HS coach demanding line drives and ground balls

Cobra,

You can search this topic "launch angle" here as it has been discussed at GREAT lengths.  We know that the current MLB trend is to try to elevate - most power hitters find about a 25 degree launch angle optimal.  There are many at that level who purposely try to attain something close to that angle (pitch location allowing) and some who still just try to hit a line drive, swing on plane or focus on squaring and let the launch angle be what it will. 

That said, HS hitters (as you have hinted) are generally far less able to put the ball over the top of the OF's, let alone the fence, so the same approach does not necessarily apply - a hard hit 25-30 degree ball by the average HS player results in something between a routine and long fly out.  There are always exceptions - some HS hitters have good power and timing and can benefit from a similar approach to MLB players. But there is good argument that most would have more success with a line drive or even line drive/ground ball approach.  Other big factors are that the typical HS infield surface and infielder ability is such that it also increases odds of success if the hitter puts the ball in play on the ground.  

So, then, there is the debate... do you instruct a HS hitter for success now or future success?  There are HS coaches in both camps and both have reasonable rationale.  The knee jerk response in the room is to instruct them for the future, what some would say "correctly".  But when you keep in mind that 90% of HS players will never play beyond HS and the HS coach' primary job is to put his team in position to win HS baseball games, it's really not such a lopsided  argument.  

All this said, there are very few these days that actually instruct ground ball intent (again, with exception to maybe a hitter that has excellent speed and bat control but very little power).  Most that I know teach line drive or on plane as a starting point.  FWIW, I'm an "on plane" guy for most hitters for lots of reasons but will adjust depending on the individual.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a huge fan of launch angle. I don't have a problem with hitters using it to generate lift on the ball, I mostly have a problem with hitters taking the launch angle approach and failing. Then not making any adjustments and carrying on with their careers as .240 hitters with a 38% K rate. It is definitely the right approach for some, others not so much. 

That being said, I don't know why he would bench your son after a HR. I don't know why he would have players run after a bad round in the cage. It could be that in the past he's had selfish players doing nothing to try to hit HRs and popping out 17x a game. It could be that he knows the odds of a HS player making an error on a hard hit ground ball or a misplaying a line drive is fairly high. Or it could also just be a HS teacher coaching for a few extra bucks and doesn't really know a ton about baseball outside of what he learned 40 years ago. I would probably say that this guy has a good reason or he's stubborn and a bad coach. 

Don't forget that putting on baseball pants does not mean you know what you're talking about. There are more bad HS coaches than good, knowledgeable baseball guys. I was talking to a parent I knew on the opposing team last year. I asked why they weren't throwing anybody good against us. He said they had nobody, their arms were sore after they all threw 85 pitch bullpens 2 days before. For every guy that does his best to work with players, adapt and adjust to changes in the game, there is another glorified chaperone doing it for a little extra pay on the side. 

2019 had a coach like this, we transferred.

Thanks for the responses. I guess I get it in theory: put the ball on the ground, make defense make a play. But to punish guys for a round of BP on the field (not in the cage, so you can actually see where the ball is going)that includes balls in the gap, and balls over the fence? The coach favors a lineup of guys who slap the ball and struggle getting it out of the infield. It's mind boggling.  

Coach is the boss, you do what he says.  The only choice you have is whether to play for the team.  Once that choice is made, it is his way or the highway.

It is completely irrelevent as to whether or not I think that is poor coaching or out if touch or whatever...

Launch angle is nothing new.  Ted Williams discussed it in his book and there is the diagram of the swing from back in the day describing, what would today be called, launch angle.  Keep hitting the ball hard and getting hits.  That will win the coach over.  I was an AC for a guy who wanted the same thing and I was in charge of hitting.  When we started leaving the yard on a consistent basis and winning at every level, he changed his mind.  

Not being there, not knowing the coach's thoughts and guidelines, we can only guess at possible explanations.  If he's any good, he can see intent in the hitter's swing.  If the hitter is defying his instruction to focus on a round of BP with ground ball intent, for whatever reason, and the hitter clearly is defying that instruction, that would call for some such reaction.  If he isn't any good, well, no sense in trying to figure things out any further.

