HS Coach or Hitting Coach

i would think on the field results wins out.   Do you disagree with the drill altogether?   sometimes you take one step back to take 2 steps forward and perhaps it would take more than 6 ABs to decide.   If the drill is not valid than disregard.    What does the hitting coach think?    We have had to balance that out a bit ourselves this year and it took us longer than 6 at bats to finally just go back to old approach.    It created a lot of confusion though.  

Isn’t it a shame that players/parents can’t seem to honestly talk to coaches about such things? Players/parents should be able to approach the coach, talk to them about their concerns, then either get a satisfactory explanation about why the new “approach” is the best thing to do for the team/player and how it’s being measured, or have the player be exempt from the new “approach” without prejudice.

 

Unfortunately though, I fear too often the coach views such things as challenging his authority, and prolly even more often don’t have a way to measure the results such that they can be understood.

I get the gist of it, but I would need more information.  For example, I know of a kid that has some fairly flawed swing mechanics, but he barrels it up more often than not.  NOW, this will eventually catch up to him as he moves up the food chain.  So, does he fix it now, and struggle in the short term?  This would be akin to the example the OP suggested.  In doing so, a parent might think that a coach has "screwed him up", when in fact the coach is trying to fix him long term, as the kid has ability and aspirations beyond high school.

 

Point is, sometimes the results are a reflection of one's confidence, not so much a reflection of a particular mechanic.  I've also seen some less than credible efforts (by the kid) that don't turn out so hot!!!  In this scenario the kid is "trying" to do what the coach has suggested, but...not really.  The result - horrible.  Who done it?  Not the player!  Had to be the coach!  Not saying that it is or isn't.  I have no clue.  Only the people closest to the situation have all of the information available.  Just trying to point out one of many plausible scenarios.

 

To be clear, I coach, but am also a parent!  I try and view things from both sides of the fence, as I get to participate on both sides!  I have seen HORRIBLE coaching, and I have seen fantastic coaching with kids who chose not to, or are physically incapable of applying it.

We have had the same situation on pitching.   HS coaches have egos (imagine that!).   So saying that your pitching coach has instructed the player to do A, when the HS coach says to do B, may cause problems.  Our approach has been to say "I was looking at some youtube videos to get some ideas, and a lot of them said to ____... and it is really working for me"   That way you are letting your coach know that many experts suggest doing it in a way contrary to how the HS coach is instructing ... and that you are getting results. 

A discussion needs to take place.  Any changes to a swing take too much time and tens of thousands of swings to modify the previous swing history and muscle memory.  The coach may have a valid point, it may just take time.  The hitting coach may even think it is a good move, make the same adjustment, but do it in a way that doesn't affect performance. What's the hitting coach think about the drills / change?

Without details no one can really answer this question.  But in general I go with what really happens in the big league swing?  Look at slow mo video on youtube.  Who is right instructor or coach?  I tell my players always not to take my word for it go watch video and see if what I am telling you is true.  Instructors should be held to the same standard.

I'll try to answer some questions and provide clarification.  

 

First, I am not questioning the HS coach.  For the most part, he knows what he is doing.  But like 2forU points out, a swing change takes many reps and a lot of time that HS coaches just don't have.  But the drill did get him moving "wrong" for him. 

 

Goheels, we have been down the "flawed" swing mechanics path already.  Took a couple of years to undo what other well meaning coaches had taught him based on their internet research.  He's now being taught by a coach who has actually hit a 90+ fastball, slider, etc. in the recent past.  He has "fixed" many kids.  So I am confident he is being taught the correct mechanics. 

 

As for the hitting coach, he hates the drill.  It completely screws up the kid's lower body mechanics.  While well meaning, it leads to really bat habits (which were really ingrained into my kid in prior years). 

 

The kid doesn't want to come off a disrespectful or insubordinate.  But at the same time, he wants to hit the ball. 

Agreed that making any drastic swing changes should be left to the off season.   I suspect your deep into or just about to start playoffs.   A small tweak here or there might be ok but if I was coaching I think I would leave my hot hitters alone. 

Yes, but you need to be really careful and look at a lot of swings, not just one guy's HR derby swing.  It is also helpful to know what the hitter was trying to do when he swung.  

 

I purposely left the specifics of the drill out.  Just looking for approaches to handle the coach/instructor "conflict."     

       
       
Not sure why the home run derby comment...  I assure you I look at hundreds of swings and pitcher deliveries.   And the high speed video doesn't lie.  I have encountered way too many former pro ballplayers teaching stuff they never did and who have no idea what they are talking about.  But of course people follow them like sheep.  And of course some others are students of the game and do a great job.  I would think determining who is correct is the first order of business before plotting out a course of action.

