How important are the types of classes you take in high school in terms of acceptance to colleges? The more the AP and advanced classes the better?
I've seen a lot of references to GPA & ACT/SAT scores. What if a kid gets A's in easier classes but B's in advanced classes, the easier classes will help the overall GPA, right?
Asking in general. I would imagine for high academic they look at course curriculum but what about for State U?
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Well it depends on if the high school uses a weighted GPA scale. If they do, it would bring the AP B up to an A. If that is the case, the GPA won't be harmed. However, if it is an unweighted scale, all A's and B's are equal. I've read articles about this and all of the colleges said it is better to challenge yourself rather than just get free A's. At a high academic they would most likely recalculate the GPA on their own using a weighted scale. At a State school it would be less likely to recalculate a GPA but as long as you have a 3.5 and a decent SAT/ACT score the kid would have a great chance of getting in.
It honestly depends on the colleges that you son wants to go to. I have seen "Academic" colleges care that a student is not taking enough AP classes and then I have seen some colleges literally ignore the AP classes and not even apply the extra points in calculating GPA. A lot of colleges are moving towards applying scholarship money based off a kids SAT scores.
It depends on the school. Most schools I sent transcripts to never cared about anything other than my gpa and ACT scores. I did have a school deny me after I had committed because my class rank wasn't good enough though..
Athletes can usually have a coach get them through admissions. AP classes look good if you do well in them, however a C in an AP class will hurt your GPA when you could have gotten an A in a normal class.
That's a complicated subject. You'd be best to consult a school counselor or a private college consultant.
Top State U's (for example, UVA, Washington, Michigan, Cal, UNC) are going to expect just as high grades and rigorous curriculum as top privates. If you ask which is more important, rigor or grades, they'll say both.
Schools can be very different. For example, here in CA a kid who takes all academic course (no AP) and gets a 4.0 is note likely to get in to Cal, UCLA, etc. They're looking for more rigor. But a kid who gets a 4.0 with same cirriculum may have a better shot at getting into a very selective Cal State, such as San Diego State, than a kid who gets a weighted 4.0 by taking lots of AP's, because some of those B's go as 3 not 4.
In most cases AP courses are weighted, so an A on an AP course equals a 5 not a 4 - but each college or university has their own standards on that. In general, "honors" or advanced get no weight so they don't help a kid's GPA.
Like I said, it's very complicated.
(just MHO and in this case not factoring sports at all into my opinion)
3and2, my son's high school just announced for the class of 2022 and later they are going to (1) limit the number of AP or honors courses a kid can take -- no more than 2 sophomore year, 3 junior year, and 4 senior year; and (2) stop giving weights to honors and AP courses, so an A will count as a 4.0, same as a regular class. That will remove some of the incentive of taking an AP. To my mind, this is long overdue. It won't be a panacea, but it will help.
JCG is right - its complicated. Lets get some facts on the table....
1. Most colleges will recompute your GPA the way they want too - with the weighting they want to apply - they are trying to level the field for evaluation
2. Class rank may be more important than GPA in some cases
3. SAT/ACT scores matter, in some cases more than GPA or other factors - again, a leveling tool colleges use to evaluate (and avoid problems)
4. If you are the top 1 or 2 recruit at ANY school, the above requirements go down. How much? Depends on the school.
5. AP classes are very important to Stanford and others like them. They consistently push potential recruits to take them and they see them as a good indicator of how well prepared you are for college. And they want to see you challenging yourself. Get C's in them? NOT GOOD. Get A's in them? REALLY GOOD. B's? Might depend on the course, AP Math (not so bad), AP Psych (not so good).
justbaseball posted:JCG is right - its complicated. Lets get some facts on the table....
1. Most colleges will recompute your GPA the way they want too - with the weighting they want to apply - they are trying to level the field for evaluation
2. Class rank may be more important than GPA in some cases
3. SAT/ACT scores matter, in some cases more than GPA or other factors - again, a leveling tool colleges use to evaluate (and avoid problems)
4. If you are the top 1 or 2 recruit at ANY school, the above requirements go down. How much? Depends on the school.
5. AP classes are very important to Stanford and others like them. They consistently push potential recruits to take them and they see them as a good indicator of how well prepared you are for college. And they want to see you challenging yourself. Get C's in them? NOT GOOD. Get A's in them? REALLY GOOD. B's? Might depend on the course, AP Math (not so bad), AP Psych (not so good).
#1 was one of the reasons given by my son's high school to end the GPA weighting. I would say #3 is far more important than most schools are willing to admit.