It's to the point where my son takes BP on the field and just flips the bat at the ball to keep it low cause that's what the coach wants. Oh and he's been playing thru a strained hand a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder. Yea it's been a hell of a year. And by way of background, Coach played D2 in PA in late 90s early 2000s and holds some hitting records for his school. He's a believer in squashing the bug and swinging down at the ball. This HS season can't end soon enough

Cobra, you might be surprised how many MLB hitters can’t accurately describe how they hit.

I'm not a fan of this. I worked with a college hitter from this board (not mentioning names because that could hurt relationships) and he is getting the hit the ball low and other old school messages in contrast to what we worked on (driving the ball). He still is having a fine season but still this is very frustrating to him.

In a weak HS program I can even understand it some although I would never teach it myself. The coach isn't there only to develope the top 3-4 hitters and most hs hitters probably don't have consistent extra base power. They might hit a wind aided homer on a lucky day but mostly hit easy fly outs. For them a low line drive approach  (imo better than a gb approach) would be better.

Imo the best would be if the coach allows the good hitters to do their thing but of course if you have two guys who can hit bombs and 15 who can't it can be hard to give the two guys rights that the others have not and discouraging homers is the easier thing to do.

At the college level however I can't understand such an approach at all and college hitters also should be mature enough to know their role and approach.

In HS there might be a dynamic of little timmy complaining to coach why big bob is allowed to swing for the fence and he isn't because only 1 in 50 fly ball of his leave the yard. In college that shouldn't happen and you shouldn't hold back your best guys for team culture.

In general, I'd say some, shall we say, sometimes questionable "one size fits all" practices/mentalities seem to work in high school, but can be viewed as problematic or even lame to outsiders, or even to players on the same team.

This is one of them. Another is not letting "weaker" hitters swing until they get a strike on them. You know, say the 7, 8, 9 (hitters) don't swing no matter what until they get a strike (or the coach tells them). Or, virtually everyone doing the above to "burn" through a top pitcher with control problems.

Does it work more often than not? Probably. Can it appear totally lame? Sure, especially when the weaker hitters sit on center-cut FBs and start in a 0-1 hole.

Back to hitting. In my experience, true HR hitters in HS are rare so a line drive approach is almost certainly the best approach for the great majority of players. I have seen coaches encourage elevating on really small fields an on really windy days with the wind blowing out. All exceptions.

PABaseball posted:

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a huge fan of launch angle. 

"Launch angle" is just a unit of measure, like mph or spin rate. Somehow the term got turned into shorthand for selling out on every swing which I'm not a fan of either, especially in amateur baseball.

Baseball people are generally stupid. 

The ball is coming in at about 10 degrees downward angle.  Think about that for one second. (That will be one second longer than most 'baseball people' have thought about it in their entire careers).  You MUST swing UPWARD at least 10 degrees just to stay even with the ball.

In other words, swinging up is the best way to PREVENT strikeouts. 

One more thing.  If you swing flat/even or zero degree angle, the MAX distance the ball can travel in the air is 50 feet.  This ball will never hit the grass.  Their are 5 guys in the infield, and 3 in the outfield, which is 2-3 x larger.

This stuff is not rocket science.

Here is the pic that Coach B25 referred to above from Ted Williams' book from almost 50 years ago.  Look at the blue area, and think about which swing is best to prevent strikeouts.

I understand this fully.  While going through the recruiting process and sitting at multiple WWBA's and other PG events, all coaches talked about were the kids who hit ground balls.  You would hear them say look at that downward motion, he really drove it in the ground hard.  Look at his ability to choke up and poke it in the 5-6 hole.   I can't believe that player had the ability to hit a bloop single every at bat. 

That is what college coaches are looking for.  Guys who can hit the ground ball.  Because Chicks dig the grounder. 