My son's hitting coach is widely thought to be one of the very best hitting coaches in our entire area.  He has coached tons of college prospects, including many of the best players on many of the best teams in our area.  His college guys often come to take swings with him when they are on break.  Sometimes, a pro guy (mostly minor leaguers, it seems) he worked with during their youth/hs/college days stops by to chat, when they happen to be around. We've met some really accomplished hitters in passing during my sons sessions over the years.

 

I give that background just to frame what I am about to say.   No way my son would listen to his HS coach (or even his travel coach) over this guy, if there was a conflict.    

 

The hitting coach is also pretty blunt about which HS coaches in the area know something about hitting and which don't.  He thinks certain guys know their stuff and others hardly at all.   So that has helped us to calibrate a bit.

 

Not knowing the relative merits of either your HS coach or your hitting coach when it comes to hitting instruction,  my advice is to find that one knowledgeable voice that you absolutely trust and respect --  listen to it and then drown out all the rest.  (It could be either guy in your situation for all you've said.  And maybe they both do, but have a different way of communicating.)

 

Sometimes you have to pretend to listen to the others,  If it's your actual HS or travel coach we're talking about, never ever openly revolt. Never ever be disrespectful. But do find  a way to seem to listen, while staying within your own trusted program. 

There are a lot of internet gurus out there who analyze HR derby swings which aren't under game like conditions.  They can be misleading. 

 

While video is helpful, it is important not to confuse the result as seen on video with what the hitter was trying to accomplish.  That is why you see the disconnect between what the hitter is talking about and what you see on video. 

 

Soph year of high school (first varsity season) the coach told my son he needed to stop trying to pull outside pitches. My son agreed with him. He told the coach his dad had been telling him the same for a year. Then he told the coach changing his approach at the plate was going to be his off season focus. End of conversation. The coach let him continue to hit the same way. My son was a .340 singles hitter. After post season changes and added strength he hit over .500 junior year with power.

So what would you do if the kid's hitting instructor instructed him how to pull that outside pitch.   

You can always find a new hitting instructor, not so with a HS coach.  You (or your son - depending) need to tactfully discuss this with the HS coach in a way that permits the hitting instructor to continue.  The suggestion of working on it after the season seems reasonable to delay the harder discussion.  I would do it sooner rather than later. It takes many good swings to correct one bad one - train the swing.

The biggest concern I would have is the kids swing being screwed up by one drill. He may have a great swing but it's not very ingrained yet lol. I would defiantly increase the amount of reps with the good swing to try and ingrain it more. He should be able to do a drill or two no matter how silly they are and not have it mess things up.

As far a dealing with the coach. That can go a million different way. Some coaches you can just talk to about it. Their concern for their player is greater than their ego. Some you can just smile at and say yes sir and go on about your buisness. Some you have to be very very careful with how you deal with this. Without knowing the coach it would be hard to give advice.

Golfman, with all due respect, here is the problem. (Bold above) Player does a drill.  You have said yourself that HS coaches can't get enough reps to ...  Now, this drill screws up your kid.  Naturally, pro on the side can't wait to be critical of the HS coach.  It gets him more money and dependency.  BTW, did the pitching staff of the other team have anything to do with your son's lack of success?  I don't know the drill your son was asked to do.  I don't know the philosophy your HC uses.  Still, for the most part, drill work at most HS wouldn't change a swing unless it was a season long station.  JMHO!

I would go find a new hitting instructor that would teach him to hit the whole field.  There is a very small percentage of players who can pull an outside pitch regularly with success.  They are called professionals.

His hitting coach was also an assistant for the travel team. He had a summer of watching him hit. He told my son he would hit a hundred points higher if he went with the outside pitch instead of trying to turn on it. It took my son hearing it from someone else to buy in. I hired the coach as his hitting instructor because he saw what I saw.

 

The next year my son hit as many drives to right and right center as before. But some grounders to second and flairs to right became line drives over the shortstops head with some up the gap. His high school BA went from .340 to .525.

I purposely left the details of the drill out because I didn't want to get into a hitting debate.  I would also clarify that it wasn't specific to my kid, but was a team drill.  So if a player is working on a certain movement with an instructor and then the HS coach has him do a drill which changes that movement, then what is a player to do? 

 

And the kid is far from a professional hitter, more of a work in progress, so it is easy for him to revert to bad habits when drilled.  And no, the opposing pitchers had nothing to do with it.   

 

This question was really about how to diplomatically serve two masters.  You want to follow what you and your instructor have which is working for you.  At the same time, you want to respect the HS coach and not just blow off his drill. 

