I can't help but feel badly, he was manager of the year once, then the organization trades everyone and the manager gets canned.
Sometimes you have to look deep into your own system to see where the fault really lies.
JMO.
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They fired him and his whole coaching staff...then asked them to finish out the season. How much sense does that make? It's not like the 800 at the park need to drop off their season ticket money at the box office before they leave tonight. Why not wait 5 days until the season's over?
Wedge seemed like an up and comer, but having watched his guys play, they don't play well. Lot's of mental errors, wrong throws, out of position, poor approaches. Stuff that rests with the coach...and not just this year.
Wedge seemed like an up and comer, but having watched his guys play, they don't play well. Lot's of mental errors, wrong throws, out of position, poor approaches. Stuff that rests with the coach...and not just this year.
I'll bet he has the option of staying in the organiation if another job doesn't surface.quote:They fired him and his whole coaching staff...then asked them to finish out the season. How much sense does that make?
The Indians, like a few other teams, seem to get rid of their top players.
Just in the last year or two they have given away two Cy Young winners, their best hitter and a steady vet, all to this year playoff teams.
Victor Martinez to Red Sox
Casey Blake to Dodgers
Cliff Lee to Phillies
CC Sabathia to Yankees
I doubt Wedge was in favor of those moves. In fact these players were all on the 2007 division champs that won 96 games. They have also been hit with injuries to key players. But this is what happens when the team doesn’t do well.
Wedge was hired in 2003, Charlie Manuel started the 2002 season as the Indians manager. Last year Manuel managed the Phillies to the World Championship.
Just in the last year or two they have given away two Cy Young winners, their best hitter and a steady vet, all to this year playoff teams.
Victor Martinez to Red Sox
Casey Blake to Dodgers
Cliff Lee to Phillies
CC Sabathia to Yankees
I doubt Wedge was in favor of those moves. In fact these players were all on the 2007 division champs that won 96 games. They have also been hit with injuries to key players. But this is what happens when the team doesn’t do well.
Wedge was hired in 2003, Charlie Manuel started the 2002 season as the Indians manager. Last year Manuel managed the Phillies to the World Championship.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
CC Sabathia to Yankees
errr, Brewers.
How about Cliff Lee. He was burned toast in Cleveland, goes to the Phillies and is untouchable.
Greg Walker, former MLB first baseman, and current hitting coach with the White Sox, says all the time that the difference between A ball and MLB has more to do between the ears than it does between the lines.
If you subscribe to that theory, at least to a degree, then you have to lay some blame at the managers feet for a club that has talented players not getting it done. Cliff Lee is a great example of that.
The Indians also gave up Mark DeRosa to the Cardinals who are playoff-bound. He may not be a spectacular player, but he has provided quite a bit to the Cardinals over the last two months.
CPLZ,
The Indians and Wedge won 96 games with those players (And others) on the roster. Yes Sabathia went to the Brewers where he led them to the playoffs also. Now he has the most wins in baseball for the Yankees. Cliff Lee won the Cy Young last year (22-3 record). This year he had a 3.14 ERA with the Indians and a 3.28 ERA with the Phillies. His seven years with Wedge resulted in a 83-47 record. Obviously the Phillies have a much better roster.
I do subscribe to that theory, but that doesn't mean there's no difference from one MLB player and another.
Bulldog, Mark DeRosa is another winner who will be in the playoffs. The playoffs will be full of EX Indians.
The Indians are playing badly, they gave away most of their best players and those top players left were hurt this year. When things like this happen, it is usually the manager that goes.
The Indians and Wedge won 96 games with those players (And others) on the roster. Yes Sabathia went to the Brewers where he led them to the playoffs also. Now he has the most wins in baseball for the Yankees. Cliff Lee won the Cy Young last year (22-3 record). This year he had a 3.14 ERA with the Indians and a 3.28 ERA with the Phillies. His seven years with Wedge resulted in a 83-47 record. Obviously the Phillies have a much better roster.
I do subscribe to that theory, but that doesn't mean there's no difference from one MLB player and another.
Bulldog, Mark DeRosa is another winner who will be in the playoffs. The playoffs will be full of EX Indians.