That was hard to write.  Every batter is different.  Why would any coach who has a clue punish a kid for hitting a home run?  If you can swing it, swing it.  If you can't bunt.  A good coach has to work with every player differently.  I worked with our high school offseason and we worked on driving balls deep.  We have five guys who have hit home runs so far.  We have one who needs to have somebody teach him how to bunt.  Can fly but can't hit. 

Recently I was discussing the term “swing level” with a lifelong friend. We were on the same Legion team and collegiate summer ball team one year. He was a P/1B in high school and a pitcher in Legion and college. 

I asked him what he thought swing level means. He said he didn’t know. No one had ever explained it to him. He played for a high school coach in the state baseball Hall of Fame and a legendary college coach for two years. No one explained it to him. He figured since pitching was more important to him it didn’t really matter when we played.

I countered a pitcher wants to upset timing and the swing plane so he should have known. No one had ever explained to him swinging level meant on the plane of the pitch which means at an upward angle. 

I learned swing angle from reading The Science of Hitting as a kid. 

PABaseball posted:

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a huge fan of launch angle. I don't have a problem with hitters using it to generate lift on the ball, I mostly have a problem with hitters taking the launch angle approach and failing. Then not making any adjustments and carrying on with their careers as .240 hitters with a 38% K rate. It is definitely the right approach for some, others not so much. 

That being said, I don't know why he would bench your son after a HR. I don't know why he would have players run after a bad round in the cage. It could be that in the past he's had selfish players doing nothing to try to hit HRs and popping out 17x a game. It could be that he knows the odds of a HS player making an error on a hard hit ground ball or a misplaying a line drive is fairly high. Or it could also just be a HS teacher coaching for a few extra bucks and doesn't really know a ton about baseball outside of what he learned 40 years ago. I would probably say that this guy has a good reason or he's stubborn and a bad coach. 

Don't forget that putting on baseball pants does not mean you know what you're talking about. There are more bad HS coaches than good, knowledgeable baseball guys. I was talking to a parent I knew on the opposing team last year. I asked why they weren't throwing anybody good against us. He said they had nobody, their arms were sore after they all threw 85 pitch bullpens 2 days before. For every guy that does his best to work with players, adapt and adjust to changes in the game, there is another glorified chaperone doing it for a little extra pay on the side. 

Saying you're not a fan of launch angle is like saying you're not a fan of "mph" or feet or yards, .  It is a measurement.  Its not a style.  

CoachB25 posted:

Launch angle is nothing new.  Ted Williams discussed it in his book and there is the diagram of the swing from back in the day describing, what would today be called, launch angle.  Keep hitting the ball hard and getting hits.  That will win the coach over.  I was an AC for a guy who wanted the same thing and I was in charge of hitting.  When we started leaving the yard on a consistent basis and winning at every level, he changed his mind.  

Actually the diagram in his book and Williams' comment of swinging "slightly up" regards attack angle, not launch angle specifically. Every ball that is hit, whether the swing is down, level to ground or slightly up, results in a launch angle, including ground balls.

$tinky posted:

PABaseball posted:

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a huge fan of launch angle.

Saying you're not a fan of launch angle is like saying you're not a fan of "mph" or feet or yards, .  It is a measurement.  Its not a style.  

Not quite. The measurement would be in degrees, thats how angles are measured, but I get what you're saying. As MidAtlantic mentioned, it has become baseball slang for the lift the baseball approach, which was what I meant. Every batted ball has a launch angle. 

What I probably should have said is that I'm not a huge fan of hitters going out of their way to try to generate extra lift on the baseball. I just don't think it is executed well enough to be warranted as the right approach. My problem probably lies more with the people who dismiss any other approach at the plate. The "you don't get paid to hit ground balls" approach is all fun and games until you're out of the lineup because the K rate is almost 45%. 

PABaseball posted

 The "you don't get paid to hit ground balls" approach is all fun and games until you're out of the lineup because the K rate is almost 45%. 

I guess you missed the part where an upward swing is LESS likely to K?  Are you saying Ted Williams was wrong?

Ted Williams was NEVER talking about launch angle... This is where people take an idea and run with it, ruin it, then blame the originator (of something completely different) for it.