I understand your purpose with the OP.  For my child, what we did was create what Scott Sarginson (Ssarge) used to call a "Fall Back Swing."  It was her swing in its basic form but one that she knew she could fall back on to fix any potential problems.  Then, we had her really learn her swing.  IOWs, explain to me exactly why she did what she did, the drills she needed to fix whatever came up and the ability to trust her coaching from me.  In that way, no one could mess up her swing.  I started this when she was 10 and so, just about anyone can do it.  I know she used this method most of her life as new drills were constantly being introduced.  Some were good and some where not so good.  However, she could give an effort to achieve what the other coach wanted but also know/believe that she could fix any problem. 

 

I hope this helps some.  I used video etc. in teaching her this and so, your professional should have video available to set up a similar system and drill work to fix potential problems.  In this way, she can be loyal to both.  JMHO!

along the same lines,   my son's hitting coach is very well regarded,   a former pro player that had a high average in the pros and still works with many former students that are in minor leagues and others back from college.     He has made the statement many times that his college kids are all getting bad hitting instruction across the board for the most part,  but the minor leaguers are being taught fairly well.     Something to do with metal bat hitting perhaps?

 Individual coaches pitching coaches hitting coaches etc etc. I saw the roster of a high school team. They had 6 coaches hitting coach pitching coach defensive coach . I watch a game and see them  miss the cutoff man base running blunders. I watch a kid not run a ball out. not a word said. 

When I taught history (in chicago area) I always told my students "If Michael Jordan were standing right next to me disagreeing with what I am teaching you pertaining to history most of you would probably believe the NBA star rather than the history major/teacher."  I really believe this to be the case.  We are so starstruck in this country and it leads us down some really bad paths.  When we say 'well thought of' or 'well respected' or 'premier' when speaking of a paid instructor what exactly does that mean?  How do you know this?  Do they prove what they are teaching?  Do they have video, stats, science etc. to back it up? What people say about him or think of him is irrelevant to me.  If Babe Ruth rose from the grave and started to teach my son how to hit I would still ask that he prove what he is saying.  I could care less if a guy is a hall of famer or if he never played beyond T ball.  Its the quality of what they teach and more importantly how they are willing to be held accountable for what they teach.  I am still having people tell me their kids hitting instructor (former D1 hitting coach and current small college head coach - I guess that is supposed to stop me dead in my tracks from questioning him...) is telling his kid to swing down and contact the top inside of the ball.  I love this.  Simple science tells you this will produce ground balls to 2nd base.  And yet you can find hords of people probably some on this very board who will tell you this is the way to go.  That you will hit the top inside of the ball and somehow it will magically go up into the power alley for a double!!  But who am I to question the 'expert'.  Don't get me wrong there are a lot of bad high school coaches also.  That is why you have to do some research of your own and decide who is right.  Maybe they both suck, ever think of that?

Maybe they are both right? 

You're right maybe they are...  which brings us right back to you have to figure that out before knowing what course of action to take!

Being a former pro doesn't mean the person can instruct. Being the best instructor in the world doesn't mean the person can communicate well with a specific student. It's about proper fit. I tried teaching my son the same thing I ended up paying for him to learn. He had hit the age where he was tuning me out. I couldn't communicate effectively as a coach with him anymore.

       
       
I buy that.

I get your point that we should validate the credentials and capabilities of a hitting instructor as best we can, but I don't think this is provable.  I think having earned the respect of someone I trust (ie, recommendation) is a very good place to start.  Looking at his client base is another.  Looking at the success of his former clients is another.  Watching what he teaches, and how, is another.  Is this proof?  Not at all.  Any number of things could have led to his students' success and maybe he's a likeable guy who is good at getting referrals.  I think mistaking fancy tools (video, radar, etc), stats and slick "scientific" theories as "proof" is, well, a mistake.

Instruction is fine but you have to have a player who has some talent and is willing to listen . 

Nice post Smitty. Ask the players that he instructs. Did it help you? How did it help you? Look at the players he has worked with. Talk to them. There was a guy who lived in a small town just outside of Durham who taught hitting for decades. He never played past HS. His son played in college and was a hitter. He was fantastic at teaching kids. His students always improved. Some by leaps and bounds. He had a cage in his back yard nothing fancy. He loved working with kids. He had the ability to connect with players.

 

One of his fav things to tell a kid was "If I had a watch and you had a watch. And my watch had 10 parts and yours had 1,000 who's watch would you want to work on if one broke?" Of course the whole point was know your swing. And the less you got going on the better you will know it. And when it's broke the easier it is to fix.

 

There were numerous college players and MILB players who spent countless hours at his house. They all swore by this guys ability to watch their swing and find holes and help them fix them.

 

Don't get caught up in credentials that show THEY could do something for themselves. Focus on what they have shown they can do for others. Isn't that the whole point anyway?

