BBScout,
I believe every word of what you just wrote..now when was the last time you coached a kid and really had to teach something? Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that. Can you visualize that, or am I going to get a million clips of Honus Wagner's stance or Joe Morgan's stride now? The stride is a timing device more than anything else. With younger players, the wide stance gives them less room to make a mistake. Instead of giving me Stan the Man or Harmon Killebrew, find fault with the actual concept and maybe, for the first time here, I can actually learn something from you.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
BBScout,
Young hitters often pull off the ball as a natural instinct. A wider stance leaves less opportunity to do that.
With the little guys - and even some of the bigger ones - I used to address "pulling off the ball" without tinkering with the stance.
Very simple thing to do - unless the kid was just plain scared to death of the ball.
BBScout,
Let's just move on. I'm disappointed with your inability to grasp simple teaching concepts and your disconnection with what it takes to coach young hitters. I see no point is defending simple techniques to a man who claims an extensive baseball background and truly should be able to comprehend them and understand their usefulness.
Let's just move on. I'm disappointed with your inability to grasp simple teaching concepts and your disconnection with what it takes to coach young hitters. I see no point is defending simple techniques to a man who claims an extensive baseball background and truly should be able to comprehend them and understand their usefulness.
I'm just glad to see two people arguing and me not be one of them. Of course, when I'm involved it's me against the hsbaseballweb army.
This site can make someone get a complex.
But, I'm fighting it off.
This site can make someone get a complex.
But, I'm fighting it off.
Yes, it can.
Reflecting on the whole thread:
I think the most fascinating part of this thread is that there is virtually nothing here - and I mean nothing - that wasnt taught 40 years ago to me by my dad.
New words may have been "invented" - we may get some scientific equations thrown in - but the bottom line is there is nothing new IMO.
It really is remarkable.
I think the most fascinating part of this thread is that there is virtually nothing here - and I mean nothing - that wasnt taught 40 years ago to me by my dad.
New words may have been "invented" - we may get some scientific equations thrown in - but the bottom line is there is nothing new IMO.
It really is remarkable.
Its, I agree...just that there so many more experts now that computers are in play.
Baseball1228,
I guess the use of high quality video has been the biggest change IMO.
You know - for years now - I would read - and comment. Because I didnt know the fancy new names - or didnt have a protractor handy - I got called alot of names. LOL None were very flattering.
But the ability to "see through the mist" is important. In any endeaveor IMO.
I am glad we have so many fine coaches that visit here - and I hope they keep visiting and contributing.
I know I have asked bbscout many questions over the years - and I like his answers because I can understand what he is saying.
Just some observations.
I guess the use of high quality video has been the biggest change IMO.
You know - for years now - I would read - and comment. Because I didnt know the fancy new names - or didnt have a protractor handy - I got called alot of names. LOL None were very flattering.
But the ability to "see through the mist" is important. In any endeaveor IMO.
I am glad we have so many fine coaches that visit here - and I hope they keep visiting and contributing.
I know I have asked bbscout many questions over the years - and I like his answers because I can understand what he is saying.
Just some observations.
You can understand me.....but you won't.
It's a good thing you can't understand Tom......no one can.
It's a good thing you can't understand Tom......no one can.
On the contrary, I understand alot of what you write. It takes some time - (kind of like reading a book while someone is flinging mashed potatoes at you - LOL).
I just dont agree with some of your stuff. Especially the lack of emphasis on the importance of the hands/arms and wrists in the swing.
And Tom was kind enough to break down his explanation for me a little yesterday.
I just dont agree with some of your stuff. Especially the lack of emphasis on the importance of the hands/arms and wrists in the swing.
And Tom was kind enough to break down his explanation for me a little yesterday.
Its all in the game-
I think that is a good point.Nothing very new under the sun for a while.
You might look for that old book BATTING, a compilation of a sportswriters MLB interviews up until about 1925.Hundreds of pages of advice fromt the great oldtimers most of which still applies.
Ty Cobb describes Babe Ruth as the one who really developed these mechanics because he was a goofy left handed pitcher,he was left alone the first few years in the bigs to hit however he wanted.
This optimized arm action way is what he settled on and he could do it with heavy lumber whereas the modern guys prefer the light stuff.
Cobb called the Babe a "home run specialist".
Also the atsroturf small ball years caused a lot of forgetting as have metal bats.
The (me/we?) new discovery people invent a lot of fancy names and hypnotize themselves,even to the point of starting to believe the "scienec" of their models and not the reality of what the hitters do/have in common. This kind of "science" can convince you things like the hands are "just along for the ride" or there is a better mousetrap, But I don't believe that.
I think that is a good point.Nothing very new under the sun for a while.
You might look for that old book BATTING, a compilation of a sportswriters MLB interviews up until about 1925.Hundreds of pages of advice fromt the great oldtimers most of which still applies.
Ty Cobb describes Babe Ruth as the one who really developed these mechanics because he was a goofy left handed pitcher,he was left alone the first few years in the bigs to hit however he wanted.
This optimized arm action way is what he settled on and he could do it with heavy lumber whereas the modern guys prefer the light stuff.
Cobb called the Babe a "home run specialist".
Also the atsroturf small ball years caused a lot of forgetting as have metal bats.
The (me/we?) new discovery people invent a lot of fancy names and hypnotize themselves,even to the point of starting to believe the "scienec" of their models and not the reality of what the hitters do/have in common. This kind of "science" can convince you things like the hands are "just along for the ride" or there is a better mousetrap, But I don't believe that.
Its,
I'm new to this and really am excited about being able to learn from guys like Linear, as soon as I get up to speed on the buzz phrases...
Thanks!
I'm new to this and really am excited about being able to learn from guys like Linear, as soon as I get up to speed on the buzz phrases...
Thanks!
If you two will stop I'll tell everyone that each of you got the last word. 
How about this....me playing traffic cop.
If you two don't stop I'm going to tell MN-MOM.
Just kidding......carry on.
How about this....me playing traffic cop.
If you two don't stop I'm going to tell MN-MOM.
Just kidding......carry on.
BBScout,
I offer reasons for what I do with my kids that you selectively ignore...I understand the value of film when properly utilized, not when comparing apples and oranges...I understand the difference between a square peg and a round hole...I have a great desire to learn from those with the ability to teach...and there is nothing wrong with simple when it works well to make a young child a better baseball player. And I can easily recognize a condescending statement when I see one... It's OK. I'll still do what works well.
I offer reasons for what I do with my kids that you selectively ignore...I understand the value of film when properly utilized, not when comparing apples and oranges...I understand the difference between a square peg and a round hole...I have a great desire to learn from those with the ability to teach...and there is nothing wrong with simple when it works well to make a young child a better baseball player. And I can easily recognize a condescending statement when I see one...
It's OK. I'll still do what works well.quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
Hey Linear, I liked the clips of your kids. Of course clips have no value
Don't call me OLD GUY!!......
That's my best TR impression.
bbscout
Which page did you post the clips of Rose, Williams, and Robinson? This thing has gotten so long I could be looking forever.
Thanks.
Which page did you post the clips of Rose, Williams, and Robinson? This thing has gotten so long I could be looking forever.
Thanks.
