HS Umpiring

coach2709 posted:

JCG posted:

A player in our league was disqualified for play during the final 3 weeks of his senior season because he was ejected from a game for a second time this season, which is apparently a league rule.  So question #1 is -- is that a good rule?  #2  has to due with causes for ejections. I witnessed the player's first ejection and it was well-deserved.  Catcher tagged him hard on a possible dropped 3rd strike. He did not like it, and then he called the catcher an effing f****t after he struck out.  I did not witness his second  ejection, but I heard that it was done by an ump who is known to tell both coaches in the plate meeting that any time he hears a player utter the F word that is cause for ejection.  Apparently he did with this kid, but I don't know the specifics.   If he cursed an opponent again, fine. But if he said the magic word to himself after missing a play or something like that, it seems like a bit much.  This kid is clearly no choirboy but it's a shame to lose his last few weeks of his final season of baseball due a word.

He absolutely deserves to get ejected and and miss the rest of the season.  It is literally in the rules that cuss words are not to be said under NFHS rules (I don't remember the exact wording).  People know (or at least should) these rules and he chose to break it.  He had a choice to control himself or to continue behaving the same way he's always behaved.  

 Yes, everyone should know profanity is a no-no in all high school sports.

Even the most argumentative high school coaches know they have to keep it clean.

Suspensions are a matter for higher authority.

(Note: I am subject to momentary bouts of deafness when profanity is the immediate reaction to physical pain or clearly directed inward--as long as it's not too loud. Cup shots always get a pass.)

If a senior was suspended once already for actions and language, he obviously didn't learn his lesson.  Shame he got suspended during final season but it is all his own fault.

Heard my kid drop some language crossing first one time....threw his helmet.  I almost lost it at third.  My son DID not finish the game and he DID NOT play the next.  That was my call.

Never did it again.  And if when he does, I hope he gets suspended.   No place for it.

Swampboy posted:

coach2709 posted:

JCG posted:

A player in our league was disqualified for play during the final 3 weeks of his senior season because he was ejected from a game for a second time this season, which is apparently a league rule.  So question #1 is -- is that a good rule?  #2  has to due with causes for ejections. I witnessed the player's first ejection and it was well-deserved.  Catcher tagged him hard on a possible dropped 3rd strike. He did not like it, and then he called the catcher an effing f****t after he struck out.  I did not witness his second  ejection, but I heard that it was done by an ump who is known to tell both coaches in the plate meeting that any time he hears a player utter the F word that is cause for ejection.  Apparently he did with this kid, but I don't know the specifics.   If he cursed an opponent again, fine. But if he said the magic word to himself after missing a play or something like that, it seems like a bit much.  This kid is clearly no choirboy but it's a shame to lose his last few weeks of his final season of baseball due a word.

He absolutely deserves to get ejected and and miss the rest of the season.  It is literally in the rules that cuss words are not to be said under NFHS rules (I don't remember the exact wording).  People know (or at least should) these rules and he chose to break it.  He had a choice to control himself or to continue behaving the same way he's always behaved.  

 Yes, everyone should know profanity is a no-no in all high school sports.

Even the most argumentative high school coaches know they have to keep it clean.

Suspensions are a matter for higher authority.

(Note: I am subject to momentary bouts of deafness when profanity is the immediate reaction to physical pain or clearly directed inward--as long as it's not too loud. Cup shots always get a pass.)

I'm the same way...and it is analogous to the conversation of the expected strike zone.

We all know that FED states that profanity is an ejection. If I follow the letter of the law, I have to eject anybody who says any profanity. However, I know of no umpire in my area that wouldn't give similar leeway, nor of any coach that would agree that ALL profanity should result in ejection. An umpire that took that rule literally would be having a very quick come-to-Jesus meeting after the second such incident (as there would be mandatory reporting of them.) That's not because we are condoning profanity; we are acknowledging that there are times where ejection is not a suitable remedy for a situation. No one wants to see a kid suspended for a game or four (the second time in my state) because he got hit in the balls.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

Yes RC's/scouts can tell balls /strikes. The thing is interest in the kid is because of how far he hits the ball. Fact is there are many players with higher batting averages, but I would guess not to many able to send a ball 450'. Between pitchers pitching around him and some very generous strike zones it can be a challenge to put the ball in play. 

