How will you teach hitting?

A slightly different twist.

I can assure you that Mr. Pujols would prefer to have his hands,wrists and forearms as opposed to those of Dal Maxvill or Bud Harrelson.

quote:
Where is the "arm action" in this swing?



Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.

This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times
Posts: 424 | Location: Selma, Alabama | Registered: November 16, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

Where is the "arm action" in this swing?

Linear,
Arm and action on PUJOLS

Lead elbow begins down close to body, rear elbow moves higher causing the bat to be splitting helmet( or higher on some swings) as bottom hand works under top hand on load.

NOW

quote:

The the reverse happens, bat tip accelerates backwards as bat barrel plane changes down toward the 45 slot as hands begin to flatten . Lead elbow works up into plane of the pitch and rear elbow works down to slot AFTER the hips begin rotation.


This is arm and hands action....starting in the 45 slot , pushing the shoulder back starting and staying in the 45 slot is no arm and hand action i. e. Gongalez, Olerud.

No this is not hand and arm action. Scap load and rotation cause it.

quote:

Ny*** posted a clip of Pujols swearing it..bat tipping/plane change( arm and hand action) was not happening in a HR derby. He posted the clip starting it after the tipping of the bat which was more exaggerated in the derby than is a game swing for all of them . Why , because they can get more bat speed
( prelaunch torque) Mankin . He left several frames out to prove his incorrect point of view. Thats when I knew he would go to any lengths to be right. I watched the HR derby and saw most of the players including Pujols do it about 100 times

First of all, HR derby swings are not the equivalent of game swings.

Secondly, I have acknowledged and so has N Y M A N that Bonds, Sheffield and others have arm action in their swing. N Y M A N has proven that tht does not exist. Your interpretation of his HR derby clips is seriously flawed. Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

I have also written a good post here explaining that that is an "add on" after they learned good connected rotation. I explained the difference between quickness and speed. And that speed without quickness is worthless. And, that there is a trade off by ALL hitters in that they soon realize that they have to 'shorten up' to get the barrel to the ball. This shortening up means little to no arm action. At some point in their trial and error development they have mastered the rotation from the center and they "add on" what they are capable of adding without losing quickness.

But, for you or anyone else to use 'arm action' theory as a viable hitting theory is completely destructive to young amateurs. As I said in that other post. They may have immediate gains at their current level of competition. But, as they go up the food chain, the arm action hitting will be their demise.

In this particular clip of Pujols, that you claim shows arm action, there is none. None by your terms, the cocking and tipping the bat and then changing it the other direction by the hands and arms.

What Pujols does, is load his scap and then rotate. There is no arm action that you like to claim. Watch the scap load. Pay attention to where the bat head is at the height of his scap load. It is in the fully cocked position. Then, while in that position, the rotationg starts. There is absolutely no arm action that involves tipping and then untipping the bat. the scap load tips it. The rotation untips it. Yes, he lowers his elbow. All hitters have to lower it to swing.

As for the elbow lowering and giving the appearance that the arms are doing something, they are. They are working in conjunction with the players posture to set the swing plane. They are not accelerating the bat. Acceleration of the bat starts and ends with load/unload of the center.

A rear view shows the plane change to be about double what you see on the side view better. There are important missing frames about bat position before his coil

I agree with all you said but deep into the details of the "how to load your scaps". I know that a partially pronated top hand and a barrel out of launch plane toward vertical facilitates the rear elbow internal rotation. The more complete the internal rotation the stroger and more connected the external rotation/ slotting.

Now lets give Mankin some credit here......the bat tip path helps strengthen connection of the lead arm by applying forces in and back to turn against priming the torso. It also helps and insures the inside out path of the hands CHP.

I would bow down to ****** if they would just acknowledge that Mankin has some of this physics right about the upper body.

I edited my above post to say and I'll repeat, tht torque has been proven to not exist by N Y M A N S simulations.

Proven. Nothing to discuss.

Other than how the continuation on the nonsense sets back youth hitters by years.

The movement you see is a simple setting of the swing plane. There is no significant torque that is instrumental in batspeed development. Nothing that helps the hitter be quicker.

It is simply a move that has to be done since the hands start high. You have to get on plane. What you see gets hitters on plane. There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists.

Swing,

The "theory" has major holes in it. Hence - the selective editing.

He has - IMO - backed himself into a very tight corner.

Its

Further proof that when you're looking to verify your beliefs, instead of searching for the truth, proof and facts are thrown out the window.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:...If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?

Well, first of all they aren't holding back. They are loaded back and they are waiting for the energy to flow to them.

Secondly, another example of literal interpretation of something that is true but misinterpreted to support your belief system.

There is very little "separation" between the upper and lower body in hitting. Pitching, yes. The more the better. However, hitting is reactionery. You don't have time for a lot of separation. When you say swing, you'd better swing or the barrel will be late. This is most certainly true.

But, when you watch video you'll see that the lower body does move before the upper body. Too much separation and you have slack or slop that has to be removed.
But, most of this separation you see is the between the upper and lower body. Check out how the upper body works as one.

You surely aren't saying the hips don't lead. Of course they do and I'm sure you agree.

But, watch how the upper body forms the box and how it all turns together........as one. If th e upper body works as one then the arms aren't going off on their own, bleeding energy from the chain.

Be patient scout. I have 5 or 6 asking me questions at a time. I'll get to everyone. I have no reason to avoid anyone.