I read most of these discussions on hitting and sometimes feel like jumping in. Then realize I don’t have the time or energy needed to keep up with you guys. Then someone like Tom or even at times swingbuster decides to post things that make me feel like I don’t have the intelligence to keep up. Tom Guerry is the hitting version of Tom House (that’s a compliment) but I really don’t fully understand what is being said. Kind of like a foreign language to us dummies.
Seeing that you guys are constantly debating hitting and I try to read it all, I’ve noticed some changes in beliefs by some of you over the last year or two. I personally think that is a good thing. It reminds me of a good student rather than someone who has learned it all.
Personally I am a firm believer that half (maybe more) of hitting is natural talent. I also believe that the visual and mental side of hitting is at least half the remaining half. Then a good portion of the rest involves getting stronger physically. What’s left is technique and it’s still very important, but some seem to think it is the only thing keeping people from being a great hitter. Technique alone is almost useless to most of those without natural ability. The perfect technique does not guarantee producing a good hitter, but it sure can be important to the hitter who has the other qualities. JMO
One good reason for widening the stance is there is less movement before foot down. There is less changing of the plane of the eyes. The farther you stride the more your eyes go from high to low. There is more focus on rotation with small stride rather than long stride. Long stride is actually more conducive to linear technique. And if the front foot lands before anything happens, there can be no real benefit from a long stride. It has nothing to do with hitting, but some feel it is part of their timing and approach. Anyway I think young kids are best off spreading out more than most of them do. This makes it much easier (less elements) to do things correctly. IMO
Often the word comfort is used, but the most comfortable position for almost everyone is to stand straight up with feet under the shoulders. The most important thing is being in the best position to hit, not the most comfortable position. See Jeff Bagwell! Of course, the most important position is at contact.
My theory on spreading out or using a wider stance has nothing to do with actual hitting… In younger players it has to so with eliminating a useless maneuver (long stride) that has no benefit in most cases. It makes things easier for most to widen out! Sometimes the positive results are immediate. There have been MLB hitters who spread out slightly more in two strike counts. Canseco for one!
These discussions are fun and educational for me. I think I’ll climb back into the cocoon now, if you guys will allow that. I’ll continue to keep reading. Great thread!
Seeing that you guys are constantly debating hitting and I try to read it all, I’ve noticed some changes in beliefs by some of you over the last year or two. I personally think that is a good thing. It reminds me of a good student rather than someone who has learned it all.
Personally I am a firm believer that half (maybe more) of hitting is natural talent. I also believe that the visual and mental side of hitting is at least half the remaining half. Then a good portion of the rest involves getting stronger physically. What’s left is technique and it’s still very important, but some seem to think it is the only thing keeping people from being a great hitter. Technique alone is almost useless to most of those without natural ability. The perfect technique does not guarantee producing a good hitter, but it sure can be important to the hitter who has the other qualities. JMO
One good reason for widening the stance is there is less movement before foot down. There is less changing of the plane of the eyes. The farther you stride the more your eyes go from high to low. There is more focus on rotation with small stride rather than long stride. Long stride is actually more conducive to linear technique. And if the front foot lands before anything happens, there can be no real benefit from a long stride. It has nothing to do with hitting, but some feel it is part of their timing and approach. Anyway I think young kids are best off spreading out more than most of them do. This makes it much easier (less elements) to do things correctly. IMO
Often the word comfort is used, but the most comfortable position for almost everyone is to stand straight up with feet under the shoulders. The most important thing is being in the best position to hit, not the most comfortable position. See Jeff Bagwell! Of course, the most important position is at contact.
My theory on spreading out or using a wider stance has nothing to do with actual hitting… In younger players it has to so with eliminating a useless maneuver (long stride) that has no benefit in most cases. It makes things easier for most to widen out! Sometimes the positive results are immediate. There have been MLB hitters who spread out slightly more in two strike counts. Canseco for one!
These discussions are fun and educational for me. I think I’ll climb back into the cocoon now, if you guys will allow that. I’ll continue to keep reading. Great thread!
And just how long have you let all that build up?
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
but I see well below average hitting coaches at both the college and minor league level of play...
Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaaa a men!! Aaaaaa a men!! A men!! A men!!
Can you hear the tune?
I agreed 10,000%
BBScout,
PG writes about a wide stance that cuts down the possibility of mistakes and a short stride and you tell him it's a good post?! Now I know what it's like to be a rookie in a veteran clubhouse!!!
Your most recent post was very informative and made lots of sense. Maybe I really can learn from you...
PG writes about a wide stance that cuts down the possibility of mistakes and a short stride and you tell him it's a good post?! Now I know what it's like to be a rookie in a veteran clubhouse!!!
Your most recent post was very informative and made lots of sense. Maybe I really can learn from you...
quote:someone like Tom or even at times swingbuster decides to post things that make me feel like I don’t have the intelligence to keep up. Tom Guerry is the hitting version of Tom House
PG ... high level discussions and lo tech drills for now
Practice today consisted of hitting line drives up the middle off of a standard batting tee. Some tips and advice occassionally
When they can all do 8 of 10 we will move on.
All the info in the world is no good until they can practice and get some personal feedback from ball flight.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
...Hubbell and Sauer were with the Giants minor league system for about 30 years apeice.Bobby Bonds, Mays, McCovey, Jim Ray Hart, Mathews, Foster Maddox, Kingman, J. Clark, C. Davis, W. Clark. All these guys were coached by Hank Sauer over a 30 year period. You don't see that going on now except in a very few cases.
Amen to that too.
It's good to agree with everything bbscout says.....
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
...Pro ball.......they don't pay the minor league hitting coaches enough to get quality coaches. The good ex big league hitters don't want to coach because they made enough money to retire and play golf. They end up with many guys who just need a job and are good guys, so they are now hitting coaches. A $25,000 per year coach is trying to help the $2,000,000 bonus baby....
Yes, I agree with this too.
I can't imagine anything harder than a $25,000 coach getting a $2,000,000 ball player to listen.
I agree with all of that too.
Arguing about the stride and grip is entertaining to say the least.......
Itsinthegame, these questions you keep asking are entertaining, also.....You keep meaningless arguments going......It's some of your best work...........You may want to consider giving Bbscout a break, though......He's been quite busy teaching as of late........And, teaching stride and grip is hard work......
Itsinthegame, these questions you keep asking are entertaining, also.....You keep meaningless arguments going......It's some of your best work...........You may want to consider giving Bbscout a break, though......He's been quite busy teaching as of late........And, teaching stride and grip is hard work......
Thats a wonderful observation Bluedog.
I've said it before and I'm moved to say it again.....
Most have no idea where/how MLB hitters power their swing.......Some talk about the front foot striding open or closed but have no understanding of why some hitters can stride with an open front foot and hit well and some can't.......
Vision is very misunderstood, also.......Holding the head still is not the way to go......The head needs to be free to move........
Most have no idea where/how MLB hitters power their swing.......Some talk about the front foot striding open or closed but have no understanding of why some hitters can stride with an open front foot and hit well and some can't.......
Vision is very misunderstood, also.......Holding the head still is not the way to go......The head needs to be free to move........
Bluedog,
Please tell us how you would teach a young hitter to utilize vision for the best results. Or do you believe vision is not that important?