Ted Williams talked about a slightly up trajectory on the swing plane.  This was so that the bat would be in the path of the pitch at the same degrees as the pitches angle coming in.. if the pitch was coming in at -10 degrees, the swing should be up at 10 degrees to square up and hit the ball hard.  This is known as ATTACK ANGLE not launch angle.

Launch angle is the degree from horizontal that the ball leaves the bat.  If you want a 25 degree launch angle you don't necessarily swing at 25 degrees up.  That's just ridiculous.    Home runs are nothing more than hard hit line drives that were NOT squared up, but rather, hit slightly below the equator of the baseball... in other words, mis-hit in the hitters favor.   A ground ball in this case would be a mis-hit that is not in the hitters favor.  A perfectly hit ball would leave a bat (using the 10 degree example) at 10 degrees for a line drive.

I'm of the opinion that launch angle is not something entirely controllable.  Even at the major league level.   Home runs occur at a 10% rate for the best power hitters.  It stands to reason that their "mistake" rate is probably 20% (some in favor - HR, some not - Ground ball) and another 10% line drive.

As for the high school coach that wants grounders.....   Meh, he probably only cares about winning and doesn't care about his players playing at the next level.  Or, cares more about winning than his players advancing.... Essentially, he's saying that he wants his players to mis-hit the ball NOT in thier favor most of the time, because high school players are more prone to errors and missed grounders, which leads to base runners, more runs and .... wins.

See it all the time.

BobbyBaseball posted:

 

Launch angle is the degree from horizontal that the ball leaves the bat.  If you want a 25 degree launch angle you don't necessarily swing at 25 degrees up.  That's just ridiculous.    Home runs are nothing more than hard hit line drives that were NOT squared up, but rather, hit slightly below the equator of the baseball... in other words, mis-hit in the hitters favor.   A ground ball in this case would be a mis-hit that is not in the hitters favor.  A perfectly hit ball would leave a bat (using the 10 degree example) at 10 degrees for a line drive.

 

You're leaving out a critical component, which is bat speed. No one would have cared about "launch angle" if it wasn't for the huge increase in big swing-and-miss hacks in all counts, and the accompanying increased K-rates. A ball hit with a 25 degree launch angle with an exit velocity of 80 is only going to travel about 270'. The biggest change has been so many guys selling out on every swing. That means less bat control, and more strike outs... but better run production than just putting the ball in play... in professional baseball.

My 2019 has dealt with this a bit.  He plays at a Powerhouse in the southwest, where they reload every year (last year there were 6 D1 kids and a 2nd round draft pick).  Frankly, the coach doesn't need to do much to win due to the talent in the region.

My 2019 had no meaningful varsity experience as a Jr.  He runs a 6.59 60 (baseball factory), threw 88 from the OF (PBR) and has a 93 mph exit velo off a tee (my Ball Coach radar).  He's 6'0 180.  Entering his Jr year, we started working with a hitting instructor that believes in "getting on plane early" and seeing the trends in MLB with fly balls, we thought it was a good fit.  So the kid started hitting more fly balls, but also with legit power.  The downside was his swing and miss rate (and Ks) went up (not sure that was the swing or his approach).  Anyway, it became pretty clear that the coach felt with his speed that fly balls and Ks were a cardinal sin.

So his Sr year has been a really disheartening experience.  Through 38 AB's he has 3 HRS, a .370+ avg and an OPS of 1.1+ (his power numbers are higher than an Oregon St commit on his team).  He's faced pitchers going to LSU, Loyola Marymount, Wichita St, GCU, Wash St, Northern Colorado, New Mexico St, etc. so they see talented opponents.  But he's been splitting time at DH with a kid that is heavier (really slow), has no power, and is hitting .205.  But this other kid gets a lot of "quality" at bats (takes pitches, walks, etc.) and that is what the coach seems to value.

