I'm a doctor. You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Are you sure that idiot just didn't sleep at a holiday inn express?

Funny RJM.  Especially the "you are dangerous" comment.  I love it.  He must have been a proctologist.

fenwaysouth posted:

Funny RJM.  Especially the "you are dangerous" comment.  I love it.  He must have been a proctologist.

I'm thinking chiropractor.  ;-)  But seriously, I have encountered a number of MD's, including some ortho's that did not treat elbows/shoulders,  that knew very little about pitching injuries.  

Before anyone takes offense, I know some chiropractors that know as much or more about baseball injuries than most doctors.  

His rudeness aside, in my experience, physicians don't like to be questioned on medical-related opinions by non-physicians, especially by Ph.D.-level researchers and persons quoting research by physicians and Ph.D. researchers. For that matter, Ph.D.'s in any kind of biomedical field tend to be insecure around physicians. And so it goes as a cultural phenomenon. 

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

Yes because clearly MDs have the market cornered on "knowing what they're talking about"

http://www.npr.org/sections/he...ll-of-medical-errors

"Based on an analysis of prior research, the Johns Hopkins study estimates that more than 250,000 Americans die each year from medical errors. On the CDC's official list, that would rank just behind heart disease and cancer, which each took about 600,000 lives in 2014, and in front of respiratory disease, which caused about 150,000 deaths."

One of son's teammates has a doctor for a father, who also coached (not well). My kid is a 2018 throwing close to 90. He used to catch, and still does for his fall team (they're careful and he doesn't pitch and catch same day, etc).

Doctor/coach saw son catch one day and asked me why son isn't catching more for our HS team. "uh, because the coach wants him to have an arm left after high school" was all I could think to say.

When it comes to baseball, I'll put my money on a good coach who puts my kid's health first, rather than a doctor who may or may not have any background in sports.

RJM - Not to argue, but do you think there is sufficient knowledge of good pitching mechanics - as it relates to the curveball - that most youngsters can get solid instruction and avoid injury?  I like the saying "don't throw curveballs until you start shaving".  I also like "don't play with matches" despite matches themselves not being a bad thing.  I appreciate you pointing out the lack of any expertise a medical doctor probably has when it comes to the potential for harm (and their arrogance), but in the end I think this "ignorance" pays lots in dividends and keeps a bunch of kooks from stating that they can teach a 10 yo to safely throw the curve.  

2017LHPscrewball posted:

RJM - Not to argue, but do you think there is sufficient knowledge of good pitching mechanics - as it relates to the curveball - that most youngsters can get solid instruction and avoid injury?  I like the saying "don't throw curveballs until you start shaving".  I also like "don't play with matches" despite matches themselves not being a bad thing.  I appreciate you pointing out the lack of any expertise a medical doctor probably has when it comes to the potential for harm (and their arrogance), but in the end I think this "ignorance" pays lots in dividends and keeps a bunch of kooks from stating that they can teach a 10 yo to safely throw the curve.  

The studies done so far have often NOT included specific mechanics on curve balls. What this shows is that ANY curve ball mechanic cannot be shown to be more injurious than a fastball, whether thrown "correctly" (whatever that means) or "incorrectly." If "incorrect" curve ball mechanics were so injurious, then there would have been a stronger correlation with self-reported curve balls, unless you conclude that every kid reporting throwing curves was throwing "correctly."

Now, Andrews continues to hang onto the "don't throw curve balls until you're shaving" advice, but his reasoning has changed. It used to be a common refrain among ortho doctors because the theoretical aspect seemed to make sense. So, his rationale used to be that the mechanics of a curve caused arm problems. However, when multiple ASMI studies started with that very hypothesis, but could show no correlation, he simply shifted his rationale. He now reasons that kids who throw curve balls early are more successful and effective pitchers and more successful and effective pitchers are more prone to be overused. So, basically, his rationale is that if you're a good pitcher, you are more likely to be overused and, thus, more prone to injury. Strangely, this makes sense, but the message seems to be, "don't be a good pitcher and you cut down the odds of injury." True, but...  

Keep in mind to, that many things science takes to heart based on what should theoretically be true, often are proven to be false once put under a microscope. These opinions get ingrained into a profession and take a while, even after proven wrong, to get out of the "common knowledge" area. For example, it was long held by scientists in the field that the curve ball was simply an optical illusion - that the ball didn't actually take a curved path, but that the spin of the ball made it appear  to move along a non-linear path. However, once the technology existed to measure the path, it was shown to actually move. 