Please tell us how you would teach a young hitter to utilize vision for the best results. Or do you believe vision is not that important?
quote:His head may be free to move, but it moves less than any of the other top hitters
Good observation Scout
The more perfect the rotational mechanics the less one relies on shift momentum. Yet his upper body movement pattern, bend and unbend from waist, and belly up move to hit created the quickest and most powerful swing during his era.
.
Linear writes: On page one. A fair and accurate statement IMO
You mentioned knowing how to load and unload properly. Would like some clarification...what you think as above ; not the what is wrong with what I think
Above where you say "load your center"...what energy can you create in the center besides
Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
What defines connection besides the spatial relation ship of the hips and the shoulders?
What visual markers( body part relationships) do you look at on clips to define connection ?
Where do you see slop if the torso is primed when the ball is half way home ?
B25...have you hit some tee work LD up the middle yet?
quote:But, as they advance, they will have to learn something completely different to be successful. They will have to learn to load their center, create momentum by carrying the load into foot touch and launch with good connected rotation. Otherwise they will never develop the swing quickness to "catch up" to the pitching speeds they have to face.
You mentioned knowing how to load and unload properly. Would like some clarification...what you think as above ; not the what is wrong with what I think
Above where you say "load your center"...what energy can you create in the center besides
Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
What defines connection besides the spatial relation ship of the hips and the shoulders?
What visual markers( body part relationships) do you look at on clips to define connection ?
Where do you see slop if the torso is primed when the ball is half way home ?
B25...have you hit some tee work LD up the middle yet?
Which is the best instructional video available that breaks down, explains and teaches hitting for college level hitters?
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
I can't answer until I know what this stuff is.
Doug,
If it were physically possible without affecting the swing itself, the best vision would result from a negative movement until launch and very little during the swing. This may be impossible, but there is no question it allows the hitter the very best vision and tracking.
One only needs to go to a race track, set in the first row, and watch the cars speed by to prove this. If you move your eyes towards the car they are a blur. If you fix your eyes on the car you see very well for a very short period of time. If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time. In a way, your eyes are making the car slow down! A person can do the same thing standing by the side of a highway or standing in the batters box just watching the ball. Oddly enough it’s called TRACKING.
I understand most of the technical aspects that are brought up here and I do think this stuff is vitally important. There are a few real serious hitting people who post here.
However, I think the visual and mental aspects of hitting are at least equally important. The first thing we used to do when a hitter was struggling is put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches, without swinging of course. In many cases this helped a lot. Most slumps are not caused from mechanical breakdowns. The swing doesn’t always change during the slump. Almost always it’s a vision or mental problem. To understand this, you need experience! That’s why I speak so highly about the importance of experience. Also agree that many with tons of experience, don’t understand what they did and certainly can’t teach it. It’s those who have both the experience and ability to learn and teach that have the biggest advantage.
If it were physically possible without affecting the swing itself, the best vision would result from a negative movement until launch and very little during the swing. This may be impossible, but there is no question it allows the hitter the very best vision and tracking.
One only needs to go to a race track, set in the first row, and watch the cars speed by to prove this. If you move your eyes towards the car they are a blur. If you fix your eyes on the car you see very well for a very short period of time. If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time. In a way, your eyes are making the car slow down! A person can do the same thing standing by the side of a highway or standing in the batters box just watching the ball. Oddly enough it’s called TRACKING.
I understand most of the technical aspects that are brought up here and I do think this stuff is vitally important. There are a few real serious hitting people who post here.
However, I think the visual and mental aspects of hitting are at least equally important. The first thing we used to do when a hitter was struggling is put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches, without swinging of course. In many cases this helped a lot. Most slumps are not caused from mechanical breakdowns. The swing doesn’t always change during the slump. Almost always it’s a vision or mental problem. To understand this, you need experience! That’s why I speak so highly about the importance of experience. Also agree that many with tons of experience, don’t understand what they did and certainly can’t teach it. It’s those who have both the experience and ability to learn and teach that have the biggest advantage.
PG - Very interesting thoughts. This may be old hat for many of of you, but while I was reading your last post, a light bulb went off.
You said that when you had a hitter who was struggling you put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches. You go on to indicate the importance of experience.
So there would be benefit for hitters (including those not slumping) to spend some time in the bullpen tracking pitches. This would be in addition to normal BP and hitting drills. Could be beneficial in cold weather areas where there is some pitching indoors, but can't hit due to lack of space.
Never thought of that before. I think I'm going to float this by son's fall coaches to bring to H.S. coaching staff. Currently, team is in cages two days a week, with third day for pitchers.
You said that when you had a hitter who was struggling you put him in the bullpen and have him track pitches. You go on to indicate the importance of experience.
So there would be benefit for hitters (including those not slumping) to spend some time in the bullpen tracking pitches. This would be in addition to normal BP and hitting drills. Could be beneficial in cold weather areas where there is some pitching indoors, but can't hit due to lack of space.
Never thought of that before. I think I'm going to float this by son's fall coaches to bring to H.S. coaching staff. Currently, team is in cages two days a week, with third day for pitchers.
quote:I can't answer until I know what this stuff is.
Torque ...two objects that turn in the opposite direction connected by a mid piece that is capable of storing elastic energy
How do you generate power?
Hitting up the middle can be used to teach good coil/uncoil or load/unload sequencing that is the equivalent of learning to load and unload well in golf by hitting from inside/out to cure slice,slice usually being caused by club being swung "over the top" or outside-in ("hitting around ball") which is associated with "rushing" or interruption of coil/uncoil of trunk.
be careful in going to the wide stance that you don't end up suppressing the "positive move".
beware what bb calls the "dead hands no stride" where you stamp out the positive move and the upper body load.
evidence from golf suggests to me that the quick hitting swing requires arms loading in a different plane from the shoulders (Lau knob pull,Epstein work elbow up a little during drop and tilt).
in golf,there are 2 distinct succesful patterns, one where the arms load in a plane higher than the shoulders (2 plane load) and one where the arms load in the same plane as shoulders (1 plane load). The latter swing is fine for golf,but lacks quickness and does not fit with the adjustment mechanisms (up/down/in/out) necessary in hitting.1 plane golf is like dead hands/no-stride hitting.
also in golf,even though the VAST majority of players are N0-stride,there still needs to be a weight shift/carry/positive move, but less so in the one plane load pattern. Same applies to hitting - this is the same idea as the advice I mentioned from Lau which is that the weight must go forward right(carry/shift/hip cok)/enough to enable pulling the knob, both of which he considers absolutes to avoid the poisons of "back foot" and "2 piece" hitting.
be careful in going to the wide stance that you don't end up suppressing the "positive move".
beware what bb calls the "dead hands no stride" where you stamp out the positive move and the upper body load.
evidence from golf suggests to me that the quick hitting swing requires arms loading in a different plane from the shoulders (Lau knob pull,Epstein work elbow up a little during drop and tilt).
in golf,there are 2 distinct succesful patterns, one where the arms load in a plane higher than the shoulders (2 plane load) and one where the arms load in the same plane as shoulders (1 plane load). The latter swing is fine for golf,but lacks quickness and does not fit with the adjustment mechanisms (up/down/in/out) necessary in hitting.1 plane golf is like dead hands/no-stride hitting.
also in golf,even though the VAST majority of players are N0-stride,there still needs to be a weight shift/carry/positive move, but less so in the one plane load pattern. Same applies to hitting - this is the same idea as the advice I mentioned from Lau which is that the weight must go forward right(carry/shift/hip cok)/enough to enable pulling the knob, both of which he considers absolutes to avoid the poisons of "back foot" and "2 piece" hitting.