So, I have no answers for your challenging situation (and we face it ourselves).  HS coaches have great impact on their players (in many cases it's good, but in some it's just a really bad fit).  I believe this coach likes my kid (based on glowing character recommendations he's made to colleges), but he wants him to be a different player than he currently is.  My son isn't trying to show off, but his swing is his swing at this point.

The thing I hate is that baseball is MOSTLY a game of measurable performance.  Good hitters don't hit < .200 for very long.  Weak hitters also don't put up gaudy OPS numbers.  Assuming there are no attitude problems, then the numbers tell a great deal about the quality of a player.  But some coaches coach based on gut feelings.  And it's their jobs on the line if they don't win, but I'm amazed at times at how they choose to make playing time decisions.

There's not much a parent/player can do when a coach want to control things tightly.

Sorry for rambling.   It was therapeutic to write a little on a difficult Sr experience...

Ted Williams was talking about both launch and attack angle, which are correlated, i.e., an attack angle of + 10 degrees will result in a launch angle of + 10 degrees on his hypothetical pitch in his book that is descending at minus 10 degrees.  Or put another way, as attack angle increases, the launch angle of a ball where the batter makes contact with its center increases.   I don't think that you can fairly separate one from the other, they are married.   If you doubt that Ted is talking about launch angle, here is a quote from the Splendid Splinter himself that appears on page 62 in my copy of his book right after the chart discussed above by the Sultan of Swat (page 61), "if you get the ball in the air with power, you have the gift to produce the most important hit in baseball - the home run."           

SultanofSwat posted:

Baseball people are generally stupid. 

The ball is coming in at about 10 degrees downward angle.  Think about that for one second. (That will be one second longer than most 'baseball people' have thought about it in their entire careers).  You MUST swing UPWARD at least 10 degrees just to stay even with the ball.

In other words, swinging up is the best way to PREVENT strikeouts. 

One more thing.  If you swing flat/even or zero degree angle, the MAX distance the ball can travel in the air is 50 feet.  This ball will never hit the grass.  Their are 5 guys in the infield, and 3 in the outfield, which is 2-3 x larger.

This stuff is not rocket science.

Here is the pic that Coach B25 referred to above from Ted Williams' book from almost 50 years ago.  Look at the blue area, and think about which swing is best to prevent strikeouts.

Thank you!

uncoach posted:

CoachB25 posted:

Launch angle is nothing new.  Ted Williams discussed it in his book and there is the diagram of the swing from back in the day describing, what would today be called, launch angle.  Keep hitting the ball hard and getting hits.  That will win the coach over.  I was an AC for a guy who wanted the same thing and I was in charge of hitting.  When we started leaving the yard on a consistent basis and winning at every level, he changed his mind.  

Actually the diagram in his book and Williams' comment of swinging "slightly up" regards attack angle, not launch angle specifically. Every ball that is hit, whether the swing is down, level to ground or slightly up, results in a launch angle, including ground balls.

Well, you can view it how you would like.  For me, when I read Ted William's book, that same concept is exactly what these new guys are talking about.  In fact, the hitting coach for the St. Louis Cardinals talked about it this week on the Cardinals telecast and said exactly the same thing even referencing the same diagram and book.  

Cobra4HOF posted:

Curious what the group thinks of this in light of the launch angle debate. As I've posted before, son is a 2020 OF/MI. He plays on a 6A team in a good league in Pennsylvania. Team only has 3 HRs on season. Son has 1, probably 380 to left center. He sat the game immediately after going yard. Couldnt understand it. So tonight he tells me that in batting practice if you hit 3 or more fly balls in practice, you run laps. Doesnt matter if it's a fly ball in the gap, off the fence, or over the fence (as my son has done in practice), you run. Coach wants everything on the ground or on a line. Really?? Is this common?

Son's travel coach and his HS coach always taught to hit the ball on the plane (Not level to the ground but on the same angle the ball came in on) and that HR's were line drives that carried.  And hit it hard.

Son must have learned as he hit 27 doubles his sophomore year in college (School record) - was also 2nd in the nation in that stat for D2 JuCo's (NJCAA) that year.  Went on to hit 6 HR's at a D2 university along with 12 doubles his junior year.