3and2, there is great data here: https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/
Of course, being recruited changes the game from the data presented on that site. The vast majority of recruits to Stanford, Duke, the Ivies, etc. would have no shot -- none -- at getting in as a regular applicant. For a number of years I did alumni interviewing for a highly selective school and you would be shocked at the caliber of applicants who are rejected.
Thanks 2019Dad, that is one of the things we are really emphasizing with our freshman kid, the importance of grades.
What you bring to the table as a Baseball player is added to what you bring to the table as a student. No way around it.
It really remains to be seen whether our kid will be high academic or not, thus the open ended "general" tone of my question.
I know a couple of kids with top grades and nothing more than regular college track courses who played at Vanderbilt. It's all on a sliding scale. They were top PG baseball talents.
My kids high school doesn't add points to GPA for higher level courses. It is calculated for class rank. But the kids don't see it. They figure it out by comparing GPA's and knowing a kid with a lower GPA has a higher class rank.
The AP courses did matter for academic scholarships. Along the process coaches asked for unweighted GPA and what kinds of courses (honors, gifted, AP) they were taking.
Take the most rigorous classes in which you can do well. For AP classes, well is probably best defined by classes in which you expect to be able to do well enough on the test to get at least some college credit (ideally, a 4/5, but maybe a 3 in some cases). Getting a B isn't a deal breaker, but if you go in thinking you're unlikely to get an A, you might want to weigh the value of the class more carefully.
I know my son's schools of interest were very keen on his academic rigor, and I'm confident that those choices helped him when held up against his SAT/ACT scores, which while good were below median for his target schools. But past that, you're going to better prepared for whatever school you end up choosing if you've pushed yourself in HS and aren't subsequently shocked by what's required to be successful in college.
3and2Fastball posted:Thanks 2019Dad, that is one of the things we are really emphasizing with our freshman kid, the importance of grades.
What you bring to the table as a Baseball player is added to what you bring to the table as a student. No way around it.
It really remains to be seen whether our kid will be high academic or not, thus the open ended "general" tone of my question.
Like many of those whose parents are on this board, my 2017 was fortunate enough to have baseball abilities that created opportunities that he would not have had based on GPA and test scores alone.
But what if he had gotten injured or lost his love of the game, or simply was not a good enough player?
IMHO, and in my experience, parents telling kids about the importance of grades doesn't cut it. If I had it to do over again, I'd take both of our children to see a college counselor before their sophomore year at the latest so they could get a cold dose of reality from a professional, not not a parent.
As others mentioned it depends on the school. There is virtually no way you are going to get into a top state school, ivy, or high academic school without taking any AP or Honors courses. These schools factor academic rigor as well as the quality of the HS into their admissions decisions.
As you start to move down the scale the academic rigor factor will start to loosen up, but even at the level just below the top schools you will still need to show some rigor.
For instance, you are not getting into UofMich with a 3.8 and very little Honors/AP classes. A 3.8 (unweighted) with a very challenging HS class load of almost all Honor/AP classes and your in. Now step down to MSU (sorry Im a Sparty, but will admit its tougher to get into UofM) . A 3.8 with very little Honors/AP classes will probably get you in. A 3.5 with lots of Honors/AP will get you in, but a 3.5 with no Honors/AP will probably keep you out. Now drop down even more. CMU, 3.5 no/few honors classes, your probably in.
My suggestion. If there are a few schools you are interested in, call the admissions office and talk to them. They will be able to let you know what is important in the decision process.
I can't speak to the importance of AP for admissions. I will say the more challenging helped keep my son interested in high school. Also, several of the teachers who offered AP classes also structured their classes as dual enrollment--so kids got community college credit for the classes. THAT is worth three hours of college credit, even if it's just knocking off an elective or two.
3and2Fastball posted:How important are the types of classes you take in high school in terms of acceptance to colleges? The more the AP and advanced classes the better?
I've seen a lot of references to GPA & ACT/SAT scores. What if a kid gets A's in easier classes but B's in advanced classes, the easier classes will help the overall GPA, right?
Asking in general. I would imagine for high academic they look at course curriculum but what about for State U?
Depends. My son was recruited at BIG STATE U and the Ivy League. With the AP Classes he took and scores on AP tests he could have graduated from the state school in 3 1/2 years. In the Ivy league they look for the breadth/depth of classes to challenge the student, in order to adequately prepare students for the rigors of a degree at a High Academic School. While the Ivy recognizes the AP's, very rarely do you "place out of a course." You are just going to take a different requirement or in foreign language be placed at a higher level. Am noticing with my younger (non-athlete) son that what high school you attend (curriculum/reputation) also factors in with admissions at certain schools which schools have rapport.
