is a called strike. The next is a ball in the dirt, then another called strike. The 5th pitch is a ball, and the PU tells batter to take 1st. When R1 heads to 2nd, the pitcher throws the ball to F6 who tags R1, and that’s when the home coach came out and began “discussing” the situation with the PU.

 

Coach says R1 should be called out because there were only 3 balls and the ball was live. PU says no, there were 4 balls and R1 couldn’t be tagged out. Coach tries to tell PU there were only 5 pitches, but PU says the pitcher came in with a 1-0 count. Coach tells him the count was 0-0 when pitcher entered the game and he must have counted one of the throws to 1st as a ball. PU confers with BU but gets no help. Coach asks official scorer(me) what the count was when pitcher took over, and I tell him 0-0. But here’s the rub. PU never asked me anything. If he had, I would have gladly told him there had only been 5 pitches and the count was 3-2, but he didn’t ask. The umpires conferred again, then called the original R1 safe and the batter-runner on 1st.

 

Our fans got mad at me for not telling the ump what the situation was, but couldn’t understand that unless I get asked, its not my job to interfere. Personally, I think the PU should have asked me what the count was after the last pitch, then when they found out it was only the 3rd ball, they should have put the runners back where they were and the batter back in the box. So am I correct or is there some other answer I’m missing?

 

Thanx.

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Originally Posted by Buckeye 2015:

Personally I've never seen a HS umpire ask the guy with the book anything related to balls/strikes.  I have seen questions over the score or a potential mixup in the batting order...where both books were consulted and a decision was made....but never balls/strikes.

Well, that just goes to show how experiences can vary. I get asked at least once or twice every season.

That's a good one. In a cases like this, though never so crucial, what I have seen happen is that the home  team stands erupt with 20 parents yelling the correct count at the ump, and that's usually enough to get him to check with is partner and/or the scorekeeper.  Yeah, PU is not supposed to listen to the peanut gallery but in this case he usually does.

Runner is out, plate ump blew this one. It is the job of the coaches and players to know what the count is. I have seen many times a PU go to a score keeper to confirm outs, counts, etc. You are correct you are independent recorder of the game, and it is not your place to "manage the umpire".

 

It will be interesting to get the actual rules from some of the more experienced umpires here regarding a scorekeepers responsibility regarding questions from coaches, I believe it is common courtesy to respond to a coach but not sure of the protocol.   

Last edited by BOF

Wow this is a mess and not sure there is a good answer.  The ump should have came to you as the official book (or even got both books to compare) but I have a hard time calling the runner from first out.  What I'm picturing is a kid standing on the base and the ump telling the batter to go to first.  Both stand there and look confused because it's not ball four.  But since umpire tells batter to go to first the baserunner is forced to leave first.  That's umpire's fault - not runner.

 

I guess it all depends on how vocal the ump was on the ball four call.

Agree. No way anybody is out, no matter what happens.  But the only count that matters in the end is the PU's so unless he reverses himself the bases are juiced.  One odd thing is that apparently he messed up the count 5 pitches pitches before he sent the batter to first.  He  didn't give the count before every pitch after that?  Did he give it wrong all along and nobody noticed?

Well, to be honest, I didn’t notice whether or not he gave a verbal or indicated count prior to the last pitch. I know the scoreboard was wrong because I noticed that after the 2nd pitch when it showed 2-1, but the person doing the scoreboard was inside the snack bar, not near me. I know it sounds terrible, but I very seldom correct the scoreboard operator. I have enough to do without worrying about that too. PU may have been indicating it wrong and I missed it. Sitting as close to directly behind him as possible, I get blocked out fairly often from seeing the left hand. If I have any question I just give a “COUNT BLUE” and that usually takes care of it.

 

Luckily, what happened didn’t affect the outcome of the game.

Stats....your scoreboard scenario is interesting because in your situation, just like in ours the bookkeeper and the scoreboard operator are not sitting close to each other.   In most cases I would rather that HS's not use the balls & strikes on the scoreboard...because in most cases it's wrong.  I've always coached our kids (especially my son) to NEVER go by the scoreboard.  You're batting...standing 4-5 feet from the ump.  MAKE SURE you know the count....if you don't, step out and ask. 

Originally Posted by Matt13:

In OBR and NCAA, play stands, but batter comes back up.

 

FED has 10-2-3l, which allows umpires to do what they feel appropriate to fix an incorrect decision. 10.2.3H is almost this exact case play, in which case they return the runner.