Now, setting aside the surveys done by ASMI, Dr. Nissan and a few others have done stress test comparisons of pitch types - again not differentiating curve ball mechanics by categories that proscribe "correct" - and found more stress on the ucl from fastballs than from curve balls. However, just as some scientists held on to the illusion theory for curves, many doctors will hold onto the "curve balls are more dangerous" philosophy that was drilled into their heads for generations.

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

Ironically (pending approval from Swampboy on my use of the word) the so-called "football curve", which is an incorrectly thrown curveball, is arguably the safest and also the most effective breaking pitch a kid can throw on the small diamond.

JCG posted:

Ironically (pending approval from Swampboy on my use of the word) the so-called "football curve", which is an incorrectly thrown curveball, is arguably the safest and also the most effective breaking pitch a kid can throw on the small diamond.

I actually still teach this pitch to high school kids as a change up and it can be extremely effective even at upper levels.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

RJM - Not to argue, but do you think there is sufficient knowledge of good pitching mechanics - as it relates to the curveball - that most youngsters can get solid instruction and avoid injury?  I like the saying "don't throw curveballs until you start shaving".  I also like "don't play with matches" despite matches themselves not being a bad thing.  I appreciate you pointing out the lack of any expertise a medical doctor probably has when it comes to the potential for harm (and their arrogance), but in the end I think this "ignorance" pays lots in dividends and keeps a bunch of kooks from stating that they can teach a 10 yo to safely throw the curve.  

It's says in the articles and I agree the research is not evidence to go out and throw all the curves you want. The particular kid I was watching had the pitching mechanics of a skilled college prospect. But I don't believe a lot of kids should throw curves ...

1) There are kids teaching themselves how to throw a curve. It's effective as an offspeed pitch in the game. But with bad mechanics it's physically abusive to their arm.

2) Too many youth coaches don't recognize bad mechanics. They only recognize the kid is getting out hitters and keep calling for it. 

3) Too many youth coaches can't recognize pitchers tiring and their mechanics breaking down. A kid can wreck his arm with fatigue and failing mechanics with any kind of pitch.

I taught my son and other preteen pitchers how to throw a curve. I knew they would be fooling around with it in the backyeard and out at the field. But I also taught them a change (three finger or circle) and the knuckle curve/change. 

The knuckle curve broke so much just by the grip the kids loved it. Thrown wrong it didn't hang and scream "hit me out of the park." It tended to bounce in front of the plate. 

I had a kid on my 13u team with a nasty curve but poor mechanics. I wouldn't let him throw a curve until he learned properly. When it became a year long battle with the kid and a parent I didn't ask him back for the following year.

You should have asked for a second opinion!

RJM posted:

2017LHPscrewball posted:

RJM - Not to argue, but do you think there is sufficient knowledge of good pitching mechanics - as it relates to the curveball - that most youngsters can get solid instruction and avoid injury?  I like the saying "don't throw curveballs until you start shaving".  I also like "don't play with matches" despite matches themselves not being a bad thing.  I appreciate you pointing out the lack of any expertise a medical doctor probably has when it comes to the potential for harm (and their arrogance), but in the end I think this "ignorance" pays lots in dividends and keeps a bunch of kooks from stating that they can teach a 10 yo to safely throw the curve.  

It's says in the articles and I agree the research is not evidence to go out and throw all the curves you want. The particular kid I was watching had the pitching mechanics of a skilled college prospect. But I don't believe a lot of kids should throw curves ...

1) There are kids teaching themselves how to throw a curve. It's effective as an offspeed pitch in the game. But with bad mechanics it's physically abusive to their arm.

2) Too many youth coaches don't recognize bad mechanics. They only recognize the kid is getting out hitters and keep calling for it. 

3) Too many youth coaches can't recognize pitchers tiring and their mechanics breaking down. A kid can wreck his arm with fatigue and failing mechanics with any kind of pitch.

I taught my son and other preteen pitchers how to throw a curve. I knew they would be fooling around with it in the backyeard and out at the field. But I also taught them a change (three finger or circle) and the knuckle curve/change. 

The knuckle curve broke so much just by the grip the kids loved it. Thrown wrong it didn't hang and scream "hit me out of the park." It tended to bounce in front of the plate. 

I had a kid on my 13u team with a nasty curve but poor mechanics. I wouldn't let him throw a curve until he learned properly. When it became a year long battle with the kid and a parent I didn't ask him back for the following year.

 

As to your #1 and #2, this seems to be a popular opinion, but I don't see anything to back it up. First, can anyone show me "bad curve ball mechanics" that they can show to be injurious? In my experience, I see plenty of kids with bad curve ball mechanics. I don't see anything "injurious" about them - just ineffective.  