Linear you will probably know this one the best. In an effort to learn a little more about *****'s ideas, can you tell me some of the major league players that he has taught or continues to work with. I would like to watch some of his work in action to see how it plays out. THanks.
None of us coaching or teaching should minimize vision practice. PG made great points about tracking. On our high school teams, all bp includes track-4, tracking 4 pitches which coincides with bunting-4 and situational hitting in groups of 4. When a hitter is standing around waiting his turn in the cage, and pitchers are doing pen work, we have the hitter stand and in and track. They can all use more of this and it helps them relax in the box and really works with zone hitting.
Coachric
Coachric
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
Thanks for the definition of torque. When you define these I'll answer.
If I was in a Tee hitting contest I would pay attention to golf more than I do.
As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.
One in particular......the X factor. It does not exist in the high level baseball swing.
As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.
One in particular......the X factor. It does not exist in the high level baseball swing.
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Linear you will probably know this one the best. In an effort to learn a little more about *****'s ideas, can you tell me some of the major league players that he has taught or continues to work with. I would like to watch some of his work in action to see how it plays out. THanks.
Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez.
Wow - He taught those guys how to hit a baseball?
Never knew that.
Never knew that.
Just to throw another log on the fire. Apparently those players thought so much, that none of them offered a testamonial? Bonds=cheater, Pujols, and Ramirez were studs since high school. Not saying I disagree with all of the teachings, just that I would like to see a little more evidence. I think it is one thing to observe and state what good hitters do. It is another to help each player reach their potential using an individualized aproach. I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel. The key is to learn something from everything you come across but never fall so in love with something that you can't see other methods.
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel.
Refreshing (and somewhat of a relief) to see that someone agrees with me - despite my lack of "pedigree". LOL
quote:One in particular......the X factor. It does not exist in the high level baseball swing.
What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.
In the quickswing it doesn't exist your right.
You don't need it to slap hit a softball 110 feet.
Linear...says
As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.
Who threw that 100 mph that you had to react to?
As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.
Who threw that 100 mph that you had to react to?
xfactor exists in my opinion as much as THT (active as well as inertial/passive).
xfactor is perhaps easier to measure as with skilltechnologies skillcheck motionanalysis for example.
it is also important to distinguish between xfactor (presence/degree of separation which everyone knows occurs) vs "xfactor stretch" which denotes a dynamic additional stretch before reversal which among other things harnesses elastic tissue properties,etc for efficient reversal/quick unloading. The "N" word might be "cusp".
here is an old thread addressed to teacherman and "N" ("O'really")that gives examples of the measurements:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html
and a definition of xfactor stretch which can be measured in hitting as well as golf:
http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/XFactorStretch1.htm
xfactor is perhaps easier to measure as with skilltechnologies skillcheck motionanalysis for example.
it is also important to distinguish between xfactor (presence/degree of separation which everyone knows occurs) vs "xfactor stretch" which denotes a dynamic additional stretch before reversal which among other things harnesses elastic tissue properties,etc for efficient reversal/quick unloading. The "N" word might be "cusp".
here is an old thread addressed to teacherman and "N" ("O'really")that gives examples of the measurements:
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/10685.html
and a definition of xfactor stretch which can be measured in hitting as well as golf:
http://www.advancedmotionmeasurement.com/XFactorStretch1.htm
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Linear...says
As long as I have to react to a ball coming at me at up to 100mph, I'll pass on most all golf analogies.
Who threw that 100 mph that you had to react to?
We know two people it wasn't.
Swingbuster and Tom Guerry.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Wow - He taught those guys how to hit a baseball?
Never knew that.
Oh, did he want the truth? You guys accept everything but the truth from everyone else? I figured I'd join in.
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Just to throw another log on the fire. Apparently those players thought so much, that none of them offered a testamonial? Bonds=cheater, Pujols, and Ramirez were studs since high school. Not saying I disagree with all of the teachings, just that I would like to see a little more evidence. I think it is one thing to observe and state what good hitters do. It is another to help each player reach their potential using an individualized aproach. I think that one of the most important points that has been brought up is that many of the things that are being stated are things that have been around for many many years with a few refinements. I do not believe in buzz-words but rather what the words are saying. Sometimes they can offer new ideas that refine older ones other times they take credit for reinventing the wheel. The key is to learn something from everything you come across but never fall so in love with something that you can't see other methods.
Don't forget the religion factor.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
xfactor exists in my opinion as much as THT ...
As close to the truth as you've ever been.
Linear,
I think it is just awesome that he taught Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Manny Ramirez how to hit.
That is just wild - as Johnny Carson used to say.
I think it is just awesome that he taught Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Manny Ramirez how to hit.
That is just wild - as Johnny Carson used to say.
Linear - If you tell me he also taught Ted Williams and Willie Mays how to hit - I am just gonna freak.
LOL
LOL
quote:What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.
What is BBScout talking about with the hips 4-5 frames ahead of shoulders.
Teflon Linear...what does Scout mean?
quote:The guy who had the least movement...up,down, backward or forward was Bonds. His head never left the grid and had "almost no movement".
His head may be free to move, but it moves less than any of the other top hitters.
Bbscout, almost no movement????????.......You mean like a little bit pregnant?......
The head moves, plain and simple......Head movement is a good thing......
quote:Bluedog,
Please tell us how you would teach a young hitter to utilize vision for the best results. Or do you believe vision is not that important?
PGStaff, vision is important.......But, greatly misunderstood by most Coaches.......
Focal vision, looking directly at the ball, is not what should be taught......However, most Coaches do teach this......I say, what a mistake.....
quote:Why is head movement a good thing?
Because, a hitter cannot create chaos wihout head movement......
Create "chaos"?
Is this yet another new term for the New Year?
Is this yet another new term for the New Year?
Blue, how does more head movement give you better results? I must know.
I guess Bonds is in a lot of trouble then since he moves his head.
I guess Bonds is in a lot of trouble then since he moves his head.
quote:Create "chaos"?
Nobody answers my simplest questions ususally but I will try anyway.
What is "chaos" as you reference it to the baseball swing?
quote:nice answer, but Bonds can create a lot more chaos than Green.
Bbscout, I really don't think either one of us knows just how much chaos Bonds, or Green creates.........Other than to say alot.....
It's not just about creating chaos......It's also about controlling the chaos once it has been created.......Who can do this better?....Bonds....
quote:If you move your eyes in the direction the car is moving you can see it very well for a longer period of time.............it’s called TRACKING.
PGStaff, I left some of what you said out, but the integrity of what you said has not been compromised.....
The problem I have with "tracking" is twofold.......Coaches teach to track the ball all the way in.....This is wrong, as pitch recognition needs to happen very quickly....Also, the head has a tendency to move with the eyes when "tracking" is taught.........And, IMO, the head should never pivot toward the catcher.....If it does, swing technique will be affected......A hitter's head should always pivot toward the pitcher while swinging............