Linear,

I do like the way you describe the "slop/slack" in the swing - and I think you are 100% correct about that.

As a slight offshoot - it is exactly this "slop/slack" in youth players that has caused me to so adamantly argue against the heavy bag drill.

My assumption is that the students - are students for a reason. They are still learning how to develop an effective swing - and that they do in fact have this "slop/slack" in their swing.

That "slop/slack" and the use of a 200 pound bag of sand and a bat is what concerns me about that drill.

A bit off track - I know. But just wanted to elaborate a bit.

Scout

5 frames is 1/6 of a second.

Ever wonder how a blind works? Yes, a window blind.

All I know is that if I pull on it and release, it winds up pretty quickly.

As does the iron cord. I saw my wife do it once.

What if a tetherball pole had the ability to rotate at a very high rpm? It would yank the cord and wind it around the pole very quickly.

Think you could throw the ball around the pole as fast....

Nope.

And neither can your arms swing a bat as fast as your body can rotate one.

What if the pole had hands? Do you think they would contribute?

Maybe you should think about rotating so fast that the hands have no chance to help.

quote:

There is no significant contribution toward bat speed. Proven. Over and over and over and over and yet you and other still talk about it as if it exists

I agree again that THT ( top hand pulling backwards doesn't happen for me.

The hands **** early insuring the knob comes out to the oppo box...thats hand action

The bottom hand works under the top taking the barrel out of plane in the stride so that at foot plant the plane change takes the bat barrel back, and flatter as the hips engage. This serves to get the hips a few frames ahead. True connect IS GETTING THE HIPS A FEW FRAMES AHEAD or the SHOULDERS A FEW FRAMES BEHIND . This bat barrel moving down to 45 and in behind the head has a force( no doubt). The direction of this force is opposite the hip turn force. THIS HELPS CONNECTION and insures a rotational hand path. CHP that does exist. Without a CHP the only ball you can hit the center of is an inside pitch that you hit early and out front. What pitch can most players hit...you guessed it.

Why do 90% of all golfers slice the ball...they hit the outside of it. Why? they don't know how to position the club at the top to make and inside /out stroke that matches the hip turn. Why don't golf training aids work on lower body turn...because pros have long known that if you are not in the right position at the top then you cannot fix it during the swing no matter how hard you turn. You just slice it farther. Is the slice the real problem...no the lack of power is the problem because you cannot compress a ball hitting the outside part.

quote:

What if a frog had wings?

He wouldnt bump his a$$ every time he jumped..

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

What if a frog had wings?

My guess, the NY Mets would sign the frog to a 3 year deal.

To test your team's hand path and hitting efficiency chart the ball flights at BP. All things equal there should be as many oppo gap power shots as there are pull gap shots in a random group of pitches. Chart the team and tell me how many players hit the center of the back of the ball. That will tell you how many get their bat barrel square to the ball flight vs how many are quick but still dragging the bat. You can stand at the mound and see how many hide their hands at toe touch and learn the same thing.

Linear...I have taught the same thing you say and it works for 90 % as you say. It works better than what they were doing. Would I start a 10 year old of mine doing it again ....no way.

Would I teach the girls softball team that tomorrow or a LL team that I had little time with...you bet.

Us dads want and think our kids can be better than that 90% don't we

Maybe because he has proven that the Hands Back Hitter teaches anything but good swing mechanics?????

Ops missed that punch....

I thought ****** said you need to load and carry/ maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn.

Thanks we have done both....and describe that objective in the Assembly Guide and Tips for use.

I get one of these testimonials most days...the HBH must be better than a PlayStation. They play with what we buy. Not too many kids are sitting around watching Hitting CDs or writing on this forum.

"Our son already loves the HBH and I'm hopeful that will motivate him to practice alot at home between camp sessions."

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
I thought N Y M A N said you need to load and carry/maintain that load into foot plant. I thought they said to mimimize stride momentum and learn to turn...

Not really. Never heard him say "maintain that load into foootplant." I've heard him say "rotate into footplant".

And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant.

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing.

It's very telling.

BTW, for the record, there is no such thing as a load, as in carry or maintain the load. It is loading or unloading. Nothing in between. For the sake of brevity I may have said something similar. That is why I usually write load/unload together.

quote:

I'm sure you saw his clip comparing your demonstration of the HBH to a very good hitters game swing

Yep and I saw his drills where you rotate with your back foot staying down flat on the ground.

What made that good was that he thought of it..otherwise it seems far from a MLB swing or any other for that matter.

Conclusions...drills don't look like MLB swings. U of GA uses stop and go, walk up drills,and others daily in the offseason.

Lame stuff he post.......in a censored site. You got bumped too ?? Did you go back on bended knee?

"there is no such thing as carry the load "?

Who says what exist...seen Arod long stride...where is the load during this shift?

"And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant." 0.2 sec is shorter than 2.0


Independant thought changes the world...........invented the light bulb...

Linear..tick tick tick

Did he post MLB game swings against Engishbeys 21 drills to teach hitting and say they were doing people harm?

Why?

And why are posting from a site that will not even let you spell his name? wow!

No, my ban was not self-imposed.

And it was not the first time.....nor second....maybe third or fourth.