Is it weird that I am on this website during my AP class?
Well the way my AP classes are is that they are Pass or Fail, so if you get a D- you still pass, My school did this because students were afraid that it would hurt their GPA, but lately they told me that they do care about AP grades and we might have to change it to the normal system. Hopefully this can help someone in someway
I spoke with my son's guidance counselor, and she said that his HS does not weight grades in AP/Honors classes. She says that most colleges will look more highly at a "B" in an honors class than an "A" in a regular class.
Does that jive with what you guys have found?
Here;s one person's opinion on importance of AP classes. A link below from Yale's RC, who seems to indicate need to take AP Test in addition to Class. The HS I teach at has made AP Tests optional for seniors.
3and2Fastball posted:I spoke with my son's guidance counselor, and she said that his HS does not weight grades in AP/Honors classes. She says that most colleges will look more highly at a "B" in an honors class than an "A" in a regular class.
Does that jive with what you guys have found?
From what I saw going through the college admissions process with my sons the way a HS weighs the grades doesn't really matter. Most colleges will take the grades and "strip them down" into their format for admissions. The quotes are around "strip them down" because thats a term we heard over and over. Basically it means the schools will recalculate your GPA based on their standards, not the standards your HS uses. So if your school weights the AP and Honors classes and you get a 5.0 in the class they will may use the 5.0 or may recalculate it to something different based on their standards.
Someone touched on this above, but some schools will also take into account the academic standards/reputation of your HS when making a decision. Our HS is consistently rated in the top 100 in the country, and has a reputation for preparing students for college. As I was looking through the charts showing the GPAs and test scores against the acceptance rate for many schools I noticed that many of our students with boarderline grades/scores were able to get into many of the schools. Higher then the schools normal average for these students.
Ripken Fan posted:Depends. My son was recruited at BIG STATE U and the Ivy League. With the AP Classes he took and scores on AP tests he could have graduated from the state school in 3 1/2 years. In the Ivy league they look for the breadth/depth of classes to challenge the student, in order to adequately prepare students for the rigors of a degree at a High Academic School. While the Ivy recognizes the AP's, very rarely do you "place out of a course." You are just going to take a different requirement or in foreign language be placed at a higher level. Am noticing with my younger (non-athlete) son that what high school you attend (curriculum/reputation) also factors in with admissions at certain schools which schools have rapport.
We didn't look exhaustively, but this seemed to be the case with my son at all of the high-academic schools. AP credits were good to place further down the path in a discipline (so he started almost as a junior in math), but they aren't really shortening the overall course of study. He'll still have to take 4 full years of classes, though he'll have the option to knock off a spring class or two over the years if he wants, but it'll be much easier for him to double (or heaven forbid, triple) major if he wants to, or if he wasn't already interested in doing that it would be easier for him to explore things he was interested in outside his major while maintaining whatever major he wanted.
At local state schools, even the big ones, all of the AP credits would have allowed him to start at something like mid-way through sophomore year, and graduate in 2.5-3 years, which would have been valuable pocketbook-wise, though managing 4 years of baseball eligibility in that case would have been a separate quandary.
Any type of upper academic school (including many state schools these days) will put far more value on the rigor of the courses you took than your particular GPA. A kid who gets a 4.0 in remedial subjects is going to have no shot against kids with an unweighted 3.5 in all honors and AP courses.
The college admissions office wants students that have a good chance of graduating successfully, not students that can barely get through the door. AP courses are generally seen as college level work (some actually harder than college in my son's experience). If you can do well in those courses, and on the exams - admissions officers have greater confidence that you can handle the college workload.
Depending on your target school, passing the AP exams can end up saving you a good chunk of money. My son's school gave him 12 credit hours for his passed tests. That's a full semester less that he has to attend (and pay for). He picked up another 24 credit hours for dual enrollment courses. If everything works out right he will be able to pick up his master's at the same time as he would have normally gotten his bachelor's .
I think it also depends on how competitive the program is and how good it is academically. A great academic school that is not so competitive might prefer the guy taking the easy classes so that they can present good players with great grades not asking for the story behind it.
So basically we have to hatch geniuses as well as being a stud player. My kid can get some distance with the leg. Think he can get a free ride as a D1 3 point specialist?
Elijah posted:So basically we have to hatch geniuses as well as being a stud player.
To be fair, the stud player part really isn't that important.
And, for the purposes of getting into a plus academic school anyway, geniuses are made, not born.
Make As in AP classes and there are no worries. Set the bar high, parents. Don't sell your kid short.