Hitter's do need to get a quick look at the pitch after it is released.....Then, the eyes should stay in front of the ball and let the peripheral and brain decide the speed.....And, this happens much more quickly than most Caoches understand.....There is pitch recognition time (by the eyes), brain information processing time (by the brain), decision time (by the brain), and actual swinging time (by the body) involved in half a second or less......The technique of "tracking" involves time that just isn't available to a hitter........
And, on top of all that, amateur hitters are taught to balance to the ground, keep the head still, and find the swing plane with the hands and arms, which is a slow process.......Add "tracking to the mix, and..........
I see Mankin's at it again. He moved the quickness thread to the top.
He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.
Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.
BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound.
I expected no different because I see him do it all the time off the swing-a-way. I hit off it probably 3, maybe 4 times per week. All mine go up the middle.
Maybe the garbage in garbage out theory applies to your guys.
He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.
Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.
BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound.
I expected no different because I see him do it all the time off the swing-a-way. I hit off it probably 3, maybe 4 times per week. All mine go up the middle.
Maybe the garbage in garbage out theory applies to your guys.
I think one thing that is mistaken for turning the head/following the ball in (bad idea as mentioned by bdog and emphasized by Epstein among others) is the "chin tuck" necessary to stabilize the spine/axis during rapid acceleration of the bathead.
quote:He's been given the answer by at least 3 people I know of. Wonder why he doesn't post 'em.
Nice guy....very "religious".......no clue.
BTW buster.....first try......no prior knowledge.....off the Tee.....I told my son swing as quick as you can.......line drive over the mound
Mankin has no clue and your facing 100 mph pitches and your son hit all the tee balls over the mound. I knew that.........
Why don't you guys post the answers here....it is not censored as to content as evidenced by your presence here still. We would be more fair with what you say than any review of all your post in this thread.
Some of these guys that come here don't know much and are learning and your " go back to the drawing board you idiot" post while consistent are not helpful.
Whats your motivation?
You may not like what I post, but when I quote you I do so accurately. Try it. It'll make you look honest even if people disagree with you.
And, when you define the things I asked, I'll answer you. I said I would. I will.
My stuff stands up.
And, when you define the things I asked, I'll answer you. I said I would. I will.
My stuff stands up.
Ok...this is cool and amazing feel....
"LOOP AND HAMMER" DRILL. This drill teaches the hands to move before the bat barrel moves. Start with the hands pointing the bat head toward second base...
this part is a bad discription of what happens but I will include it so completeness
...flick the hands through the hitting zone without letting the bat barrel drop below the hands, then "hammer" an imaginary ball out in front of the body.
You will see where, how and when hand torque CAN enter the swing. If you have never felt hand torque your missing an interesting experience. If you no stride and precock( and I coached this for years) you have never felt this
You can see this in Bagwells, Ruths and Piazza swings.
Your front foot will get down at the right time...automatic.
Anybody...try it. There is no slack at launch.
"LOOP AND HAMMER" DRILL. This drill teaches the hands to move before the bat barrel moves. Start with the hands pointing the bat head toward second base...
this part is a bad discription of what happens but I will include it so completeness
...flick the hands through the hitting zone without letting the bat barrel drop below the hands, then "hammer" an imaginary ball out in front of the body.
You will see where, how and when hand torque CAN enter the swing. If you have never felt hand torque your missing an interesting experience. If you no stride and precock( and I coached this for years) you have never felt this
You can see this in Bagwells, Ruths and Piazza swings.
Your front foot will get down at the right time...automatic.
Anybody...try it. There is no slack at launch.
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
Still waiting
quote:Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
The turning of the lower body or the upper body such that the line of the hips is different from the line of the shoulders applying an opposite force in the midsection
Or bend at the waist / unbend LEVER . Implies hinge/ unhinge in the sense of up and down movement or change of the spine angle from more bend to less
Any other energy sources ? Bat knob TORQUE
Any action that applies a pull force with one hand and a push force with the other; . The center of the rotation would be between the hands. These forces applied in opposite directions move the barrel opposite of the bottom hand pull.
I know these are all wrong.......ZZZZZZZZZZZ
quote:Blue, how does more head movement give you better results? I must know.
MR.3000, I have no idea.....Perhaps you should ask whoever might have said such a thing....
If you think that's what I said, well, read again......
quote:Originally posted by swingbuster:
[QUOTE]Hands back / foot open torque? TURN TORQUE
The turning of the lower body or the upper body such that the line of the hips is different from the line of the shoulders applying an opposite force in the midsection
And.....the foot's role in this please.
I mean, you call it hand's back / foot open torque TURN TORQUE.
Bluedog,
"Chaos" - How cool is that new term?
I love it. LOL
"Chaos" - How cool is that new term?
I love it. LOL
quote:And.....the foot's role in this please.
I mean, you call it hand's back / foot open torque TURN TORQUE.
In my teaching model my lead leg interupts( hopefully)the load/ coil as it rotates into plant. At plant I would like to feel the hips work to clear creating a belly up action in the middle. If the hips don't clear the hands, disconnection can occur and you are going to try to hit over the top of them. Top hand over 3B
There is a relationship ( for me) about where the hands( shoulder line) are in relation to the lead toe( hip line) as anatomical markers from a top view. You can have no separation, too much or the right amount. The right amount is what you can create and capture and apply.
I have a hard time seeing how the hips can be as active quickly with a closed off front foot....but I think I will know soon
As a side bar..The problem with one Epstein drill was the deltoid drill did not put the shoulders back and connection occurred to far into the hip turn phase. IOWs we had to turn past natural to connect. Again a drill and one can experience a new feel
At true launch... my model and yours from my point of view ( not yours) could be indentical. But , I really don't know what you do
Well, after 652 responses, this topic is slowing down. Here are some other general thoughts that might get us going:
Some things I know:
- Early Timing! You have to be ready to hit BEFORE YOU STEP INTO THE BOX.
- Stride or no stride? WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE?
- Elbows – relaxed AND natural! (Think we've covered that some.)
- Cookie Cutter Hitters? Is there a degree of this?
- Bat past the ear at 45 degrees. (That's were we have it. You?)
- Avoid the “collapsed back leg!”
- Some form of negative rotation based upon a point in the pitcher’s windup/release.
- Follow through – belly button at pitcher, butt over the heel but on balance!
- Release or no release? (Do you coach it?)
Some things I know:
- It is hard to develop timing for some hitters even if they are athletic enough to get to those points in the swing at the right time. (Example - perhaps they need eye care.)
- Stride is very difficult to do in hitting sequence. It should be so easy. Stride is one of those things that if you are thinking about it while at the plate, you're done.
- We sometimes have hitters collapse their back leg or other hitting flaws because of too many reps at a station. Hitting for a purpose is great but remember the number of reps CAN cause fatigue and fatigue could cause flaws.
- We need more reps off of live arm. Doesn't every program want that?
- You must indoctrinate players into your hitting philosophy. This can be achieved through handouts and certainly through coaching. If you don't coach it and discuss it, stay off of the kid for doing something other than your philosophy. JMHO!
quote:Well, after 652 responses, this topic is slowing down.
Tell me it ain't so.
quote:Cookie Cutter Hitters? Is there a degree of this?
Coach, this is, for me, an interesting question for discussion..........
I really don't subscribe to the hitting absolutes type of theory......Are there absolutes?.......Well, I guess so......But, IMO, the absolutes are not abstract........
