Illegal bats

I've heard, but not seen, of some players being ejected. Seems to me for this first season, especially with all the confusion, the umps should just throw the bat out, not the player. Most don't even have a clear idea of the rule. Many umps can't get the infield fly or interference rules correct, let alone the legal/illegal bat rule.

I have played upper level adult softball for years and the illegal/doctored bat problem is out of control. When we play tournements ALL bats are checked. Any bat deemed legal is marked in a way to show the umps it has been checked. This eliminates any confusion. Umps could do this during their pregame bat check for this baseball season. Just a thought.

Seems the VHSL wants to make sure everyone knows just how seriously they take this rule, thus the ejection of a player if he uses an illegal bat. Notice the comments about the umps too.


Taken from a post at Vapreps by Vapreps...

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The VHSL included the following in their weekly update email to all coaches, administrators and media:

Players ejected and numerous illegal bat issues

Hopefully the following points will help define and clarify the importance of compliance with this rule:

Use of an illegal bat in a VHSL practice or contest might invalidate any catastrophic insurance in case of an injury.

Failure to abide by VHSL/NFHS rules will result in penalties from the League office.

Repeat offenses by the same player or school will be grounds for more significant penalties to those involved.

Umpires associations who fail to enforce this rule will lose post season playoff assignments and could face decertification as a VHSL recognized association if there is widespread and blatant disregard of compliance.

The VHSL is not recognizing the following BESR-ABI bats as compliant: Demarini CGF4, Demarini Vendetta C6, Combat B1AB2, Combat B1AB2-R, Combat B2AB1, Louisville Slugger TPX Dynasty CBXD, Louisville Slugger TPX Triton CBXT, Louisville Slugger TPX Catalyst CB81C, Louisville Slugger TPX Omaha CB83 and Louisville Slugger TPX Triton CB91T.

Why is this an umpire problem? Cheating players and coaches would be the place to start IMO. Not wanting to hear about how confusing this is. There is plenty of information about what's legal and illegal out there.

Maybe it's just racin...if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin.

Remember the George Brett pine tar HR?

The penalty (later overturned) was disqualification fo the bat and the batter declared out.

When did it escalate to ejection of the player?

If someone uses last year's bat and thinks it's OK, it's one thing to set them straight. Ejection seems like extreme overkill.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Why is this an umpire problem? Cheating players and coaches would be the place to start IMO. Not wanting to hear about how confusing this is. There is plenty of information about what's legal and illegal out there.

Maybe it's just racin...if you ain't cheatin you ain't tryin.

My guess is that is it not necessarily a player or coach purposely cheating. Rather that they thought the bat was legal. Umpires could be a bit proactive here, since it is a very new rule which is often misunderstood, by ALL involved...including the umpires. Our team has had umpires throw out bats at pregame inspection, only to be shown the legal bat list and having to overturn the decision.

My read on this is that it isn't so much a cheating issue, rather a safety issue. A harsh punishment to get your attention and ensure you do everything you can to comply.

I was a bit puzzled on the umpire angle too. Hard to tell if they are hinting that some associations were willfully following the NFHS rules and ignoring the VHSL rules or doing so because they didn't understand VHSL wasn't allowing the grandfathered bats.

At any rate, they were pretty clear in this last statement. If I am not mistaken, the bats they called out were the BESR Composites that the NFHS decided to grandfather in this year and are what caused most of the confusion.

I would like to hear from an ump in Virginia to get their take.

VHSL meeting has the coaches AND umpires in it. Coach ignorance feels pretty weak on this one to me.

My point is breaking the rules is a coach/player issue and not an umpire issue. It put this in the same catagory as ducking into pitches, roll blocks at second base or running outside the running lane at 1st base.

Clearly all violations that coaches either teach or wink at. It ain't cheatin if you don't get caught and then when you do..whine about the lousy umps.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
VHSL meeting has the coaches AND umpires in it. Coach ignorance feels pretty weak on this one to me.