But, whatever he does with my posting privileges has nothing to do with his knowledge, nor my respect for it.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear..tick tick tick

Did he post MLB game swings against Engishbeys 21 drills to teach hitting and say they were doing people harm?

Why?

And why are posting from a site that will not even let you spell his name? wow!

I must be dense. I don't get this entire post. Splain it for me.

quote:

nor my respect for it

nor my respect for it

What about for HIM?

2. Don't need splainin..he posted a drill station swing against MLB game swing to slam someone elses work and censored any response

. Drills over emphasis certain things. 1000s of people like it . He had no reason to do what he did. Saving grace...very very few people know who he is ,,,,,,,,,or you or me.

They know Jessica Simpson though!

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

Yep and I saw his drills where you rotate with your back foot staying down flat on the ground.

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those. Until you feel it, you may not get it. As long as you continue to use the wrong muscle set you'll continually rotate improperly.

quote:

you go back on bended knee?

I'll go back if allowed. My sons said they got in the other day. Now, the server is down. He has little tolerance for people who are both arrogant and ignorant as he says. I often times quality for one or the other. When I combine the two, like you do, he gets rid of me.

quote:

"there is no such thing as carry the load "?

I've heard him say carry the momentum. I may have said carry the load which is better said carrying the momentum while loading.

quote:

"And that's difficult to do when you have to wait a long second or two for the ball after footplant." 0.2 sec is shorter than 2.0

If that's what it's supposed to be then you need to work on it. However, that is 1/2 the time a hitter has to see the ball, decide whether to swing and execute his swing. That is way longer than a hitter has from footplant.

Most hitters do not understand the load/unload process. The first hitters to understand this will be the first to improve. Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

It concerns ‘bat speed’ vs ‘bat quickness’. I noted while visiting some of the other discussion boards that a good number of coaches believe that a batter my generate great bat speed but be slower getting the bat to the ball than a batter with less bat speed.

I have trouble understanding how two batters can launch the bat from the same position and the batter who generates less bat speed could get the bat to the same contact point quicker than the batter generating greater bat speed. Would someone help enlighten me on this subject?

Note: I define “launch position” as the position of the bat when shoulder rotation (and the swing) is initiated

Jack Mankin

quote:

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.

Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically.

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
It concerns ‘bat speed’ vs ‘bat quickness’. I noted while visiting some of the other discussion boards that a good number of coaches believe that a batter my generate great bat speed but be slower getting the bat to the ball than a batter with less bat speed.

I have trouble understanding how two batters can launch the bat from the same position and the batter who generates less bat speed could get the bat to the same contact point quicker than the batter generating greater bat speed. Would someone help enlighten me on this subject?

Note: I define “launch position” as the position of the bat when shoulder rotation (and the swing) is initiated

Jack Mankin

What's your point, Mr. Mankin? Are you having a difficult time fitting this fact into your belief system?

quote:
One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.


Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically. Actaully, it is improved on the first swing..it takes 20 to stop hitting with the hands and follow the rotation

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.
Posts: 434 | Location: Selma, Alabama | Registered:

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

quote:

One of his greatest assets is he can teach you what muscles you should be using by eliminating ohters. This drill is one of those.

Oh...OK keep your back foot down and turn and turn. Now I get it.... It looks a lot like a MLB swing too. Show me the clips!! and splain.


Your device works directly against proper load/unload.

If you keep your lead elbow behind the belly button and keep it there until your stride foot lands you are in position to rotate from a connected position. I have watched the ball flight of 100s of kids after 20 swings improve dramatically.

Simple station for kids. First kid that used the first prototype won HR Derby against 300 plus in Montgomery...fact. Only 12 yo I knew in that city so it could not have been rigged.

Quite a difference between limiting what your back foot does to learn something else....versus.....teaching an improper load/unload.

One may be incomplete. The other is improper.

By the way, I think it is Jason Bay.....could be wrong, but there is a mlb player whose rear foot barely raises or goes about 1/2 the way of most hitters rear foot.

Finally, the feet are reactive to the hips. Kids can go "onto their toe" and not use their hips properly. Just as they can fan their knee to rotate versus force their knee open by rotating. Controlling one will give you a good indication of the other.

What does the improper load/unload that your device teaches you help with?

What I think is more and more obvious is it's not just the kids that don't understand the load/unload.

quote:

What does the improper load/unload that your device teaches you help with?

Few kids get to toe touch with the hands
coc-ked and their shoulder still loaded.

We teaching them to preload their shoulders and stride to balance. The lead elbow behind the belly button( and remaining bent to 90 degrees) is something they can see vs their bat position.

These kids have never gotten to a post stride position maintaining the upper body box with 1. bent elbow, 2.cocked bat, 3.elbow still behind belly button( loaded shoulders or front shoulder in at launch if your prefer). Their prior tenency was to mess the box up with barring, ect as they stride or never assume a reasonably good upper body position.

They learn to keep the box intact and relaxed as they shift. They land more connected and the ball appears and the stride has been taken( toe open to 45 degrees) so there is no stride momentum and they must turn for the hips to move the hands.

NOW...they are turning with the upper body in a better launch position than most have experienced and they do have some X angle at stride landing....another position they haven't felt.

Great thread.

Happy new Year.

As usual, bbscout nails the issue:

BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"

it is probably impossible to get complete or near complete agreement on the details of what happens here, but in my opinion, Donny/buster describes it the best with arm action that results in the bottom hand working under/then into the plane.