Examples:.....Do the hands/arms need to load at a certain height location?.......My answer is, they need to connect to the shoulder by way of scapula load and shouldn't be high.......Will that ideal height location be different in some hitters?....Probably so.......
Should the stride be long or short?.......My answer is, the stride should accomplish it's goal, which is to supply momentum......Can I no-stride if I supply enough momentum doing so?.......Can I stride either long or short if it works for me?.....My answer to both, is, of course, as long as your momentum is adequate..............
When do I start the stride?.....My answer is, when you need to.......The load/unload process should be as seamless as possible, IMO.......
I teach hitters to "feel" what they need to feel by way of drills and dry swinging.....THEY must work hard to transfer this "feel" from their practice, to their practice swings, and then on to their game swings........I can't do this for them......
Technique such as finding ideal load patterns/locations, seamless load/unloads, is something that is a continual learning and perfecting process that will go on as long as they play baseball.....There is no backing off of the hard work they must do that is required to learn the most efficient way for them to swing a bat.....IMO, a hitter is never good enough.......There is no batting average, number of homeruns, or any other stat that is acceptable enough to say, I have arrived......By the same token, there is no technique good enough to say, I've found the Holy Grail of hitting.....The search for better is always in play.......I tell my hitters, when I find a better way, you'll be the first to know......
quote:It is hard to develop timing for some hitters even if they are athletic enough to get to those points in the swing at the right time. (Example - perhaps they need eye care.)
Coach, FWIW, I wear trifocals....My vision is not so good......I still actively hit every now and then because I should since I teach hitting and trial and error on myself.......I have no problem seeing the ball....My point is, I believe vision is not the problem in almost all cases......
IMO, timing is an event of the brain and cannot/shouldn't be taught.....I don't, like most do, believe the purpose of the stride is for timimg......The key to timing, I believe, is in swing quickness......The brain knows when to begin the forward swing......However, if the body isn't quick enough to get the bat around to the ball, the hitter has a technique problem, IMO.....It could be slack in the unloading process, improper loading, improper posture, or something else....JMO, but, looking at vision and timing of the stride for a, not getting the bat around to the ball in time problem, will keep a Coach from solving the real problem.....Alot like an infielder who has a glove/hand ball transfer problem.....The problem is more than likely in the body being loaded in time to throw process, not the glove/hand transfer......As Teacherman pointed out some time ago......
Donny-
That is an excellent description "late connection".
Without a good loading arm action,the hands can not stay back and the upper and lower limbs can not synchronize so that the hips and torso do not overturn. Same as spinning or flying open in throwing-when the hands are no longer staying back enough with arm action assisting in keeping the backside back enough when connection happens.
You want late connection in terms of time/waiting on the ball as long as possible,but with body not having overrotated in spite of staying back longer.
Some described this quick swing that allows waiting as long as possible as having "early batspeed" - no wonder it is so confusing to talk about. Late vs early need to be defined including how this relates to spatial as well as temporal aspects of the swing.Also nice to define launch,lag,connection,etc.
I agree with the improved quickness possible in Hands free as opposed to bat on deltoid stage of learning (Epstein) also illustrated in the brett tee vs game swing clips from bbscout in the other thread.
That is an excellent description "late connection".
Without a good loading arm action,the hands can not stay back and the upper and lower limbs can not synchronize so that the hips and torso do not overturn. Same as spinning or flying open in throwing-when the hands are no longer staying back enough with arm action assisting in keeping the backside back enough when connection happens.
You want late connection in terms of time/waiting on the ball as long as possible,but with body not having overrotated in spite of staying back longer.
Some described this quick swing that allows waiting as long as possible as having "early batspeed" - no wonder it is so confusing to talk about. Late vs early need to be defined including how this relates to spatial as well as temporal aspects of the swing.Also nice to define launch,lag,connection,etc.
I agree with the improved quickness possible in Hands free as opposed to bat on deltoid stage of learning (Epstein) also illustrated in the brett tee vs game swing clips from bbscout in the other thread.
CoachB25, another example of why I believe absolutes are not abstract and can change from day to day and may be an absolute for one hitter, but not another....
This was recently talked about.....Should a hitter stride with an open front foot or a closed front foot?......Before deciding this, the hitter must first answer two questions.......Do you understand the role of the front leg in the swing?.....And, can you use your front leg properly in your swing?.........If the answer is "no" to either question, it is an absolute that the hitter should stride with a closed front foot until he understands how to, and can, use his front leg properly, IMO.......When he understands and knows how to use his front leg properly, it is no longer an absolute, and doesn't matter if he strides with an open or closed front foot.....
On a side note.......Some here talk about how myself, and a few others, listen to so-called gurus and can't think for ourselves.....If someone opens your thoughts to possibilities and you don't prove or disprove these possibilities for yourself, shame on you.....Personally, I search out those who are more knowledgeable than me.....When I find them, I'm ready to learn......
This was recently talked about.....Should a hitter stride with an open front foot or a closed front foot?......Before deciding this, the hitter must first answer two questions.......Do you understand the role of the front leg in the swing?.....And, can you use your front leg properly in your swing?.........If the answer is "no" to either question, it is an absolute that the hitter should stride with a closed front foot until he understands how to, and can, use his front leg properly, IMO.......When he understands and knows how to use his front leg properly, it is no longer an absolute, and doesn't matter if he strides with an open or closed front foot.....
On a side note.......Some here talk about how myself, and a few others, listen to so-called gurus and can't think for ourselves.....If someone opens your thoughts to possibilities and you don't prove or disprove these possibilities for yourself, shame on you.....Personally, I search out those who are more knowledgeable than me.....When I find them, I'm ready to learn......
CoachB25, you've laid out a great case for hitting drills and training. I can always tell when I read or meet a successful coach. As for this incredibly long post, I am amazed at the diatribe of opinions and terms. Scapula load is one I won't use in the near future. There is no holy grail in hitting, just sound practices that work. Some hitters will need more work than others, but they definitely don't need more fancy terminology and confusing statements. Some of us know that an open foot does not work and we know why. Trying to convince theorists why it doesn't work may require a larger site with more post capability. If you're one of those searching for hitting perfection, good luck. Hard work, proven drills, help from new technology, listening to the great teachers are all things that will bring you success when you are teaching young hitters. I would like to think that this post will end soon, but probably not. I was dumb enough to continue here, so feel free.
Coachric
Coachric
Blue Dog
I think we all do as you suggest--search out those who know more than we do--the problem is that on line that fact is difficult to decipher--there is so much regurgitation of " gurus stuff" it is difficult to know who is real and who isn't especially when many refuse to talk about their success, if in fact such success any exists.
I will listen to a Gary Ward talk on hitting, to name one, before anyone on a website, no offense to those who actually know what they are doing and have seen results of their ability. It diesnt mean I will accept what he says but I will listen to him.
Before I listen to what is said on any pitching site I will listen to Coach Bill Thurston because I know what his track record is and have seen the results.
Bottom line: anyone can talk theory, even develop their own but for me unless I see results I wont subscribe to it---real facts are what count
Winning coaches who teach and instruct at clinics are what it is all about for me-- if their players are successful then they are doing something right--not to anyone has to be a coach to be a instructor because there are many excellent intructors who do not coach but their students are successful
It is not a matter of a closed mind it is a matter of knowing who the heck is talking and what his track record is and what his results have been
I think we all do as you suggest--search out those who know more than we do--the problem is that on line that fact is difficult to decipher--there is so much regurgitation of " gurus stuff" it is difficult to know who is real and who isn't especially when many refuse to talk about their success, if in fact such success any exists.