My point is breaking the rules is a coach/player issue and not an umpire issue. It put this in the same catagory as ducking into pitches, roll blocks at second base or running outside the running lane at 1st base.

Clearly all violations that coaches either teach or wink at. It ain't cheatin if you don't get caught and then when you do..whine about the lousy umps.

Nobody is whining about umpires, lousy or not. They are getting paid to do a job and they blunder this rule as much as anyone else. My original point is that the umpires can be more proactive in this phasing in process.

Example: Umpire sees a kid approach an at bat with a illegal bat...maybe the ump missed in pregame inspection...maybe the 15yo kid forgot to put in for inspection...instead of ejecting the player, merely tell him the bat is not allowed and take it out of play. Is that so difficult?

But again the question really is whether or not is should be such a harsh penalty. Take the kid on our team for example. He wasn't trying to cheat, he obviously was wrong and made a mistake but it wasn't a player trying to cheat the system. He had the bat out for inspection along with all the other bats and it went through TWO pre-game inspections where the umps had no issues with it. He then went to the plate in the second game and the opposing coach waited until he got a hit and then called the umpire's attention to it. At that point what was the umpire going to do? He had clearly messed up in allowing it to go through on the pre-game inspection so he just claimed that he hadn't seen it, called it illegal and threw the kid out...

Ban the bat, call the kid out, but throwing him out for 3 games is pretty extreme...

1baseballdad - Absolutely true that the rules were changed for safety. Also no doubt old bats perform better.

I do know a number of umpires and they hate this. The standard comment before the game is to ask coaches if the players are properly and legally equipped. Coach says yes and play ball.

They fear that before every at bat they will be required to inspect bats. Guess why? Lawsuits. The next pitcher who takes a liner off the forehead from an illegal bat will have a couple of parents and a lawyer looking for someone to hold accountable. Umps, coaches and school districts will all come into the line of fire.

Umpires don't make rules. Can't blame the cop for the law you don't like. Talk to the lawmaker.

I'd hate to think of a game where umpires got to make the rules as they went along although a number of folks might say they do.

luv baseball,

As an umpire, I don’t like this rule. Do I think a 2 game suspension is excessive – YES. But that is what the VHSL has mandated. Umpires try to make sure that illegal bats are identified so that players don’t use them. I sure don’t want to eject a player, but if he uses an illegal bat I have to follow the VHSL and eject the player.

Now, I think the rule is relatively clear. Any BBCOR bat is legal, and only BESR metal barrel bats are legal. BESR composite barrel bats are illegal. The issue comes when the bat is not clearly identified as to what kind of material or if the barrel is metal and the handle is composite. Fortunately, I have an engineering degree and making this determination is a little easier. Also, an alloy barrel is metal. For example, there many different alloys of aluminum from your basic aluminum can to aircraft aluminum. A scandium alloy bat is also metal. So you can have a metal bat without it saying “Aluminum” on the barrel. However, I would say that the vast majority of umpires do not have materials knowledge to help them sort out the BESR bats.

I would guess that NFHS rule, with exempted BESR bats, would be more difficult since you have to have manufacturer and model numbers available. It will be nice when only BBCOR bats can be used as they do in college.

Randy

This is not an umpire problem - you can inspect bats all day long, but that doesn't mean, a different bat can't be pulled out of a bat bag.

This is a SCHOOL, COACH, and PLAYER issue only. Not to mention, the ejection is not for one game, but TWO! So, you are only hurting yourself and team if you use one of these bats. And, as far, as a player using it and saying they didn't know - JUST ASK SOMEONE - if they don't know - then use one that you know is LEGAL until you get a correct ruling on the bat in question.

Have you seen the list of non-approved bats - no one can remember all of these. In my opinion, if they want to make changes to make the game safer, then just make the change to wood - PERIOD. No confusion!

I am in no way putting blame on the umpires for enforcing the rule. The rule is excessive, especially for the first year. Just my opinion.

