incorrect jersey number on line-up card

Dan, not an umpire, don't pretend to be one, but it may depend on under what rules the game was being played.  In my opinion the proper call was made.  Once the team noticed the OOO situation they appealed and the ump made the right call.  I always go with jersey numbers on my score cards as being the proper order.  I don't know the kids and could care less if the coach gives me their names.  In my mind the jersey numbers are what I follow when I notice an OOO situation.

OBR:

6.01
(a) Each player of the offensive team shall bat in the order that his name appears in his team’s batting order.

The name is what counts.  Of course this is assuming names were listed - which they are supposed to be.

Same in FED and NCAA -- it's the name that matters.

And, to the OP, it doesn't matter that they had "batted in the same order through out the game".  If it had been illegal, batting in that order once does not make it legal.  The defense can wait until it's to their advantage to make the appeal

Assuming Babe Ruth uses a modified OBR, if the payers batted in order by name, the the ruling was incorrect.  The numbers should have just been corrected on the lineup card and play on.

Guess I learned something.  Which is funny as I would say at least half the other teams only give us jersey numbers not names and numbers.

Originally Posted by joes87:

Guess I learned something.  Which is funny as I would say at least half the other teams only give us jersey numbers not names and numbers.

What venue are you talking about? I’ve been scoring locally at levels from LLI minors to college for almost 20 years and have never gotten a lineup card with only jersey numbers on it. The one I see the lower and more informally the game is being played is first names instead of last names.

When I get a lineup card in a spring season HS game without uni numbers, positions, and both 1^st and last names, I go back to the coach and simply ask him to get them for me. I’ve never had anyone not do it, even though they get a little torqued at being asked.

So how is an umpire to know who the players are by name if there are no names on the jerseys?  In a local league - where everyone knows everyone, not a problem... in a HS game where you know no players by name / face - that would be difficult.

As soon as you suspect there's a BOO appeal coming (and you will know it), ask R1 (or whoever) -- "hey -- what's your last name?"  The chances of them thinking quickly enough to give whoever they BOO for (if they did) are almost none.

It can provide for some issues, but I look at it this way - It's not the umpire's job to know who the players are.  As was suggested you can try to extract the information from the players - they will usually tip the hand.

Travel ball.  Half of the time I got a score card with only numbers on it.  I really didn't have a need to know the kids names, just the jersey numbers so I could tell if they where OOO.  

Originally Posted by joes87:

Travel ball.  Half of the time I got a score card with only numbers on it.  I really didn't have a need to know the kids names, just the jersey numbers so I could tell if they where OOO.  

In light of what you’ve been told here, I strongly suggest doing what I do, and ask the coach to put in the names too. It isn’t a matter of what you NEED, it’s a matter of doing what’s called for in the rules and teaching coaches who don’t know them what they say. In the end you’d be improving everyone’s experience by not reducing yourself to their level.

A line-up card for a rec babe ruth game - now that's a novel concept! ;-)  Are you guys going book to book, yes - great! Legally equipped? Good sportsmanship? Ground rules... let's play ball. Please be sure to have your players hustle on and off the field - have your team conferences on the way in, not the way out... Otherwise, I'll be overly aware of the 1 minute timed from the last out for those 5 warm-up pitches... Please have someone ready to warm up your pitcher too! Chase after foul balls so we can keep the game moving.

BOO is so far down on the list of things that are important...  Seems like the defense "knew" pretty early on, but "chose" to only question at a particular time (questionable sportsmanship activity)...

TBH - the *coaches* know the players and choosing this particular time is suspect. Going by name is the right approach if it's possible to figure out. I've seen more cases of lower level coaches putting just the first name of the player on the lineup card. I've never had one that had just numbers. That should have to be rejected at the plate conference due to not completely following game preliminary procedures.

I'm with Joe on this.  In most travel ball games I don't know the opposing kids anyway so the only way to identify them is by number.  Asking for and adding names is extra work and no extra value.  I'm not there to teach the other coaches anything anyway.

That is the difference between travel ball / tournament ball and HS ball.  Each league has their own rules.. batt 9 with subs, 10 with EH... EH is a defensive position - EH is not a defensive position... Bat entire lineup free defensive subs.  Never consistent from one league to another.  In travel ball I ask who the home team is at ground rules.. then announce that they are the official book.  No lineups maintained by umps.  The only thing I track is score and pitchers.  In most travel ball games, if a pitcher is removed, even if he is moved to RF for 1 batter, he can not return to the mound.  And score which is checked with both teams every 1/2 inning.  Never had a problem.