Going to be devil's advocate here. I've heard "there is no honor in honors!" and have come to believe that this can be true. If you go to a big public HS, then you may have to take honors and APs to prove academic rigor, but if you go to a well regarded private school, you may be OK in regular classes.
AP classes can be overrated in my personal opinion, with the rat race to take as many as possible, and worn like badges of honor (I'm in 5 AP classes!). If your goal is a high academic college, it is likely they will not give you any credits and just use the AP score to place you in a higher level starter class. Many elite colleges have also gone soft on their testing requirements, not even requiring subject or AP scores anymore. Guys like Tucker Frawley of Yale say it is important to take APs, because a good AP score can boost your academic index. My 2017 did not even send his subject or AP scores to schools.
Many elite colleges say, when asked if it is better to take the AP and get the B or not take AP and get the A, they answer cutely Get the A in the AP. Depending on the school, mix of curriculum, one does not always have to take the higher level classes. Just my opinion.
One other thing, college applications have been increasing. The demographics are changing given the common app and the increasing number of international applications. Yet college admissions departments are not increasing by the same size. If you think some of the schools have time to recalculate everyone's GPA...yes maybe for some, but not happening for everyone, everywhere. Didn't USC get 56,000 applications?
jacjacatk posted:Elijah posted:So basically we have to hatch geniuses as well as being a stud player.
To be fair, the stud player part really isn't that important.
And, for the purposes of getting into a plus academic school anyway, geniuses are made, not born.
With the money I am spending on baseball, the stud part is high on my list. With the amount of time demanded of collegiate baseball players, they should be getting full scholarships.
Elijah posted:With the money I am spending on baseball, the stud part is high on my list.
For ROI, you (and I) should have spent the money on tutors and other academic pursuits. Spending money on baseball and expecting academic value from it is like buying a lottery ticket.
Another advantage of all the HS AP classes is better preparation for the time crunch college ball will impose on an academic schedule. Maybe the calculus is different for a D1 stud/pro prospect, but anyone else who's playing ball without their eye firmly focused on the real prize, is making poor long-term decisions.
jacjacatk posted:Elijah posted:With the money I am spending on baseball, the stud part is high on my list.
For ROI, you (and I) should have spent the money on tutors and other academic pursuits. Spending money on baseball and expecting academic value from it is like buying a lottery ticket.
Another advantage of all the HS AP classes is better preparation for the time crunch college ball will impose on an academic schedule. Maybe the calculus is different for a D1 stud/pro prospect, but anyone else who's playing ball without their eye firmly focused on the real prize, is making poor long-term decisions.
All great points. Nothing we can do about spending the money. Academies are expensive. They generate quality exposure; have better contacts. My kids are in a hybrid/homeschool situation. Small class. Very smart and dedicated teachers. I am leaning towards not putting my son into a public high school so it looks as though he will need to knock the SAT/ACT out of the park and have some mighty impressive extra circulars. Outside of that, I need to research what others have done in my situation.
Elijah posted:All great points. Nothing we can do about spending the money. Academies are expensive. They generate quality exposure; have better contacts. My kids are in a hybrid/homeschool situation. Small class. Very smart and dedicated teachers. I am leaning towards not putting my son into a public high school so it looks as though he will need to knock the SAT/ACT out of the park and have some mighty impressive extra circulars. Outside of that, I need to research what others have done in my situation.
Can't help you there, mine was in public schools his whole life, and giant highly academically ranked ones at that, so we didn't have to worry too much about proving his bona fides on that front. I will say that his only extracurricular of note was baseball, and we were concerned that would be a factor in college admissions, but we were mostly told that it's not so much breadth of extracurriculars as depth, and that a consistent dedication to one or two backed up with academic success was just as good if not better than the check every box on the resume approach. For whatever that's worth.
joes87 posted:
For instance, you are not getting into UofMich with a 3.8 and very little Honors/AP classes. A 3.8 (unweighted) with a very challenging HS class load of almost all Honor/AP classes and your in.
I am very certain if you are a talented athlete whom the coach of a varsity sport at Michigan likes and you have 3.8 with ZERO Honors credits you will be successfully admitted about 99.99% or slightly higher.
The first "filter" a coach is going to look at is his athletic ability. If he doesn't have that he isn't considered. If he has the athletic makeup then proceed to the next step.