I will listen to a Gary Ward talk on hitting, to name one, before anyone on a website, no offense to those who actually know what they are doing and have seen results of their ability. It diesnt mean I will accept what he says but I will listen to him.
Before I listen to what is said on any pitching site I will listen to Coach Bill Thurston because I know what his track record is and have seen the results.
Bottom line: anyone can talk theory, even develop their own but for me unless I see results I wont subscribe to it---real facts are what count
Winning coaches who teach and instruct at clinics are what it is all about for me-- if their players are successful then they are doing something right--not to anyone has to be a coach to be a instructor because there are many excellent intructors who do not coach but their students are successful
It is not a matter of a closed mind it is a matter of knowing who the heck is talking and what his track record is and what his results have been
quote:Some of us know that an open foot does not work and we know why.
Coachric, you have an amazing talent for seeing only what you want to see.......Do you explain video of Ted Williams hitting as a mirage?.....
As for scapula load?.......I'm fairly certain you don't understand what it is, and does, for a hitter.....So, I agree that YOU should not attempt to teach it......
TRhit, have you ever listened to someone, trial and errored what they said, then made a decision as to the validity of their knowledge?.......
Should the College experience teach a student definite life theory or how to open their mind to forming their own theory?.....
Should the College experience teach a student definite life theory or how to open their mind to forming their own theory?.....
quote:There is no holy grail in hitting, just sound practices that work.
Coachric, here is a translation of what you are saying.......There is no holy grail in hitting, just my way......
Starting the loading process WITH THE LEAD ELBOW UP IN THE PITCH PLANE can restrict the loading even if you do/ try the so called "scap load". That is one issue with precocked and bat in 45 slot.
Bats in the 45 slot have the lead elbow up in the pitch plane at set up. Heavy muscled shoulders bind and the hands don't get hidden at times. It takes a pronounced hip coil to move these hands inside.GONZALEZ.
I do believe in one absolutes...YOU MUST COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH TO GET THE BARREL OUT. MOST KIDS HAVE NEVER COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH IN THEIR LIFE> MOST NEVER WILL
The reason the hands must get inside is so the barrel can get out in the zone. The barrel can be like the " ball on rope" feel with an inside out path but without it they cannot experience that.... without it you can count on "tugging the knob" / dragging the bat.
Bats in the 45 slot have the lead elbow up in the pitch plane at set up. Heavy muscled shoulders bind and the hands don't get hidden at times. It takes a pronounced hip coil to move these hands inside.GONZALEZ.
I do believe in one absolutes...YOU MUST COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH TO GET THE BARREL OUT. MOST KIDS HAVE NEVER COME FROM AN INSIDE PATH IN THEIR LIFE> MOST NEVER WILL
The reason the hands must get inside is so the barrel can get out in the zone. The barrel can be like the " ball on rope" feel with an inside out path but without it they cannot experience that.... without it you can count on "tugging the knob" / dragging the bat.
Bluedog
yes I have and it has nothing to do with college or no college--it has to do with knowing who you should listen to-- and I do not think you or linear are ones that I should listen to--my bad if that is the way it is sorry
As for the "holy grail" Linear speaks of I thought both you and he found it on your gurus site>
yes I have and it has nothing to do with college or no college--it has to do with knowing who you should listen to-- and I do not think you or linear are ones that I should listen to--my bad if that is the way it is sorry
As for the "holy grail" Linear speaks of I thought both you and he found it on your gurus site>
{Deleted by moderator}
Linear
Such a gentleman--again you answer things with your spin and condescending attitude
Do you speak to your paying customers in such a tone?
as for the OLD MAN--I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know but I dont go around calling people names as you do.
Open your mind to the real world and you might learn something.
You are such a fine person-- do you get along with the parents of the players you are supposedly teachin.
Still cannot get over the fact that you live in the same region and you don't know who Coach Pile is--that sure says alot for your knowledge of what happens in your region
Such a gentleman--again you answer things with your spin and condescending attitude
Do you speak to your paying customers in such a tone?
as for the OLD MAN--I have probably forgotten more than you will ever know but I dont go around calling people names as you do.
Open your mind to the real world and you might learn something.
You are such a fine person-- do you get along with the parents of the players you are supposedly teachin.
Still cannot get over the fact that you live in the same region and you don't know who Coach Pile is--that sure says alot for your knowledge of what happens in your region
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
...Do you speak to your paying customers in such a tone?
No, but I don't miss too many opportunities to tell someone who knows nothing but acts like he does how much of an idiot he is.
That's why I talk to you so much.
quote:--it has to do with knowing who you should listen to--
TRhit, I will translate the above for you....You should listen to people who have the same belief system as you.....
It's not easy to say, I no longer believe what I have always taught is the best way.....My mind has been opened up to the fact that MLB hitters don't do what I have always believed and taught.....Some Coaches can do it, but most can't.....
Linear/Teacherman
There you go wuith the names again--sorts of says a lot about you
Bluedog--I dont need you to translate anything for me because you translate what you want to have others belive you said
The both of you never answer questions just accuse and ask questions---you both have yet to prove anything to me--I can read it all on THAT OTHER SITE if I ever want to
I am just sorry that I cannot agree that you both know as much as you claim you do--the way you guys degrade successful players and coaches one would think you would be teaching big league players and coaches how do do it the right way, I mean your way.
How can the MLB hitters be so good if they don't do it your way and they are, in your mind doing it all wrong. You mean to tell me that they are making millions and they dont know what they are doing?
There you go wuith the names again--sorts of says a lot about you
Bluedog--I dont need you to translate anything for me because you translate what you want to have others belive you said
The both of you never answer questions just accuse and ask questions---you both have yet to prove anything to me--I can read it all on THAT OTHER SITE if I ever want to
I am just sorry that I cannot agree that you both know as much as you claim you do--the way you guys degrade successful players and coaches one would think you would be teaching big league players and coaches how do do it the right way, I mean your way.
How can the MLB hitters be so good if they don't do it your way and they are, in your mind doing it all wrong. You mean to tell me that they are making millions and they dont know what they are doing?
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
...How can the MLB hitters be so good if they don't do it your way...
Duh! They do exactly what we claim.
Keep talking so everyone will eventually know what we already do.
Bluedog, I really appreciate those responses.
The eyes statement came, as you may remember, from a post a few years ago I made about a player that was nails when doing drills and couldn't hit a lick when the ball came 60'6". Well, he had some type of depth problem in his vision. At that time, we discussed several opinions about eyes and tracking.
One of these days, I'm going to make it to the "Sunny South." My treat and we will discuss hitting. Of course, I'm the old dog and you know about the new tricks. I'm betting I'd have a great time.
This thread really does have a great amount of diversity in it. I think there is something for everyone to think about. While we don't all get along, I wanted to milk it for all it's worth. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. LOL!
The eyes statement came, as you may remember, from a post a few years ago I made about a player that was nails when doing drills and couldn't hit a lick when the ball came 60'6". Well, he had some type of depth problem in his vision. At that time, we discussed several opinions about eyes and tracking.