To #3 - definitely, but generally, the breaking down with fatigue comes from lower body mechanics and magnifies stress factors perhaps even more on the fastball than the curve. 

As to pronation vs. supination, I do believe the forces are probably greater for supination. However, the forces associated with the mechanics in the "lay back" position of the arm are so much greater with a fastball than with a curve. This so completely dwarfs the forces associated with supination during forward arm motion, that the lessening vulgas arm angles and forces most youth pitchers demonstrate on the curve vs. fast ball more than negate the added stress associated with supination.

The other problem associated with teaching supination is more stressful depends on the assumption that the many of the pronator muscles are dormant during supination and that this factor means less protection for the ucl. However, there are studies that put this assumption into doubt. There is some proof out there that the pronator muscles may be activated even during supination.

Re #1 and 2 ...

Think about all the teams in LL and Ripken not just the good travel teams you face. There are a lot less pre teen kids getting quality instruction than you think. I see kids sidewinding curves while placing a tremendous amount of torque on their arm. If the pre teen hitters were a little more skilled at pitch recognition they would take batting practice on these curves. The arm slot is a lot lower. The hitters tend to get on their front foot due to the change in speed. 

RJM posted:

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

So what you are really saying is you get off going to LL games and causing arguments with fans who are already a little ticked off because they are losing??? Do you also bet on these games or handicap youth sports as well? 

from SI article by Verducit

"So inscrutable is the magic of a curveball that it is accepted wisdom in the game that, while pitchers can learn to sink a baseball (with a two-seamer) and cut it (with a cutter or slider), they generally cannot learn how to throw a great curve. It is not a projectable pitch. Organizations have learned that if someone does not show an aptitude to spin the baseball as an amateur, it’s foolish to expect him to acquire the skill."

There is an old saying in baseball: “Don’t throw a curve until you shave.” The long-held belief is that the action of imparting spin on a baseball increases stress on the elbow, especially for young pitchers whose growth plates have not closed.

This is a myth. There is no scientific evidence to show that curveballs for young pitchers are more dangerous than fastballs (as with all pitches, fatigue and poor mechanics are the biggest risk factors). A study by the American Sports Medicine Institute in Birmingham in 2011 found no relationship between throwing curveballs at a young age and any increased risk of arm injuries in young players.

The “shave” rule has not applied to some of the greatest curveball practitioners. Blyleven, following his father’s advice, began throwing his curveball at 13. Kershaw was 11. Pascual began throwing his curveball in Cuba when he was 10. Wainwright learned his when he was nine, from his older brother, Trey. Barry Zito learned his hook when he was seven, and fired curveballs into a mattress with a strike zone painted on it.

and from real world experience  I have a good friend  his son was picked in the top 5 rounds this summer out of high school,  he doesnt throw a curve his dad would not let him throw one until high school and by then he couldnt get the feel for it at all.   Teams told him he projected as a releiver since he lacked a really good breaking ball,  he throws an ok slider,  and that was the difference in 1st rd pick for him and where he ended up.  

https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/05...shaw-lance-mccullers

I had my kid start throwing curve balls at 9 almost exclusively because I thought it helped alleviate  the stress of throwing fastball after fastball. I saw the curve as a mechanism to give his arm a rest from greater stresses. Many others I ran into cautioned me on how I was going to ruin his arm. I just didn't see it that way.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

So what you are really saying is you get off going to LL games and causing arguments with fans who are already a little ticked off because they are losing??? Do you also bet on these games or handicap youth sports as well? 

So what are you saying? You have nothing better to do today than launch a personal attack on another poster rather than ask a relevant question? 

roothog66 posted:

I had my kid start throwing curve balls at 9 almost exclusively because I thought it helped alleviate  the stress of throwing fastball after fastball. I saw the curve as a mechanism to give his arm a rest from greater stresses. Many others I ran into cautioned me on how I was going to ruin his arm. I just didn't see it that way.

Back in LL people told me I was ruining my son's arm letting him throw curves. He threw a knuckle curve. I explained it was nothing but grip. The response would be "a curve is a curve." I taught him to throw a regular curve. But it wasn't as effective. Plus he would throw it to batters he should have smoked.

He learned his lesson when a girl smoked a hanger off the fence. The girl did turn out to be a very good softball player. But I remindeed him for a about six years. Remember when ....

Sounds to me he would be more in line with an OBGYN.

Recently a study was done of a little league team, where each kid had an MRI preseason and postseason. The results were 30 percent t had micro tears in their elbow. This was not dependent on pitchers or catchers or curveball. It was simply from overuse. Plenty of evidence to support kids should shut it down for long periods to allow healing.