 

Fixable in NCAA and I would bet also in OBR. You can't penalize a team with an out if the umpire screws up the count and tells the batter runner it's ball 4.

Originally Posted by Forest Ump:
Originally Posted by Matt13:

In OBR and NCAA, play stands, but batter comes back up.

 

FED has 10-2-3l, which allows umpires to do what they feel appropriate to fix an incorrect decision. 10.2.3H is almost this exact case play, in which case they return the runner.

 

Fixable in NCAA and I would bet also in OBR. You can't penalize a team with an out if the umpire screws up the count and tells the batter runner it's ball 4.

No, Forest.

 

There is no provision in either of these sets that allows a fix if the umpire misrepresents a situation. The situation is what it is, and players are expected to know it. This is no different than calling an infield fly with runners on first and third.

 

The count is the count. PU saying that it's ball four doesn't make it so. R1 was tagged legally, so he's out. Shame on PU and the offense.

Originally Posted by Matt13:
Originally Posted by Forest Ump:
Originally Posted by Matt13:

In OBR and NCAA, play stands, but batter comes back up.

 

FED has 10-2-3l, which allows umpires to do what they feel appropriate to fix an incorrect decision. 10.2.3H is almost this exact case play, in which case they return the runner.

 

Fixable in NCAA and I would bet also in OBR. You can't penalize a team with an out if the umpire screws up the count and tells the batter runner it's ball 4.

No, Forest.

 

There is no provision in either of these sets that allows a fix if the umpire misrepresents a situation. The situation is what it is, and players are expected to know it. This is no different than calling an infield fly with runners on first and third.

 

The count is the count. PU saying that it's ball four doesn't make it so. R1 was tagged legally, so he's out. Shame on PU and the offense.

Matt....Rule 3-6g and Appendix E of the NCAA Rule book backs up what I wrote. There was also a test question on the 2014 NCAA exam that is similar in nature.

 

Last edited by Forest Ump
Originally Posted by Forest Ump:
Originally Posted by Matt13:
Originally Posted by Forest Ump:
Originally Posted by Matt13:

In OBR and NCAA, play stands, but batter comes back up.

 

FED has 10-2-3l, which allows umpires to do what they feel appropriate to fix an incorrect decision. 10.2.3H is almost this exact case play, in which case they return the runner.

 

Fixable in NCAA and I would bet also in OBR. You can't penalize a team with an out if the umpire screws up the count and tells the batter runner it's ball 4.

No, Forest.

 

There is no provision in either of these sets that allows a fix if the umpire misrepresents a situation. The situation is what it is, and players are expected to know it. This is no different than calling an infield fly with runners on first and third.

 

The count is the count. PU saying that it's ball four doesn't make it so. R1 was tagged legally, so he's out. Shame on PU and the offense.

Matt....Rule 3-6g and Appendix E of the NCAA Rule book backs up what I wrote. There was also a test question on the 2014 NCAA exam that is similar in nature.

 

Appendix E does not apply here, because there was not a missed call. 3-6g does not apply here, because there is no rule misinterpretation.

 

If there was a question on the exam, please post it, as I did not have one of that nature on mine.

I think Matt is thinking of the ball4 call getting changed to a strike on a check swing.  In that instance, R1 is out if tagged.

 

In the OP, if the "award" is just changed, I'm not calling the runner out in NCAA or OBR.

 

It would be similar to R1 stealing, getting "tagged out" (and called "out") on ball 4, then stepping off the base and being tagged again.  Put the runner back.

Originally Posted by noumpere:

I think Matt is thinking of the ball4 call getting changed to a strike on a check swing.  In that instance, R1 is out if tagged.

 

In the OP, if the "award" is just changed, I'm not calling the runner out in NCAA or OBR.

 

It would be similar to R1 stealing, getting "tagged out" (and called "out") on ball 4, then stepping off the base and being tagged again.  Put the runner back.

No, I'm not. There is no provision to fix this. In your example, the umpire rendered an incorrect decision. This did not happen in the OP. This discussion has been had multiple times on multiple sites, and the answer comes down to "don't punish the side that was paying attention." 

 

The runner attempted to advance, with liability to be put out. The defense put him out. There was no umpire decision that created this (the ball was still a ball, which is why the ball 4 example does not apply.) There was nothing not covered by rule, so 9.01c doesn't apply.

 

Like I said, if there was a question on the NCAA test addressing this, I'm all ears.

Last edited by Matt13

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