Hypothetical flyball/appeal situation

The runner can go back to retouch. The phrasing following 7.10(b) is awkward, but it means that once the ball becomes dead, if the runner then continues to run and touches a following base, he can't return. So in your eaxample, the runner is between second and third bases when the ball is thrown out of play. He can return to first. But if he goes ahead and touched third while the ball is dead, then he cannot return. Note also rule 7.05(i) comment:

"If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base."

Even when the ball goes dead, all runners are permitted to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities.

When the ball goes dead, the umpire should point at the runner and say 'you are awarded Third Base'. This neutral language does not tip off either side that an appeal is an option. If the runner goes back and retouches First before proceeding to Third, hes fine. If he instead proceeds directly to Third, then he cannot return to First and is vulnerable to appeal.

How can runners still be permitted baserunning responsibilities if the rule says:
7.10 b (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. Yes, the ball is dead, and yes he has advanced one base beyond the missed base.
Can you explain to me why he can return and in which rule that is stated.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Willem:
How can runners still be permitted baserunning responsibilities if the rule says:
7.10 b (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. Yes, the ball is dead, and yes he has advanced one base beyond the missed base.
Can you explain to me why he can return and in which rule that is stated.

No, he hasn't. He was between Second and Third when the ball went dead (from TOT). As long as he doesn't touch Third, he can return and touch Second, then First while the ball is dead, thus completing his responsibilities (and then accepting his base award).

3Fingerglove was right on in his answer.

Now, if he touches Third he HAS 'advanced a base' and cannot fix his miss of Second.

What the rule means is if a runner touches a base beyond where he was when the ball went of of play then he can't return.
Example:
R1 and ball hit routine to the outfield. R1 goes halfway to see if the ball will be caught. Once caught he tries to return but ball is thrown in DBT. He is awarded third. If he returns to first and then takes his award he is fine. As sson as he touches second he is no longer able to touch first.

R1 and ball hit to left center. He thinks it isn't going to be caught and takes off. He rounds second and then realizes the ball is going to be caught so he starts to return. The F8 throws to first to double him off and throws the ball in the dugout. The runner is awarded two bases from his position when the ball was released, TOT. If he is still past second he is awarded home. Bacause he hasn't advanced yet he can still return to first and retouch. If he does then he is then only awarded third. If he doesn't he is awarded home but is subject to appelaed at first. As soon as he touches third he can no longer return to first to correct his error.

In either case if he touches an advanced base after the ball is dead then he can "return" to touch first but he still subject to an appeal.

quote:

What the rule means is if a runner touches a base beyond where he was when the ball went of of play then he can't return.

Sorry, but I'm really stubborn =) I'm having some problems with this, because there is nothing stated in the rule about before or after the ball was dead. Only that if the ball is dead, a runner can return to the last base touched and none before. So if he is between 2nd and 3rd he can only return to 2nd and not to 1rst. Is doesn't say anything about the moment the ball went out of play relative to the moment the runner touched a base beyond the missed base.

Let's try this one phrase at a time:

quote:

7.10 b (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

a. When the ball is dead

...the ball 'went dead' when it left the fielder's hand on the throw..at which point the runner was between Second Base and Third, and had missed Second base.

b. ..after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base

...he has not touched a base beyond his missed base (which was Second). He is between his missed base and the next base (Third). Therefore he can correct his missed base *if* he recognizes his error. The rule says clearly "or one he has left" which in this case is First. Therefore, if he stops between Second and Third and thinks, "oh no, I missed Second and left First too soon!" he can go back to Second, touch, then First, retouch, and move to Third on the base award touching Second on the way. He has now completed his baserunning responsibilties and an appeal would be denied. If he doesnt realize he missed anything, and just goes to Third directly without retracing his steps..then on an appeal he is out.

If he touches Third, then he cannot correct his error. Of course, if the defense does not appeal, then he's ok anyway.

I dont know how else to say it.