Dospeloteros posted:

Recently a study was done of a little league team, where each kid had an MRI preseason and postseason. The results were 30 percent t had micro tears in their elbow. This was not dependent on pitchers or catchers or curveball. It was simply from overuse. Plenty of evidence to support kids should shut it down for long periods to allow healing.

The consensus has become pitching too frequently (possible for multiple teams) is more of an issue than the curve. 

When a pitcher pitches micro tears develop in their arm. Proper rest heals the micro tears. Lack of rest prevents them from healing and becoming a bigger problem. 

And personally I am not a huge fan of kids focusing a ton on pitching when young. I have seen so many kids that were great at 12 and peaked at 14. When you are in high school and fully developed then you have an idea of what kind of pitcher you can be. 

RJM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

So what you are really saying is you get off going to LL games and causing arguments with fans who are already a little ticked off because they are losing??? Do you also bet on these games or handicap youth sports as well? 

So what are you saying? You have nothing better to do today than launch a personal attack on another poster rather than ask a relevant question? 

I love how you claim it's a personal attack...I am merely pointing out that you seem to have stated you expressly go to little league games because "Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district."

So, that tells me more about you than the doctor you speak of in the story who told you "you don't know what you are talking about." I'm not putting words in your mouth, you essentially came on here and said you like to watch people get upset when they lose. It's a bush-league thing to do, in my opinion. You can get upset with me for pointing it out to you, that's fine, but you came on here and to brag about  taking pleasure in the disappointment of others, that is really the story you seemed to paint.

Not a personal attack...just a comment on the "story within the story" you posted.

Remember that the NFHS brought in pitch counts for high school baseball, but youth baseball and travel/select/showcase baseball do not have limits in place nationally....

I'm sure it'd be a very unpopular thought but what about this.... go to machine-pitch games instead of kid-pitch until a later period (8U/9U/10U??)?? Think about how much overuse could be eliminated that way....

Little League imposed pitch counts nationally in 2007.

Bulldog 19 posted:

Remember that the NFHS brought in pitch counts for high school baseball, but youth baseball and travel/select/showcase baseball do not have limits in place nationally....

I'm sure it'd be a very unpopular thought but what about this.... go to machine-pitch games instead of kid-pitch until a later period (8U/9U/10U??)?? Think about how much overuse could be eliminated that way....

I'm totally for that. Not only for overuse but for sanity. I've been involved in youth ball for over 30 years. Up until 10 years ago or so, only a few places started kid pitch at 8u. Most waited until 9u. I've dealt extensively under both systems. When kid pitch begins at 8u, it's like watching paint dry. I hate it. Tons of walks and hit batters. If not walks then swing and miss. The kids get very little defensive work because so few balls are out into play. Heck, even i a well-pitched inning, a kid might throw 40 pitches. Just waiting that extra year to 9u seemed to make a huge difference in the game. I think even between 8 and 9 there are huge gains in physical maturity, especially with coordination. I'd love to see 8u and maybe 9u go back to more machine pitc - not coach pitch (hate that).

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

So what you are really saying is you get off going to LL games and causing arguments with fans who are already a little ticked off because they are losing??? Do you also bet on these games or handicap youth sports as well? 

So what are you saying? You have nothing better to do today than launch a personal attack on another poster rather than ask a relevant question? 

I love how you claim it's a personal attack...I am merely pointing out that you seem to have stated you expressly go to little league games because "Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district."

So, that tells me more about you than the doctor you speak of in the story who told you "you don't know what you are talking about." I'm not putting words in your mouth, you essentially came on here and said you like to watch people get upset when they lose. It's a bush-league thing to do, in my opinion. You can get upset with me for pointing it out to you, that's fine, but you came on here and to brag about  taking pleasure in the disappointment of others, that is really the story you seemed to paint.

Not a personal attack...just a comment on the "story within the story" you posted.

Given your interpretation you've established it's a reading comprehension issue. Once again, you could have asked questions instead of making ASSumptions. You've completely misinterpreted the situation. 

JCG posted:

Little League imposed pitch counts nationally in 2007.

You would have a better idea than I would (I graduated high school that year lol). But Little League may have it, but how much of all of the select baseball and whatnot follows Little League rules? And how many of those Little League pitchers are playing in a second or third team as well as their LL team? That's where it continues to be a major problem..

Pretty sure Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth instituted pitch counts this season as well.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RJM posted:

Florida State Fan posted:

Any chance his son was on the opposing team?