The second filter is academic and that is determined by Admissions policy through the coach. Depending on where the academic bar is then rigor and results are used. The most difficult academic schools to be admitted (acceptance rates under 15%) consider the students desire to be challenged academically by taking the most rigorous classes possible and walking away with top grades in those classes. Again depending on the school in question, you may have to figure out where on that academic continuum is by asking the coach or talking to folks that attended the school. Typically there is wiggle room with some athletes by admission, and again the degree of wiggle room varies considerably. I know in the Ivy League there is a one standard deviation allowed between an incoming class and a recruited athlete. In my personal experiences with nearby State U's (in baseball) there is much more than one standard deviation between incoming students and recruited baseball players. Your mileage may vary.
Hopefully, that helps answer your question.
BTW...I have two sons who went through the same magnet high school for engineering. One went to an ivy and the other to a very good State U in the ACC. Both graduated with mechanical engineering majors and material science minors. The Ivy son did not transfer any APs despite having passed 5 AP Exams with 4 or more. The ACC son was able to transfer all 5 of his AP Exam credits. The Ivy son graduated in 4 years. The ACC son could have graduated in 3.5 but decided to work on a year long senior project that was a collaboration between his school and future employer. The AP credit recognition is a major policy differentiator between my sons schools (private and public). Since both of my sons were partially on the hook financially, this could have had an impact on their wallets and mine.
As always, JMO.
Lots of good info already so just sharing a recent experience. At state school we recently spoke with...academic money is based on calculation which includes unweighted core course GPA, unweighted class rank, ACT/SAT. My son's weighted GPA is 4 tenths higher but has zero impact on how much academic money he receives. So in this case it is better for a student to get an A in a core course then a B in an honors/AP core course. I don't think we would change things because I think AP courses give students a clearer picture of college course workload. However, if goal does not include high academic schools or student is struggling in stronger academic courses then AP/honors may not be best fit and/or will have a negative impact on academic $$$. Again, just experience with one state school.
old_school posted:joes87 posted:
For instance, you are not getting into UofMich with a 3.8 and very little Honors/AP classes. A 3.8 (unweighted) with a very challenging HS class load of almost all Honor/AP classes and your in.
I am very certain if you are a talented athlete whom the coach of a varsity sport at Michigan likes and you have 3.8 with ZERO Honors credits you will be successfully admitted about 99.99% or slightly higher.
Agreed, but I was speaking from an academic point of view, not athletic. I was admitted to UofM back in the '80s with a 2.79 GPA, 32 ACT. I was a pretty good high jumper in my day. Problem was, they wanted to control what classes I took and what my degree was going to be.
baseball mom2020 posted:3and2Fastball posted:I spoke with my son's guidance counselor, and she said that his HS does not weight grades in AP/Honors classes. She says that most colleges will look more highly at a "B" in an honors class than an "A" in a regular class.
Does that jive with what you guys have found?
Thats what my daughters counselor told us, but we found that most of the schools she applied to wanted SAT sores, Class rank and unweighted GPA. Some of her friends that did not take AP had better class ranks than she did because of B's that she got in AP class. Now my son is in high school and I still don't know what the right answer is....
I am a HS teacher and would like to share that I recently spoke with an adviser from one of our local engineering schools. She told me that they want to see rigor but if an AP course is hurting a student's unweighted GPA, it will better serve that student to take a less rigorous class and get the A. Obviously with a top engineering school, students are going to need to challenge themselves with higher level math courses but it makes absolutely no sense to have that same student take an AP Lang Comp course and get a B if that same student can take English Comp and get an A. If your son wants to attend a high academic school then rigor is important but high academic schools...with some exceptions...want to see a great unweighted GPA and high test scores. If you sprinkle in a some AP coursework in classes where student is strong then good chance that your son will have a great unweighted GPA with a slightly higher weighted GPA and will attract the attention of high academic schools. If you have questions about specific schools, pick up the phone and call an adviser. They are the absolute best resource and in my experience very willing to share info that will point you in the right direction.
No one size fits all answer for sure. I think we all want our kids to go to the best academic school possible where they will succeed and be prepared for life and the next 40 years. I would say that you know your kid best, know what their goals are, and much like baseball, should have a realistic view of their academic ability. Not all kids want to go to an Ivy/high academic or even if they got in, would do well there. There are many great state and regional universities not named Big State U that will prepare the kids for life after baseball and give them a great education. Much like the travel ball mantra of "be on the best team you can be on and play", go to the best university where you can succeed, get a great education, and be prepared so you can meet your life goals. Not all kids are destined to be brain surgeons or rocket scientists, but they can get wonderful educations without the added stress of overloading on AP courses in high school. Now, for those with the very high academic goals and abilities, take as many AP classes and as much rigor as your school has. Guide and push them academically, but keep it balanced with realistic goals and expectations. I bet there are a large percentage of very successful people on here who did not go to the very top academic schools but are doing very well in life. JMO