One of these days, I'm going to make it to the "Sunny South." My treat and we will discuss hitting. Of course, I'm the old dog and you know about the new tricks. I'm betting I'd have a great time.
This thread really does have a great amount of diversity in it. I think there is something for everyone to think about. While we don't all get along, I wanted to milk it for all it's worth. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. LOL!
This thread does go on and on. That's okay. Other than having to wade through a fair amount of garbage, it's fun.
Without choosing sides, I suggest that what matters is the message. The messenger is much less important. A respected messenger might cause you to spend more time considering the message, but it is still the message that counts. Not considering the message because you don't like the messenger means that you will miss many good ideas. Evaluate the message first and foremost.
Education is learning how to sift through information to find that which matters. It doesn't matter if we're discussing quantum physics or hitting or how to grow flowers. Particularly in this day and age, information floods us everyday. If you don't have the ability to sift through it, you aren't educated. The fun part is that each of us gets to decide what is important and significant. The fact that I might decide some item of information is important, an item that you consider garbage, is what makes life interesting. And a different perception of what is important is not a reason to name call or disparage or put down or become offended or mad. Cherish the differences. How boring life would be if we were all the same.
Without choosing sides, I suggest that what matters is the message. The messenger is much less important. A respected messenger might cause you to spend more time considering the message, but it is still the message that counts. Not considering the message because you don't like the messenger means that you will miss many good ideas. Evaluate the message first and foremost.
Education is learning how to sift through information to find that which matters. It doesn't matter if we're discussing quantum physics or hitting or how to grow flowers. Particularly in this day and age, information floods us everyday. If you don't have the ability to sift through it, you aren't educated. The fun part is that each of us gets to decide what is important and significant. The fact that I might decide some item of information is important, an item that you consider garbage, is what makes life interesting. And a different perception of what is important is not a reason to name call or disparage or put down or become offended or mad. Cherish the differences. How boring life would be if we were all the same.
quote:The fact that I might decide some item of information is important, an item that you consider garbage, is what makes life interesting.
I appreciate you open approach.....it will pay off. I am glad I did not stop testing. To only have one model you trust means you will have to clone your hitters
Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center. You see, it's the proper use of the center that allows hitters to be different elsewhere.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Sheffield, Bonds and Tejada to have the arm action they have....or Molitor, McGwire, and Edmonds to have the arm action they don't have.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Craig Counsel to do what he does, Mo Vaughn to do what he does, or Yaz to do what he did.
Try as you may, the cookie cutter label doesn't fit.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Sheffield, Bonds and Tejada to have the arm action they have....or Molitor, McGwire, and Edmonds to have the arm action they don't have.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Craig Counsel to do what he does, Mo Vaughn to do what he does, or Yaz to do what he did.
Try as you may, the cookie cutter label doesn't fit.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center. You see, it's the proper use of the center that allows hitters to be different elsewhere.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Sheffield, Bonds and Tejada to have the arm action they have....or Molitor, McGwire, and Edmonds to have the arm action they don't have.
It's the proper use of the center that allows Craig Counsel to do what he does, Mo Vaughn to do what he does, or Yaz to do what he did.
Try as you may, the cookie cutter label doesn't fit.
How about that Vince Young Linear?
Linear
"Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center".
Being a physics fundamentalist you should know what center infers. You must differentiate what happens there from how it occurs there and there is more to the later's story
The true center of anything can have force applied to it or stored elastically but cannot generate it. What you might feel happening in the center is happeing TO IT.
If this is not center for you then pick a new word as the anatomy and the action can't match.
That is why your one liners and " if you only knew stuff is so ineffective.
Do you tell your players " if you only knew how to use your center you could play " and then go home. You do that here everyday. Those are the eyes we see you through and we assume there is more.
I don't consider my understanding of the core weak
I do equally consider your lack of understanding of hand torque and its role at swing initiation to be non existant and sadly all because of your fear of Ny-man.
Ny-man nome's worst fear is for somebody in set-pro to report to the master that there is a lack of submission from smurfdom. I believe communism fell with the Berlin wall in 1990.
Hand torque is a negative then positive move just like hip coil, scap load. Ignoring it is laughable and the reason the middle doesn't work for many. It is a part of the system clearly used by the greatest hitters and yes many amateurs. IF YOU TOOK HAND TORQUE AT SWING INITIATION AWAY MANY MLB PLAYERS COULD NOT HIT A LICK. They are very capable of using it.
WHy you think they can scap load and hip coil and cannot hand torque will remain a mystery explained only by " you don't understand it"
Rear scap loading helps get the hands on an inside out path. If you don't believe in a CHP then you are lost. It stretches and connects the lead shoulder.
Hand torque primes the flexors of the forearm and it is another negative move storing energy in the system early in the preswing.
The fact that they prime better , out of plane, helps the core. The fact that tey prime better out of plane, gets the front foot down, limits and counter balances the stride.
Your missing the whole sequence of MLB swing that you guys once promoted. Why the shift to glorified slap hitting?
Primed forearms do not make you slower.
"Typical answer from those who don't understand how to use the center".
Being a physics fundamentalist you should know what center infers. You must differentiate what happens there from how it occurs there and there is more to the later's story
The true center of anything can have force applied to it or stored elastically but cannot generate it. What you might feel happening in the center is happeing TO IT.
If this is not center for you then pick a new word as the anatomy and the action can't match.
That is why your one liners and " if you only knew stuff is so ineffective.
Do you tell your players " if you only knew how to use your center you could play " and then go home. You do that here everyday. Those are the eyes we see you through and we assume there is more.
I don't consider my understanding of the core weak
I do equally consider your lack of understanding of hand torque and its role at swing initiation to be non existant and sadly all because of your fear of Ny-man.
Ny-man nome's worst fear is for somebody in set-pro to report to the master that there is a lack of submission from smurfdom. I believe communism fell with the Berlin wall in 1990.
Hand torque is a negative then positive move just like hip coil, scap load. Ignoring it is laughable and the reason the middle doesn't work for many. It is a part of the system clearly used by the greatest hitters and yes many amateurs. IF YOU TOOK HAND TORQUE AT SWING INITIATION AWAY MANY MLB PLAYERS COULD NOT HIT A LICK. They are very capable of using it.
WHy you think they can scap load and hip coil and cannot hand torque will remain a mystery explained only by " you don't understand it"
Rear scap loading helps get the hands on an inside out path. If you don't believe in a CHP then you are lost. It stretches and connects the lead shoulder.
Hand torque primes the flexors of the forearm and it is another negative move storing energy in the system early in the preswing.
The fact that they prime better , out of plane, helps the core. The fact that tey prime better out of plane, gets the front foot down, limits and counter balances the stride.
Your missing the whole sequence of MLB swing that you guys once promoted. Why the shift to glorified slap hitting?
Primed forearms do not make you slower.
Badger all you want Swingbuster.
I'm not going to tell you how to use the center.
If you have to use your arms to get the center to work you're in left field.
Study up.
I'm not going to tell you how to use the center.
If you have to use your arms to get the center to work you're in left field.
Study up.
quote:Originally posted by darkmoon:
How about that Vince Young Linear?
Great college player.
Will be less than Michael Vick in the pros.....and that makes him marginal.