I do not think this is just a "head start". This is optimizing both coil and connection and quickness, but even so is not just and "add on" as you learn the rest of the swing.

bbscout, you may have to be careful about that one arm tee drill, becvasue it IS possible to hit a long way by using a lot of lead arm extension to get a long swing radius like in golf, but this is nothing like the quicker swing needed for hitting.

teacherman says that n y m a n has disproved "THT" but actually,the reality is just the opposite. His rotational swing models actually demonstrated the most difficult thing to sort out which is that a back arm torquing force is applied during the swing, not just earlier in the pre-swing where it is fairly obvious. I will quote the N y m a n models that show this when i get back to my office computer.
teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

the guerrero clip shows the action nicely on a somewhat up (in and waist high,still maintaining box about til contact for this location) at yuothbaseballcoaching.com

teacherman says that you maintain the box. this is more true for up and in.less true as the location goes out and down.

one slight disagreement I have with donny is that there ARE golfing aides that work on breaking the spinning habit on the lower body - there is a spring loaded bar that fits between the knees that forces you to spread the knees,lead leg leading in the right sequence to support the same sort of hip turn as in the high level hitting swing swing.

more detail to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

For the record, I did not say this. Typical bull **** to cloud the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
...BB:"I count the same amount of frames as you do. The rotation is going and the hands are holding back. If the body is working as one, why are the hands holding back for 5 frames of rotation? If they are just along for the ride, why are they not moving? What gets them moving if the center of the body is rotating and they (the hands) are not going anywhere, yet are supposed to be along for the ride?"...

Geesh Tom do you have any intellectual integrity?

Why leave out my explanation of the torso and hands as one with minimal separation between the upper and lower halves?

Cause it may affect how you can frame the issue?

I can make my hands move without arm action and not use the lower body.....why can't you?

Because it doesn't fit the theory?

BTW, Tom, we're all still waiting for clips of the players you work with.......

intellectual integrity?

leave out my explanation

frame the issue?

Because it doesn't fit the theory?

still waiting for clips of the players you work with

incomplete movement vs improper movement

shows only the muscles necessary for an action

don't understand load/unload cycle

quickness is slower but gets there faster

I just read the stuff at http://www.batspeed.com cause the info is based on scientific research plus it's helped my hitting so far. BTW I nominate this thread to be in the Golden Forums.

quote:

BTW, Tom, we're all still waiting for clips of the players you work with.......

Linear,

Where are the clips of the players you work with ?


Scooter

quote:

MR3000, If you read too much on this thread, you will just put yourself in a slump. Smile

Good thing it's the offseason. I already made up my mind on how to hit anyway. So far my swing is becoming a lot quicker and smoother. I just read this for entertainment now.

The hands co-ck, that tips the bat forward, that levers the rear elbow so that it can internally rotate, as the lead elbow comes down to the pect muscle.

Now...the bat tip works from splitting the helmet downward behind the helmet to teh 45 degree launch slot we all use exerting a neg force counter to the forward force of the hips rotating into toe touch.

The lead elbow works up into the pitch plane and the rear elbow slots down. This torques the bat in the direction counter to the hip rotation( ( in an arc toward the catcher.

*** the neg force of the movement of the bat barrel behind the batter and inside the target line from the proper bat path gives the hips something to turn against. It primes the torso and gets the hips 4-5 frames in front of the upper body turn.

This hand, arm, elbow action is subtle but serves to increase torque and brings the knob out to the oppo box in the same circular path of the hips. The shoulders must turn to interface with the turning hips vs the knob to the ball straight hand path people teach that never totally links with the hips turn. It also makes it impossible to put the same swing on an outside pitch as an inside pitch.

This movement pattern maxes connection and angular displacement to the bat barrel( whip;pop) through the zone.

So...the hands are the initiator of a sequence that takes the bat barrel BACK. The elbow actions is defined as a reversing of relative positions... at initiation the lead elbow is by the side and the rear elbow is high and that becomes lead elbow up( in the pitch plane) and real elbow down( slots) sends the bat in the correct direction. The hands must be quiet and follow this pattern to set up a rotation connected to the core.

The bottom hand works underneath the top hand as the lead elbow come down to the body in the preswing.

Attempts to take the knob to the ball at initiation of the preswing will kill the swing. In that sense hands can be terrible. True hand action is late in the swing "hooking the hand path out in the reactionary part of the swing. It is hard to coach.

One word PUJOLS ..watch him , print this and see what he does.

The top hand cocking ( partially pronated) palm toward ground at initiation before the rear elbow internally rotates is the last time I mention hands when instructing.

Swingbuster, ANOTHER NOMINATION FOR "POST OF THE YEAR!"

bbscout, that video clip reminds me of what some describe as "the latest rage" in collegiate batting drills. In a cage when you are between classes without a practice partner, many schools are relying more and more on the tee drill where a ball is placed on a tee at one end of a 70 foot cage and another ball is placed on a tee at the other end of the cage. Players stand on a 2/4 (we use a 2x6) and trying to drive the ball the length of the cage to knock that other ball off of the tee. (BTW, to qualify "latest rage" - due to the fact that the last 2-3 college coaches I've heard speak mention/demonstrate this drill as a part of their presentation.)

bbscout, I understand. The 2x4 and 2/6 are "balance/finish" drills. However, we like them. Yes, we do a lot of tee work. One thing you have to emphasize to high school players is that the tee is VERY VALUABLE. Incoming freshman (especially) think that tee work is for little kids. I just wanted to share that drill and your video gave me an opportunity. If I post very much longer on this topic, posters will know all of the worthless drills we do. LOL!