As I stated in the thread on the new bats, I wish they would just go with wood bats as well. Then we could argue if the wood/composite combo bats are legal or not! ))))))))))))))

Agreed, it is not an umpire's problem, unless of course they look at the bat in pre-game and then ban the same bat a few moments later along with suspending the kid. Then it sort of is an umpire problem but I digress...

The real issue is that the penalty is pretty extreme. If the league was as concerned about safety as they proclaim then there would have been no phasing in period. They would have either gone to wood or to BBCOR straight away. We all know that they sacrificed safety in order to appease the bat makers. So in doing that then why would they then slam a player who "obviously cares nothing about the safety of his fellow competitors by using one of these banned bats"! Sounds a little "high on the horse" for me...

As I said, call the kid out, ban the bat and carry on with the game. Anything else is just plain idiotic...

Luv Baseball, your comment on the lawsuits is exactly what I was thinking too. To me, it just felt like the VHSL comments were almost a CYA type of statement "for the record".

I really think the penalty is pretty harsh as well, at least for a first time offender. I wouldn’t even be against them confiscating the bat and returning it after the season is over.

One thing for certain...it gets a lot easier next year for all involved...until they change it again.

I think once you make such rule you have headed down a slippery slope.

Everyone has to know you are serious and usually that takes having in place some harsh consequences.

I guess where VHSL has put itself with this safety related rule is if a kid gets injured from a batted ball that is hit with an illegal bat someone will be answering some serious questions. An the one askin the questions may be one of those guys you see on TV that are looking to collect 30-40% of what he can recover!

I am bginning to wonder....maybe the solution was to change the ball instead of the bat?

And again, if safety was their issue then make the rule and get on with it but they decided to cave under the pressure of bat manufacturers who stood to lose a ton so they compromised. I would say that a smart lawyer would see that as well and hammer them if a kid got hurt by a bat that will be banned next year.

Is it the same suspension for using anything else that is illegal? I just think that calling a kid out, or hell even tossing him from THAT game would be enough but don't get hard with the kids when you didn't have the guts to be tough with the bat makers.

I don't see how that is caving in to the bat manufacturers...I'm sure they would have preferred the NFHS and VHSL to make folks buy new bats this year...

Sure, there will be some left over inventory, but with the rule out, most folks I know were not purchasing a new bat this year unless they had to...changing the rule early would have forced them to buy...

I'd say it is more like caving in to economics and parent pressure to not have to purchase this year...

unless you have a composite barrel bat last year was no reason to buy a new on thjis year...i personally was relieved VHSL did what they did ...anmd you are right, bat manfacturers would jhave benefitted more had
vhsl adopted the college rules

I am happy to see this strig veer into the proper direction for critism which is the VHSL and not the men in blue.

Those gentlemen take enough about their eyesight, intelegence, motives and heritage. Almost all of it is undeserved.

The new model bats were already out and so would have been sent back unsold. This allowed bat manu's to go ahead and sell the inventory that was already out there and then make the money next year when everyone is forced to buy new bats. Granted there are many that have not bought a new bat but there was a huge amount of people whose sons were using composite (I am one) who had to buy an interim bat and now will have to purchase another bat next year. Couple that with the folks who simply had to replace a worn out bat this year and again, same situation, they are buying two bats. Had the rule gone into effect this year I, and everyone else who bought a new bat this year for whatever reason, would have simply bought a new BBCOR and been done with it...

They were already going to profit off the sale of the new BBCOR bats anyway but they stood to lose a ton of money on the non-BBCOR inventory sitting in the warehouse had the new rules gone into effect this year...

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
I am happy to see this strig veer into the proper direction for critism which is the VHSL and not the men in blue.

Those gentlemen take enough about their eyesight, intelegence, motives and heritage. Almost all of it is undeserved.

I don't think that it really ever was directed on the guys in blue. In our case I felt that it was a little upsetting that the umps didn't either properly check the bats pre-game, and/or really know the rules until a coach started complaining, but I don't blame them for the ejection. The bat was illegal and the rule is clear. For me it has always been that the penalty for the player is much more harsh than it has to be for a rule that has obviously been confusing for players, coaches, parents and umps.