The kid has his ticket punched college wise. I'm assuming the MLB will still exist in 3-4 years. The pitchers throwing around him,  and the umpires with very liberal zones enabling them, becomes very frustrating none the less. 

If you trust and understand the process and College coaches and Scouts doing their job I don't understand the frustration

Matt13 posted:

Swampboy posted:

coach2709 posted:

JCG posted:

A player in our league was disqualified for play during the final 3 weeks of his senior season because he was ejected from a game for a second time this season, which is apparently a league rule.  So question #1 is -- is that a good rule?  #2  has to due with causes for ejections. I witnessed the player's first ejection and it was well-deserved.  Catcher tagged him hard on a possible dropped 3rd strike. He did not like it, and then he called the catcher an effing f****t after he struck out.  I did not witness his second  ejection, but I heard that it was done by an ump who is known to tell both coaches in the plate meeting that any time he hears a player utter the F word that is cause for ejection.  Apparently he did with this kid, but I don't know the specifics.   If he cursed an opponent again, fine. But if he said the magic word to himself after missing a play or something like that, it seems like a bit much.  This kid is clearly no choirboy but it's a shame to lose his last few weeks of his final season of baseball due a word.

He absolutely deserves to get ejected and and miss the rest of the season.  It is literally in the rules that cuss words are not to be said under NFHS rules (I don't remember the exact wording).  People know (or at least should) these rules and he chose to break it.  He had a choice to control himself or to continue behaving the same way he's always behaved.  

 Yes, everyone should know profanity is a no-no in all high school sports.

Even the most argumentative high school coaches know they have to keep it clean.

Suspensions are a matter for higher authority.

(Note: I am subject to momentary bouts of deafness when profanity is the immediate reaction to physical pain or clearly directed inward--as long as it's not too loud. Cup shots always get a pass.)

I'm the same way...and it is analogous to the conversation of the expected strike zone.

We all know that FED states that profanity is an ejection. If I follow the letter of the law, I have to eject anybody who says any profanity. However, I know of no umpire in my area that wouldn't give similar leeway, nor of any coach that would agree that ALL profanity should result in ejection. An umpire that took that rule literally would be having a very quick come-to-Jesus meeting after the second such incident (as there would be mandatory reporting of them.) That's not because we are condoning profanity; we are acknowledging that there are times where ejection is not a suitable remedy for a situation. No one wants to see a kid suspended for a game or four (the second time in my state) because he got hit in the balls.

Look I'm completely fine with this to be honest.  The thing is IF that umpire is out there who doesn't have your judgement displays the finger and tells them to follow it there is nothing anybody can say because it is a rule.

Not to run this into the ground but I do have work I need to avoid doing.  I was talking to another parent about this situation today and he said that perhaps with this particular kid, because the 1st offense was egregious, maybe the association had been told by the league or section officials to put him on a very short leash.  From what I've seen in my area, ejections are very rare in baseball, though from what I  hear from my kid, inappropriate language is not.

JCG posted:

Not to run this into the ground but I do have work I need to avoid doing.  I was talking to another parent about this situation today and he said that perhaps with this particular kid, because the 1st offense was egregious, maybe the association had been told by the league or section officials to put him on a very short leash.  From what I've seen in my area, ejections are very rare in baseball, though from what I  hear from my kid, inappropriate language is not.

This seems plausible. He did use a slur at an opponent, after all. Here, that would have resulted in additional penalties in addition to the minimum one-game suspension.

If a specific umpire is known to follow the letter of the law for cuss words regardless of how loud they are said, then you can bet all the coaches know who it is and let's face it - the coach could "advise" his player to control himself especially around that specific umpire... Still, with or without the advisement, the onus is squarely on the player.  He really already was warned after the first ejection/suspension. Rather than thinking that an association told it's umpires to put the kid on a short leash, consider this - maybe the kid is known to be a habitual abuser. Umpires do talk before games about a lot of stuff. You know if two teams are rivals, you know sometimes if they've had an incident before because the umpire grapevine works pretty well. The perhaps more interesting questions are - so his parents are OK with how he acts on the baseball field?  His coach is willing to look the other way even after the first incident?  The administration at the school is willing to look the other way? Does he really want to play in college?  Just because swearing has become part of everyday vernacular doesn't mean it should. As they say, high school sports are an extension of the classroom. Does this player cuss around his teachers too?  Would he expect to do at a job?