I have enjoyed reading this thread for a while. Most everyone makes great points, some more eloquently than others. One thing that really keeps entering my mind is the way we analyze the heck out of every movement. Some out there could tell exactly how many times Nomar touches his batting gloves (when he was hitting well, I am surprised some did not try to teach this as well.) I love to analyze video as much as anyone else but I think that we often forget that we can achieve complicated results through simplifying what we teach. While correct mechanics are important, it is how we get kids to use and realize those mechanics that matter. Beautiful cage swings are just that. Keep it simple and try to get the optimal results through small basic changes (IF THEY ARE NEEDED).

Amen hsballcoach. I think swingbuster hit a home run with his description of the mechanics. However it is a complicated approach, maybe one us adults can learn and teach from. I have always taught that the hips rotate with the hands back at the shoulder area. I can see as a teacher what is being done correctly or incorrectly. I can then make those adjustments. The hands are the last part of the trigger for more than one reason. Timing is the biggest. If a hitter is quick and rotates for a fastball and his hands are moving to the ball, and suddenly he realizes it a change!!!. Then what? If his hands are back or delayed for 5 frames or whatever, he stills has a chance to make contact. If hs hands are out front too so, he'll miss or lunge. We must teach in real world situations as thats what our kids face. I still enjoy the technical jargon and the fabulous break down of every part of the mechanics of the swing. What a great site.

Coachric

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:


teacherman says that n y m a n has disproved "THT" but actually,the reality is just the opposite. His rotational swing models actually demonstrated the most difficult thing to sort out which is that a back arm torquing force is applied during the swing, not just earlier in the pre-swing where it is fairly obvious......

and

teacherman also says that the arm action is a reaction to the scap and earlier/more proximal motions. This is not so. In the Pujols clip, when the bat uncoks it is via arm action. the back scap needs to stay loaded at this time. back scap action is not making the bat do this.Neither is the torso.

Bravo!

IMO - The biggest flaw in the theory.

I alluded to our "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter" handout earlier in this thread. To keep this discussion going and to try to keep it positive, I'll post the first 7 from that list. Then, we can discuss some of these aspects of the swing and move on.


1. It has to have a center or axis that can generate centrifugal force.
2. It has to have a principle of hands first – hands last! HOW? The upper body including shoulders and hands act as a unit in a slight negative rotation to initiate the load. Then, the body releases the load while the hands stay back. They stay back or let the ball get to the hitter in an attempt to try to avoid being fooled by the pitch.
3. It has to have the principle of a wrist **** right at but just prior to launch. (Think of golf, shooting a basketball, etc. Anything athletic has a cocking effect so why should the swing be different?)
4. In reality, for a right-handed batter, the fingernails of the right hand are up when contact is made. (Opposite for lefties!)
5. The finish has to be high. (I believe in releasing the top hand – others don’t!)
6. Front toe closed is important! (It is also impossible)
7. There is a relationship between front toe touch-down and the swing. Rather, this involves the hands location and timing. (IT CAN’T BE A STAGNANT RELATIONSHIP!) (This is where we discuss the sprinter coming out of the block!)

Also well put Coach as this is pretty much what we've been teaching for years. Yes you must keep the front foot closed and this can and is accomplished with good training. Good info.

Coachric

Why keep the front foot closed?

Jack Mankin

I know you read this site....You've copied the batspeed/bat quickness information from here to start the thread at your site.

Why have you censored my post? There was nothing flagrant in the post.....other than to accuse you of being so involved in your "religion" that you can't see the truth.

If you are a real man with real concerns about hitting and if you have a genuine interest in helping advance hitting instruction I demand that you post my post.

You specifically asked me a question.....I responded....and you won't post it. I thought your "delay" was for foul language or flagrant comments? What purpose does it serve to censor ideas? Does it help you keep your flock? Does it help you save face? Post it and let the public decide.

Otherwise you are a dishonest, make believe hitting has been who really isn't interested in the truth.

Another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth.

LInear

Since you say I know nothing--tell me why, please make me smart(my New Years Resolution is to have linear, HE who knows it all and is never wrong, revise my thinking and make me smart), why we shouldnt keep the front foot closed!!!!!

Happy New Year

Two answers:

Toe open too soon promotes "flying open" or whatever term you want to use instead of staying "on the ball." Perhaps not a big issue with many but with a younger player that pulls off of the ball anyway...

Second answer - an open toe often destroy balance. I state that, in my opinion, it is impossible to keep the front toe closed. However, it opens as the body opens it with torque. JMHO!

quote:

Why keep the front foot closed?

How closed? The amount of X factor is determines by hands back / foot open. Landing heel higher than toe keep the hands back but blocks the hip shoulder separation. Opening the toe past 45 will overstretch the system and lose power if the hands stay back. See animation of Hank Aaron

see front foot to 45 degrees

http://www.beabetterhitter.com/text/batspeed/coiling/coiling.htm

Coach

Let us see if Linear answers--as he says I know nothing--now I want to learn--you know I hope the kids on our team dont read this they will lose all respect for me--but then again they and I know where we are going--does LInear?