Never understood coaches who favored ground balls and punished for hitting a HR.

I do understand with some HS hitters a coach wanting them to hit ground balls and force the defense to make a play but I still didn't like it.

Runs per game and OPS is up. Total hits and total HRs are up over the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

https://www.baseball-reference...eagues/MLB/bat.shtml

Some of you guys need to look at stats, and not read so much fake news at Yahoo Sports.  Hitting is better than ever.  This is the Golden Age.

SultanofSwat posted:

PABaseball posted

 The "you don't get paid to hit ground balls" approach is all fun and games until you're out of the lineup because the K rate is almost 45%. 

I guess you missed the part where an upward swing is LESS likely to K?  Are you saying Ted Williams was wrong?

I didn't miss anything. All I have to do is turn on a TV to know that strikeouts are up and batting average is down. You can dismiss every comment that disagrees with the idea of elevation and lift citing Ted Williams. But the other side to that is that Ted Williams hit .400. He was a career .350 hitter taking 3 years off in his prime. If he hit .248 any struck out 2 in every 5 ABs he'd either tell you that the approach was wrong or he was executing it poorly (implying a change needs to be made). 

Turn on a game in July. Maybe a combined 3 guys on both teams hitting over .300? Batting average isn't everything, but if you can't create runs with anything other than a HR or a 2B in the gap then how effective are you? The HR is not always going to be there. The playoffs were terrible last year. Everything was a towering flyout or a strikeout. Reading a book by somebody who actually went and did it does not translate to the current players executing the method properly. The Redsox hit HRs, yes. But Martinez and Betts also hit .330. The team hit for average and the team that manages to keep Ks down and the average up is almost always the better playoff team. 

Son had 2017 coach of the year for senior year.  Guy said, "If you hit on a home run launch angle and can't drive it out of the park, then don't expect to play."  I agree with him hitters need to help their team, not think selfishly about some potential future.

A higher attack angle doesn't necessarily create more fly balls (although it creates some more), it mostly shifts your peak exit velos to higher launch angles.

A chop down swing can still create plenty of fly balls if you pick the right pitches to hit (upper half in the zone) but they will be sliced with too much backspin. Higher attack angle means the fly balls have more zip on them. 

Dominik85 posted:

A higher attack angle doesn't necessarily create more fly balls (although it creates some more), it mostly shifts your peak exit velos to higher launch angles.

A chop down swing can still create plenty of fly balls if you pick the right pitches to hit (upper half in the zone) but they will be sliced with too much backspin. Higher attack angle means the fly balls have more zip on them. 

I don't get it.  Wouldn't a higher attack angle means the batter is not swinging along the plane of the ball path the same way that swinging level also doesn't?  This would go against the Ted William's drawing above, right?

2019OF posted:

2019 had a coach like this, we transferred.

"we"

The pro ball is juiced. 

CoachB25 posted:

uncoach posted:

CoachB25 posted:

Launch angle is nothing new.  Ted Williams discussed it in his book and there is the diagram of the swing from back in the day describing, what would today be called, launch angle.  Keep hitting the ball hard and getting hits.  That will win the coach over.  I was an AC for a guy who wanted the same thing and I was in charge of hitting.  When we started leaving the yard on a consistent basis and winning at every level, he changed his mind.  

Actually the diagram in his book and Williams' comment of swinging "slightly up" regards attack angle, not launch angle specifically. Every ball that is hit, whether the swing is down, level to ground or slightly up, results in a launch angle, including ground balls.

Well, you can view it how you would like.  For me, when I read Ted William's book, that same concept is exactly what these new guys are talking about.  In fact, the hitting coach for the St. Louis Cardinals talked about it this week on the Cardinals telecast and said exactly the same thing even referencing the same diagram and book.  

Sure. But attack angle isn't the same as launch angle. The Cardinals hitting coach should know better. I can hit a ball at a 30 degree launch angle while having a 2 degree attack angle. Williams' diagram shows a head on collision with the baseball, which is the angle of the barrel heading into the ball (attack angle).