My issue is that when theories become provable old time baseball people still turn their nose up at it.  And these things are in fact provable.  Not even sure what you mean by scientific 'theories'?  So when fan graphs does a study and finds that none of the 50 players they charted has a negative attack angle is that a theory?  I would say that is a fact.  And in the face of this overwhelming evidence are you still going to teach a kid to swing down on the ball?  If you are a right handed hitter and you hit the 'inside' of the ball the ball will go to the right side.  This is a law of physics.  Can a former pro ballplayer now hanging his shingle out as an instructor change the laws of physics cause he hit .320 one year in AA ball?  If we can not come up with one single high speed video clip showing a hitter swinging down, hitting the top half of the ball and producing a nice line drive into the gap should we still be ok with those that teach it?  What if he says he wants you to 'hit hard ground balls' and line drives even though every statistic tells us (see other thread) that if you error from the line drive better to error in the air?  These things ARE provable.  Help me by telling me what you think is not provable?  I agree we can never absolutely PROVE he helped or hindered the pupil.  But we can absolutely prove his teaching points to be true or false.  Once you have an instructor teaching the right things then as others have said it comes down to who can communicate those things best to your son.

Really how much does it matter? 

Is any coaching going to make or break a great college bound player? 

Did the quality of coaching produce the player in the first place?

 

We have a local hitting coach that received a lot of momentum recruiting studs to his facility.  Did he hurt them? - No - Did he help them???  He now rides there success as his prodigy's.  They were all accomplished hitters before they ever went to his facility. 

Through my baseball experience and experience of following my sons youth baseball players are players nondependent on coaches.

 

 

 

Amen to most of this!  I would like to think we coaches matter at least a little, but no doubt you are correct it is mostly on the player.  And their success (or lack thereof) is on them not us.  And I couldn't agree more that a lot of these travel institutions are gatherers more than develpoers.  That having been said I am extremely happy with the opportunities afforeded my son at his travel program from a facilities standpoint.  As well as an excellent stregnth and fitness guy.  And unfortunately I do agree with the old addage that a bad coach harms kids much more than a good coach helps them.  Thats why i am a big beliver in reps.  Less talking more doing.  Or at least keep the doing an the talking separate.  If there is a problem schedule a separate time to look at video.

Maybe my engineering brain is struggling to see where laws of physics and actual scientific proof exist in this discussion, or how correlation automatically equals causation.  I think this is about trust and communication.  There are a lot of different ways to communicate the right swing mechanics, and the phrases you point to, to me, are usually meant as queues, rather than things to be taken literally.  For example, when I say "stay inside the ball" or "hit the inside of the ball", of course I don't mean this literally, I mean it as a reminder not to cast.  When I say "stay on top of the ball", of course I don't mean this literally, I mean don't drop the hands.  I'm pretty sure my kid understands this.  I don't think its that hard to tell the difference between a hitting coach who is using verbal queues to communicate vs ones that are genuinely teaching nonsensical things.

 

I am glad to hear you feel that way. However it is my experience kids take things very literally and I think you would be astonished how many really truly believe these things and will argue with you til they are blue in the face.  As for trust...  I really don't do the trust thing.  I pretty much need evidence in every single case in life.  Jaded?  Maybe but seems to be a good policy.

When my kid started with his current coach I sat in "horror" as he basically went against everything the internet hitting gurus had said.  But parent after parent told me that their kid couldn't hit a beach ball prior to working with the guy.  So I opened my mind and observed everything he did.  I then watched the results.  I re-evaluated everything I thought I knew about the baseball swing.  What I realized was that while he may not be an internet guru, he actually knew what he was talking about.  He had learned from some of the best and had actually performed it live.  My kid responded and the rest is history. 

There is a ton of "truth" in this.  Take the whole "swing down" queue (I know 2020 you hate it).  But really look at the videos.  Look at the hands, not the bat.  In virtually every video I have seen the hands take a downward path from the shoulder area to about the mid-point of the body (think between the breasts).  It's only a few inches and it happens really fast, even in slow mo.  But it is there.  So, is "swing down" wrong?  Yes/No/maybe.  If it leads to a chopping motion, yes.  But for some hitters it may just be a the queue they need to get the proper angel of attack at the start of the swing.  You can't judge a coach by his queues. 

The hands come down hard no doubt about it.  And I have seen one guy who elaborates on just that - the beginning of the swing where beyond any doubt it is a steep downward angle.  And as long as all this is explained to a pupil I have no issue at all with it.  Probably the smartest kid on our team had a a long conversation with me last year about 'hitting the top half'.  He said he uses it as a queue.  After making sure we were clear on reality vs. Queue I was fine with it.  But again while your guy may not be one of them there are still a ton who will stand there and tell you that you actually do these things.