Originally Posted by Smitty28:

I'm with Joe on this.  In most travel ball games I don't know the opposing kids anyway so the only way to identify them is by number.  Asking for and adding names is extra work and no extra value.  I'm not there to teach the other coaches anything anyway.

How much WORK is it to put a 1^st name, last name, uniform number, and fielding position on a freaking lineup card? If that too much work for you, find another endeavor. Any time you choose to knowingly ignore the rules, not to mention tradition, you’re choosing to hurt the game and should be ashamed. As a coach you’re not just representing the team, or the players, you’re representing the game. Sorry if that sounds old fashioned an out of time, but that’s exactly why there’s so many people in the game now who are so ignorant about it.

Sorry if that’s offensive, but it is how I feel about it.

Stats - dunno if you've actually attended many travel games but sometimes you've got less than zero time to get from one field to another, meet at the plate, and begin play.  

That said, when I was doing youth travel I always did find time to get a proper lineup card filled out, but I really didn't care what I got in return, as in most cases you're dealing with EH's and open substitution so BOO is of zero concern.

If there is a discrepancy....ask the offending team to show you their scorebook from previous games.  If "Smith" was #6 in every game then I guess that's his name.  If Smith was #5 one game...#11 another and #8 in another...then you've got a problem.  In 8+ years of coaching I would never accept an opponent lineup card without a # and last name. 

Originally Posted by JCG:

Stats - dunno if you've actually attended many travel games but sometimes you've got less than zero time to get from one field to another, meet at the plate, and begin play.  

That said, when I was doing youth travel I always did find time to get a proper lineup card filled out, but I really didn't care what I got in return, as in most cases you're dealing with EH's and open substitution so BOO is of zero concern.

I don’t mean this as being disrespectful to anyone, but rather just asking a question.

Travel game or not, zero time or not, what’s stops a coach from presenting a proper lineup card and demanding one in return? What will they do, make you forfeit if you’re a few minutes late to the pre-game meeting?

No, but they might start the timer on your game.

Don't worry about being offensive, that's just who you are, you can't help it.

How much work is it?  Obviously not a lot, but if I'm handed a line up sheet from the coaches that have only numbers, that's what I'll use.  If they give me first names I'll add that.  If they give me last names I'll use that. It's not worth it to me to chase down the rest of the information, and it's not worth anything to anyone else at the field.  Is this ignoring the rules?  I don't know, but if the umpire is ok with it then who am I to argue.

Am I ignoring tradition?  I don't know any traditions about keeping a score book so really can't answer.  Am I hurting the game?  I'd love to hear your explanation for this one.

Am I feeling ashamed and need to find another endeavor?  Um...no.

Originally Posted by Smitty28:

Don't worry about being offensive, that's just who you are, you can't help it.

How much work is it?  Obviously not a lot, but if I'm handed a line up sheet from the coaches that have only numbers, that's what I'll use.  If they give me first names I'll add that.  If they give me last names I'll use that. It's not worth it to me to chase down the rest of the information, and it's not worth anything to anyone else at the field.  Is this ignoring the rules?  I don't know, but if the umpire is ok with it then who am I to argue.

Am I ignoring tradition?  I don't know any traditions about keeping a score book so really can't answer.  Am I hurting the game?  I'd love to hear your explanation for this one.

Am I feeling ashamed and need to find another endeavor?  Um...no.

Look. You’re right, it’s really no big thing. In fact, it would be possible to play the game with no lineup card at all. We can go a bit further and do away with uniforms too, and why bother with rules about equipment? While we’re at it, let’s chuck the rules about setting up the fields as well, and for sure let’s do away with segregating players by age too, and let them all play together. I know that sounds pretty stupid, but that’s exactly how I grew up playing baseball, so it can certainly be done.

But when one begins to play in “organized” ball, there are rules, and there are reasons for those rules. For sure those rules can and are changed, but when people don’t follow the ones they find inconvenient, what they’re doing is chipping away at the very fabric of the game.

You don’t know any “traditions” about keeping a book because you don’t know the rules of the game of baseball. I didn’t write those rules, and for sure I think some are stupid, but I follow them as best I can. One reason so many people don’t trust stats is because of people like yourself who don’t bother to learn the rules.

Rules are there to insure continuity, traditions are there for something else. If you look at OBR 4.01 you’ll see that a lot of what goes on with lineup cards is courtesy. That’s where traditions come from. So you keep right on trucking the way you are because it suits you. After all, aren’t you the most important person on the field and get to do whatever you please?

I'm going to do the message-forum equivalent of the stop sign.

Knock it off, guys.