Well maybe I confused you with the word 'rounds' (probably not proper english then, I presume). I meant that in this situation the runner has legally touched 2nd base and between 2nd and 3rd base he can see the ball is cought and the ball goes dead. But the only 'missed base'/'left' is 1rst, he has touched 2nd base. So he has progressed one base ahead of the missed base, because he did touch second base, and in my opinion he therefore cannot return to first base to retouch. If the defensive team make a proper appeal the runner should be declared out.

This is way the Fed rule is and specifically says that. In OBR it is after the ball is dead. Iwill try to find something in the MLBUM to support it.

This from the MLBUM. That is the umpire's manual for pro baseball.
<B>5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH
A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even
though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while
the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and
the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official
Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)
Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on
first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right
fielder's throw to first s wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.
Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).
However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore,
because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return
to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not
return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner
properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base
(two bases from his original base).
5.11 RETOUCHING BASES WHEN BALL IS DEAD
While the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon
after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base. A runner may return to a
missed base (or one he has left too soon) during the time the ball is dead if he has not touched the
next base. A runner may, of course, return to any missed base (or one he has left too soon) while
the ball is in play unless a following runner has scored. See Approved Rulings (2) and (1) to
Official Baseball Rule 7.10(b).


(5) Runners on first and second, one out. Batter hits deep fly ball that is caught by right fielder.
The runner from second was running when the ball was hit, did not tag up, and proceeds to
touch and round third base. After the runner from second has rounded third base, the right
fielder throws behind the runner from first, who is returning to first base. The fielder's throw
is wild and goes out of play. The umpires call "Time" and award the runners home and third.
When the umpires call "Time" the runner from second is between third and home, and the
runner from first is between first and second. At this point the manager yells to the runner
from second (who is between third and home) to go back and tag up at second base. Is this
permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon?
Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When
the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third
and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return
to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner
advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return.</B>

Where can i buy this manual =)

Unfortunately you have to know a MLB umpire to get one. I need to start looking for a new one because mine is several years old and they have made rule changes since then.
I would suggest trying to buy Jaska/Roder manual. Google Jaska/Roder or rick Roder and they have a site. It is pretty good.

Consider:
R1, 0 outs. Long fly ball to right field.

R1 running with the pitch. R1 has touched and rounded 2B. F9 leaps, makes the catch and carries the ball over the fence and OOP.

This is a one base award.
Place the runner.

My thought is award from the last base legally touched, which is 2nd.

Some argue, the award is 2nd as 1B was really the last base legally touched. Yeah it might be.

I say, award 3rd, but, if the runner does what he's supposed to, goes back and retouches before he touches 3rd, then, award 2nd.

This seems to agree with your excerpt from the MLBUM.

The R1 touched and passed 2nd, I believe he gets awarded from that point, TOT or TO-OOP.

But, should he return and retouch properly, I would then award 2nd on the one base award.

Am I hosed up, am I missing something?

Some say awarding third confuses the offense into an advantage for the defense, "you third", would make the runner cower and obey, regardless of his requirements. I don't buy it.

What if the runner left only a step to soon, and hadn't yet reached 2nd, I would still award 2B, he's still gotta do the right thing, I say, "time you 2nd", if he indeed cowers and obeys, he's subject to appeal.

Some say sending the runner back to second, does the same, only tips the defense again, "he must not have retouched 1st or blue woulda sent him on to
3rd."

I guess in closing, I am convinced (whether right or wrong at this point) that the proper mechanic would be to: signal time, award 3RD, and wait to see what happens.

Runner goes to 3RD, and there is an appeal, he's out.

Runner goes to 3rd and no appeal, all is well.

Runner retouches properly, and is awarded 2nd, all is well.

Some say send him back to 2nd as he's got to retouch first. I ask why, "he doesn't HAVE to re-touch, he is only REQUIRED to re-touch, to avoid an appeal.

If he is past second award from second. If he goes back and retouches then the new award is second.
If he hasn't reached second then the award is only going to be second. It doesn't matter if he retouched or not as to him getting second. If he doesn't then he is subject to an appeal.
You seem to have it right.