JohnF posted:

If a specific umpire is known to follow the letter of the law for cuss words regardless of how loud they are said, then you can bet all the coaches know who it is and let's face it - the coach could "advise" his player to control himself especially around that specific umpire... Still, with or without the advisement, the onus is squarely on the player.  He really already was warned after the first ejection/suspension. Rather than thinking that an association told it's umpires to put the kid on a short leash, consider this - maybe the kid is known to be a habitual abuser. Umpires do talk before games about a lot of stuff. You know if two teams are rivals, you know sometimes if they've had an incident before because the umpire grapevine works pretty well. The perhaps more interesting questions are - so his parents are OK with how he acts on the baseball field?  His coach is willing to look the other way even after the first incident?  The administration at the school is willing to look the other way? Does he really want to play in college?  Just because swearing has become part of everyday vernacular doesn't mean it should. As they say, high school sports are an extension of the classroom. Does this player cuss around his teachers too?  Would he expect to do at a job?

I think you overestimate how often the same umpire sees the same teams. This isn't the pros.

Also, I really don't care about swearing around teachers (I had some great ones that were masters at it) and I have yet to see a job where swearing didn't occur (ok, maybe some sort of religious leader...but even those can sometimes use it.)

I swear at my job, judiciously, and I'm actually a MS teacher. Obviously, I don't swear around the kids, but I don't spend a lot of time policing their swearing either (I mostly don't have to). I'm quite certain the kids swear all the time out of earshot of the adults (I've raised three teenagers), but as long as they're aware of the context (when and in front of whom) I think that's probably a good thing.

Matt13 posted:

I think you overestimate how often the same umpire sees the same teams. This isn't the pros.

Also, I really don't care about swearing around teachers (I had some great ones that were masters at it) and I have yet to see a job where swearing didn't occur (ok, maybe some sort of religious leader...but even those can sometimes use it.)

Depends - my son tells me where he's at there are some guys that always work the same schools. I get assigned to a variety.  I think it really depends on the area, quantity/quality of umpires available, etc. Still umpires talk, coaches talk - the grapevine works.

As for swearing - I do agree it's about being judicious. If only a couple of people can hear the s/f-bomb - it's usually a quick reminder to the player to not get himself in trouble... If grandma can hear it in the stands, as they say we have no choice. There's a time and place for everything - directing those words at an opposing player in such a demeaning manner seems to cross more than one line to me.

Re: Profanity.......

As an Umpire, I cannot swear on a ball field....I cannot swear at coaches, players or fans. If I do, I can expect  immediate and  severe consequences. I will be suspended by my chapter, my association and possibly the league I am calling for.  They apply a ZERO tolerance to Umpires.

Couple disclosures....

my comments below do not apply to youth baseball. I don't tolerate profanity from any participant at the youth level.

Personal profane comments directed at Umpires, opposing players or coaches will get you ejected.      

Now for the levels I call, expecting no profanity from the playing participants is not a realistic expectation. Profanity in general conversation nowadays is far more prevalent. So as much of the rulebook relies on Umpire judgment, I handle profanity on a contextual basis.....

Profanity coming out from an injury/pain situation gets a pass.

Inward facing "quiet 'profanity gets a "watch your language"- e.g.: strikes out with bases  loaded, swears but only heard by catcher and me...

Unless directed at me personally, and if  I'm the only one who hears it gets a  "watch your language" ... or I may choose not to hear it.

I have ejected players for profanity, and those that were ejected deserved it. If you direct profanity at Umpires, opposing players or fans expect to go.

In the end, I'm umpiring a baseball game, not a prayer meeting....but there is a link between unchecked profanity and escalating behavior issues on the ball field. I understand it and deal with it.