I might be the greatest fisherman of all time.

Hang some "linear" on your hook and you'll catch quite a few yourself.

Does it surprise anyone that TR is the biggest fish?

I agree with the closed front foot. I just wanted to hear your reasons.

I disagree that it is impossible. Look at scout's clip of Brett.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...I hope the kids on our team dont read this they will lose all respect for me...

I'll let you in on a secret......they have little respect for your hitting knowledge now.

LINEAR

I will let you in on a secret

how do you know ? you do not know squat ! Have you talked to my kids?

You have not given an response of quality yet to anyone but then NOBODY KNOWS WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW!!!!

I ask to be taught and made smart and you come on like you do---

Teacherman--I hope you make a good pizza and I have heard nothing to that effect either

Bottom line-- Linear never answers the direct question--ever=-- and he cannot dance either

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

...how do you know ? you do not know squat ! Have you talked to my kids?...

Based purely on my survey. Of all the people I've talked to on this site, other sites....anyone who knows you.....none of them have any respect for your hitting knowledge.

bbscout,

May I ask why you never post clips of Art Shamsky?
I am surprised he didnt make your "top hitter" list.

quote:

Another obstructionist who is more interested in protecting his belief than finding the truth.

Linear ..

who is the other one??

I think so too....

DB

Donny

You can disagree with N Y M A N all you want. But he goes to great lengths to provide accurate information based in science.

You have a bone to pick with him because he dissed your device. Tom has a bone to pick because he was de-moderatored. So was I, in fact, I've been dissed by him more than you. You each get support from each other...

His personality is unique. But, he spews no junk.

NO ONE can attack his integrity.

The two most overused and misunderstood words in teaching hitting are TIMING and BALANCE, IMO......I honestly believe very few Coaches understand how either should/do tie into an efficient swing.....

Most don't realize the amount of chaos MLB hitters create in their swings.....It's considerable and cannot be controlled with their feet/legs......Just as the hands/arms cannot produce enough power to get the bat around to the ball in enough time to hit it efectively.......MLB hitters produce chaotic body movements that are unnatural and go against how the body wants to move to swing the bat......Most, practically all, amateur hitters are taught much less chaotic body movements that are more natural as to how the body wants to move to swing the bat.....They are taught to control their movement with the feet/legs and hands/arms because this is what Coaches know how to do.......This is how they were taught to swing a bat.....

High level (MLB) swings create much more chaos/momentum and is controlled from the middle of the body..........The focus should not be on the feet/legs or hands/arms........

Timing is an event of the brain......Get the swing technique right and just let the brain do it's thing.......That's why it's so important for a hitter not to be thinking in the box.....If you're trying to teach timing, you're making a mistake, IMO......

Linear,

And some people have no bones to pick with him.

They simply disagree because they have read his stuff - and dont support his theories - or at least some of them.



BTW - who cares about his personality - or the other stuff? We want good, thought provoking baseball theory - thats all.

I have no problem with people like that. If they choose to ignore facts, so be it.

However, Donny is trying to bring issues of honesty and integrity. Those issues do not exist.

I will refer you to Batspeed.com if you're looking for honesty and integrity issues.

Here's what I think about the stride foot.

I think you should learn with it closed and when you hit good forget about it. Let it do what it wants.

The issue really isn't the foot in the stride......It's the front leg.......If you can use the front leg properly either way, it doesn't matter open or closed.....If you can't, it matters......Some hitters can't use the front leg properly with an open stride foot....And some can.....Whatever it takes to use the front leg properly is the issue.....

Interesting when you see guys like Brett and Williams. I wonder if they ever "adjusted" the position of their front foot if they were trying to hit the other way - or if they both learned over time to compensate for their own styles in another way.

I say this because - in addition to looking for the right pitch to hit the other way - I always tried to keep the lead foot more closed when going opposite field.

Blue Dog is absolutely right. I said learn closed then let it do whatever. The point is, as Blue Dog says, you need the leg to do the right thing. IF the front foot is closed the leg is almost forced to do the right thing.

If it is open, while learning, it probably won't.

Once you learn what you want the leg to do, you can do it without worrying about the foot.

Anyone want to take a stab at the question of whether Brett and/or Williams adjusted their front foot to hit opposite field - or compensated in some other fashion?

You guys jump around from body part to body part faster than a latte filled surgeon.

Ted always said history is made on the inside half (or something thereabouts).

So, I believe he wanted to pull most everything....therefore, the open foot.

I know.

It's wanted someone to say something about his idea...so I did.

"Ted Williams strides to a more open front foot position than most great hitters. WHY?"

Bbscout, in your attempt to act like you should know more than others because you're a Scout, you cloud issues......You know I'm not impressed by MLB people, so.......

Ted Williams does what he does with his stride foot because he was a great hitter and could do it.....What this means is, he could stride open and still use his front leg properly........Some can and some can't......You make a big deal over this and it isn't such a big deal for MLB hitters.....

Amateur hitters are a different breed.....I explained why in an earlier post, their swing is not the same.....They balance with their feet/legs, they reach out with their hands/arms.....They don't use their middle properly......They don't know how......If they don't stride closed, chances are pretty doggone good they will not use their front leg properly and spin.....

CaochB25 is absolutely right.....Amateur hitters should be taught to stride with a closed front foot....

Linear,

Actually, I was looking for very specific opinions
that related directly to my question.