His son wasn't. I don't know if his grandson was. But some of the others commenting were from the host league. The kid shut down their slugging team and eliminated them in the semi finals of districts. They see the kid as the reason they're not at states. The umpire had a tight strike zone on the outside that game. Their pitchers continued to pound the outside and issue walks. This kid stopped going outside unless he wanted to be outside the strike zone. 

Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district. 

So what you are really saying is you get off going to LL games and causing arguments with fans who are already a little ticked off because they are losing??? Do you also bet on these games or handicap youth sports as well? 

So what are you saying? You have nothing better to do today than launch a personal attack on another poster rather than ask a relevant question? 

I love how you claim it's a personal attack...I am merely pointing out that you seem to have stated you expressly go to little league games because "Part of the entertainment is picking the favorite then sitting on the other side to see how they handle losing after getting this far. This is states. The team this kid shut down has more talent. But my gut told me he would shut them down. He shut down the best team in the state in the district final.

For added entertainment the team from the district that lost detests the district that beat them. One is the dominant district. They usually knock out the other district."

So, that tells me more about you than the doctor you speak of in the story who told you "you don't know what you are talking about." I'm not putting words in your mouth, you essentially came on here and said you like to watch people get upset when they lose. It's a bush-league thing to do, in my opinion. You can get upset with me for pointing it out to you, that's fine, but you came on here and to brag about  taking pleasure in the disappointment of others, that is really the story you seemed to paint.

Not a personal attack...just a comment on the "story within the story" you posted.

I don't know that he's saying he likes to watch people get upset. Different teams handle things differently. Shocking, but some teams handle losing with grace and still appreciate their kids and their coaches. Like most of us, I'm sure, I like to think my team is one of them.

RJM posted:

roothog66 posted:

I had my kid start throwing curve balls at 9 almost exclusively because I thought it helped alleviate  the stress of throwing fastball after fastball. I saw the curve as a mechanism to give his arm a rest from greater stresses. Many others I ran into cautioned me on how I was going to ruin his arm. I just didn't see it that way.

Back in LL people told me I was ruining my son's arm letting him throw curves. He threw a knuckle curve. I explained it was nothing but grip. The response would be "a curve is a curve." I taught him to throw a regular curve. But it wasn't as effective. Plus he would throw it to batters he should have smoked.

He learned his lesson when a girl smoked a hanger off the fence. The girl did turn out to be a very good softball player. But I remindeed him for a about six years. Remember when ....

Just curious how much of different pitches is different grips? My son spent an evening showing me how he throws different pitches and it seemed like most of it was in how tight he held the ball and how he angled his fingers around it. I couldn't really see how any of that could hurt his arm (other than throwing it really hard, which seems painful to begin with.)

I think probably nobody knows what they are talking about when it comes to 'what makes the UCL tear'.

Everyone is now counting pitches, and icing, and chanting to the gods, and ... 'injuries are on the rise'.

SultanofSwat posted:

I think probably nobody knows what they are talking about when it comes to 'what makes the UCL tear'.

Everyone is now counting pitches, and icing, and chanting to the gods, and ... 'injuries are on the rise'.

Well the fact that 1000's of players can now throw over 90 compared to a few who could a 20 years ago might have something to do with the injury rise???

real green posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

I think probably nobody knows what they are talking about when it comes to 'what makes the UCL tear'.

Everyone is now counting pitches, and icing, and chanting to the gods, and ... 'injuries are on the rise'.

Well the fact that 1000's of players can now throw over 90 compared to a few who could a 20 years ago might have something to do with the injury rise???

OK, so with that said, here's a different take... 

-far more players getting instruction on mechanics that allow them to maximize their ability to throw harder.

-far more players can now throw over 90. 

-injuries are on the rise.

Does that mean that maybe good mechanics can be dangerous?

cabbagedad posted:

real green posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

I think probably nobody knows what they are talking about when it comes to 'what makes the UCL tear'.

Everyone is now counting pitches, and icing, and chanting to the gods, and ... 'injuries are on the rise'.

Well the fact that 1000's of players can now throw over 90 compared to a few who could a 20 years ago might have something to do with the injury rise???

OK, so with that said, here's a different take... 

-far more players getting instruction on mechanics that allow them to maximize their ability to throw harder.

-far more players can now throw over 90. 

-injuries are on the rise.

Does that mean that maybe good mechanics can be dangerous?

Don't be so quick to jump on the notion that injuries are on the rise. The only proof offered is a rise in the rate of TJ surgeries. A rise in the rate of a particular treatment method cannot be logically used as proof of an increase in injuries. It is like saying a rise in artificial transplants proves an increase in heart disease. It just means that the surgery has become more accessible and more common. That's all that statistic proves - a ride in the use of TJ surgery.