Did Williams and Brett adjust foot position in order to be able to hit to the opposite field later in their careers - or did they make other adjustments? That was the question.

I know how you feel. They are hard to find here.

Especially from you Linear--best tap dancer I have seen since Sammy Davis JR and his family

Teacherman--answer a question for once instead of tryinmg to degrade everyone but your "shill brother" Bluedog --he too never answers a question-- I ask that you try and make me smart and still no answer


also nobody is "absolutely right" about hitting methods and procedures, least of all Bluedog and you

Cmon answer my question--make me smart PLEASE!!!!!

quote:

Amateur hitters are a different breed.....I explained why in an earlier post, their swing is not the same.....They balance with their feet/legs, they reach out with their hands/arms.....They don't use their middle properly......They don't know how......If they don't stride closed, chances are pretty doggone good they will not use their front leg properly and spin.....

I just got back from the park with my partners little girls. One is 6 the other 10th grade. The 10th grader had no problem with arm and hand action and striding the front open 45 degrees as the hands went bak. She hit balls off the tee head high and through the box about 70 % of the time . This was her first attempt to change her swing. Her Dad was amazed at her power and more importantly the new direction of the power.

The amount the foot is open in relation to the shoulder position at toe touch determines the stored power in the system. As I said before too much can over stretch the system. Hands over the plate and a foot wide open might let you drive the inside pitch over the fence. Piazza lands closed as he hits to RC...did he anticipate an outside pitch ?? I don't know.

Are we teaching a dual sustem?? I thought the label was a "high level swing". Why the shift to nobody can do it so we dumb it down......to something. I would think that rotating into toe touch would be to an open foot. I would think that it was connecting the upper and lower body. Aaron and Williams should be enough to accept the fact that it is pretty useful

OBTH...the six year old was happy just to be there

"The Bible says it this way, “the precious possession of a man is diligence.” This means the ability to slow down all his faculties in order to concentrate on and persevere through details. Picasso said this, the details, is where genious lies. Perhaps one out of twenty men has diligence in his nature, and from my experience, one out of 100 in baseball."

The quote above is taken from a manuscript I really appreciate........The point, IMO, is, don't let anyone cloud the real issues.......Look through smokescreens and see what is really there.......Don't accept the, "this is the way we do it because it's always been done this way mentality"........

MLB hitters swing differently than amateur hitters....That's why they are so much better.......The old, "they see better and have better hand/eye coordination" argument is nonsense......MLB hitters have swings that aren't in sync with how the body/brain wants to get the bat around to the ball.........Somehow, MLB hitters have overcome the odds and taught themselves how to create the chaos and control it with unnatural body movements........

Coaches need to look through smokescreens and do the diligence required to understand how MLB hitters rise to the top.......

quote:

MLB hitters have swings that aren't in sync with how the body/brain wants to get the bat around to the ball.........Somehow, MLB hitters have overcome the odds and taught themselves how to create the chaos and control it with unnatural body movements........

Say what??

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:

...The 10th grader had no problem with arm and hand action and striding the front open 45 degrees as the hands went bak.

How do you know? Compared to what? Did she do it both ways? Does she use her front leg properly? Were the best 10 yr olds in the country there for comparison?

quote:

The amount the foot is open in relation to the shoulder position at toe touch determines the stored power in the system.

Unadulterated BS

quote:

I ask that you try and make me smart......

TRhit, even Picasso couldn't paint on a muddy canvas......

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...I ask that you try and make me smart...

No one can handle this burden.

N-yman has made some good observations but I am not sure he is heading in the right direction now.

Lately, the quickness deal, the nobody knows how to load and unload, the close the foot off until later, we are teaching amateurs, MLB guys don't have good swings that match the MLB guys of years past ........this is not the science and engineering that he built the house on.

This is all opinion and you can buy that anywhere. It is a big fastpitch clinic working backwards to rewrite the book.

I would love to see you two go one on one.

Bluedog,

Picasso had nothing to do with Brett and Williams ability to hit to the opposite field later in their careers.

Would you please give your opinion on the question I posed to you?

Thanks in advance.

quote:

Are we teaching a dual sustem??

Hitting for Dummies

Learning the High Level Swing


I listened more when the later was being discussed.

Linear writes

"IF the front foot is closed the leg is almost forced to do the right thing.

If it is open, while learning, it probably won't".


How can you make statements like that and then say anything is "unadulterated BS" . Like I said the science is missing and teaching opinion is dominating the "absolutes". It is right because we say it is right. Nothing credible. You need to use IMO before those statements.

Linear

Then you are not as good as you say-- I also think you are brainwashed

I offer you challenges and you retreat

We ask for examples and you cannot give them

You are a mere nothing -- a shill for a website of claymation dolls---DUH--can we get real and go one on one with a student-- two years now he has backed down from a challenge to show what he knows-- no more offers-- I have people who want to teach and instruct and are real--not cyberspace characters

Its

he never answers questions because he cannot--

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear writes

"IF the front foot is closed the leg is almost forced to do the right thing.

If it is open, while learning, it probably won't".


How can you make statements like that and then say anything is "unadulterated BS" .

How can you challenge it with your knowledge base?

Please Donny, tell us the role of the front leg.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear

Then you are not as good as you say-- I also think you are brainwashed

I offer you challenges and you retreat

We ask for examples and you cannot give them

You are a mere nothing -- a shill for a website of claymation dolls---DUH--can we get real and go one on one with a student-- two years now he has backed down from a challenge to show what he knows-- no more offers-- I have people who want to teach and instruct and are real--not cyberspace characters

Its

he never answers questions because he cannot--

I understand you can't read. Just because you can't read and comprehend doesn't mean answers aren't given.

Here's your opportunity It's.

You've been good lately. Put him in his place.

quote:

Please Donny, tell us the role of the front leg.

Who wants to take a test up when nobody has ever gotten an answer right because you guys make them up as you go along.

I would answer them all if I knew who was grading it

Linear

It really gets boring with your condescending attitude---

You teach nothing--you regurgitate--does HE know that !!!

Like I said have a happy new year

Swingbuster, I consider you a good guy.....Not the first time I've said that......

There was a time when me and you agreed on most of hitting philosophy and technique.....I can see we have taken different paths at some point.......I must admit that I have been greatly influenced by two people who I very much respect (we both know who they are)..........Paul and Steve......They have taught me to see the details......I know you are at odds with them and I know why......I'm sorry to see this happen, I really am.....I'm even sorrier to see you lose out by not learning from them......But, again, I know it's a situation which is, I suppose, inevitable that this would happen......Personally, I'm no longer a save the world type of person......To each his own......I won't argue hitting with you on a personal level because I like you and I know you mean well........I just hope you aren't tuning Paul and Steve out because of personal reasons.......

BlueDog

Paul who ? Your Guru/ The Claymation Man?

You and linear need to get your own life-- speak for yourself--do not be a mouthpiece that cannot answer questions from posters who know what they talk about and posters like me who you say know nothing.

Happy New Year

Game, what do you not understand about what I said?..........Any hitter can stride any way they so choose (front foot closed or open) as long as they use their front leg properly, it doesn't matter......Problem is, most amateur hitters don't know how to use their front leg properly, need some help with this, and striding closed helps them to do so......

CoachB25 explained this very eloquently and I agree with him........

Now, Ted Williams could use his front leg properly striding with an open or closed front foot.......Pitch location in, out, or over his head, probably doesn't matter......

Actually - I was enjoying the discussion about open and closed foot positions.

I would have loved to hear some opinions about Brett/Williams - and what adjustments they made (or didnt make).

It does appear as if now we have strayed far afield. From Picasso - to a validation that Ted Williams was a great hitter - LOL - to well - just about everything in between.

Hopefully - this thread will continue with some good questions - some real answers/opinions/observations - and something of value for players - parents and coaches.

At this point - it has become valueless IMO.

BlueDog,

If those guys have something to offer and I am sure they do. Burn it on a CD and sell it and advertise it. Be respondsible for the content and take the good with the bad.

This Horse puckey BS that is third hand ..hand me down ..cryptic, "if you only knew sh** gets old.

State the case , publish the info, and let the world in on an opportunity to reap the rewards and be judged like everybodey else.

Epstein has sold many tapes. People want to hear other points of view Where can I buy one? I can get them made for them in China for fifty cents. Just send me the copy and I will get you 40,000 of them.

This business about.. I know what you don't know and what I know is law and you guys don't get it is crazy and nobody is buying it.

The man that made the first bat speed meter now says batspeed doesn't matter.

Thank you Doug.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuster:
...The man that made the first bat speed meter now says batspeed doesn't matter.

You are totally uninformed. If your batspeed.com comments about quickness v speed are your true feeling you couldn't be more wrong.

I can stand in the batters box against 90+ and take a pepper like swing and make solid contact often. I can not make solid contact when trying to generate batspeed. Why?

Reason is my mechanics don't let me be quick enough to catch up. What it takes me to generate batspeed is diametrically opposed to what it takes to get the barrel to the ball.

And this is the story of 99% of all youth hitters. When you figure this out you'll be a good champion for hitting. Until then, you're off track. You need GPS to be found.

Hitting with the front foot closed allows the hip to pop when the hands come through, at the same time transferring weight from the back of the body to the front. It's the cornerstone of generating power against a stiff front leg. What is the debate about? This is a hitting absolute. Your front foot is down at release, so there is no open or closed choice. Brett was ALWAYS closed. Williams pulled everything, so he was hitting the ball out front most of the time, closed to the ball but not home plate. A notable exception was Roberto Clemente, who often had his front foot open but always had his hands back and his hips closed.

Ted Williams stated in his book that he closed his stance at the plate to hit opposite field......He felt this promoted an inside out swing, more like a push.....Jeter does the same thing......

Not to be confused with a closed front foot....

Wow, go away for a while and have practice (basketball) and look what happens. I'm glad to see that most of this isn't getting too personal. I'd like to throw one more iron into the fire. We had so much trouble with poor stides, ie. too long, stepping in the bucket, diving into balls and getting jammed over the many years we did camps that we've gone to "Heal - Toe." One major benefit we discovered almost by accident is that we could keep the toe closed better since we now had the ultimate control over that front foot. Also, this enabled us to have the ability to "let the ball get to us" better since we took out a movement that didn't always produce the effect we sought. I know not many greats in the past did this. BTW, our power numbers really went up doing this although I don't simply attribute them to this. THOUGHTS?

I don't know, but if the greatest hitter that ever lived didn't do it, I have a hard time calling it an absolute.