The Indians are playing badly, they gave away most of their best players and those top players left were hurt this year. When things like this happen, it is usually the manager that goes.
quote:Bulldog, Mark DeRosa is another winner who will be in the playoffs.
We in St. Louis like him very much even though he's been injured the entire time he's been in St. Louis with this injury or that injury. I think he went on the DL for a span right after the trade, but he's played hurt pretty well since then.
A couple weeks ago he actually apologized to Cardinal fans for not playing up to his potential due to injury..
DeRosa is a huge asset to have and I was ticked the Cubs let him go. Especially to free up money to sign Milton "freaking" Bradley. Oh well - there is always next year.
The Indians are a better version of the Pirates. Both small market teams who have to destroy their roster in order to rebuild with younger players. I got into a huge discussion on another board about the Pirates and what they are doing. First they didn't understand that the Pirates have changed ownership and GM to people who want to build and win. With the way things are the smaller teams cannot compete year in and year out with the big teams. So they have to go in cycles. Look at the Marlins and Indians because both have the history of build up, win and then let them go and do it over.
It's wrong the manager got fired over this but you have to show the fans (who the vast majority don't have a clue - like we do) they are trying during the rebuilding phase. Firing the manager is like in football when you blame the offensive line for not moving the ball. It's just easier to do that since most people don't know what's going on up front with the big uglies.
Wedge took the Indians to the playoffs and he was considered an up and coming manager. Now he's getting fired for lack of production. You can throw Charlie Manual into that category except the other way around. They don't go from being a genius to a moron or vice versa. One thing we got to remember about these managers is they are dealing with men and not teenagers. Men are set in their ways (insert any Milton Bradley or Manny Ramierez comment here) and probably won't change. Plus management doesn't want their $8 million investment to sit the bench while a $1 million investment plays over them.
You win with talent and I can see where someone can say the difference between A and MLB ball is between the ears. I don't think it's always the case but I can see where there is a basis for this statement.
The Indians are a better version of the Pirates. Both small market teams who have to destroy their roster in order to rebuild with younger players. I got into a huge discussion on another board about the Pirates and what they are doing. First they didn't understand that the Pirates have changed ownership and GM to people who want to build and win. With the way things are the smaller teams cannot compete year in and year out with the big teams. So they have to go in cycles. Look at the Marlins and Indians because both have the history of build up, win and then let them go and do it over.
It's wrong the manager got fired over this but you have to show the fans (who the vast majority don't have a clue - like we do) they are trying during the rebuilding phase. Firing the manager is like in football when you blame the offensive line for not moving the ball. It's just easier to do that since most people don't know what's going on up front with the big uglies.
Wedge took the Indians to the playoffs and he was considered an up and coming manager. Now he's getting fired for lack of production. You can throw Charlie Manual into that category except the other way around. They don't go from being a genius to a moron or vice versa. One thing we got to remember about these managers is they are dealing with men and not teenagers. Men are set in their ways (insert any Milton Bradley or Manny Ramierez comment here) and probably won't change. Plus management doesn't want their $8 million investment to sit the bench while a $1 million investment plays over them.
You win with talent and I can see where someone can say the difference between A and MLB ball is between the ears. I don't think it's always the case but I can see where there is a basis for this statement.
well as an longtime Indians fan... I do not entirely blame Wedge.. as he had "help" in bringing the record down to this level. But again, as the old saying goes .... when things go bad you can not fire the entire team, so you fire the coach!
Where to start...
CC Sabathis was always going to wind up with a team like NY, most teams simply cannot afford to pay a 6-7, Cy Young winning left handed power pitcher in his prime. Don't really hold the tribe too much on that one.... We got Matt Laporta and Michael Brantley fo him so this may turn out decently for Cleveland.
Cliff Lee - Simply one of the best left handers in the game. I felt we got a bucket of bolts for him. Terrible trade and there was still one additional year left on his deal....
Vitor Martinez looks like a nice deal for Boston.
Ryan Garko we traded for Scott Barnes. Barnes is a good pitcher who I saw almost beat Clemson in 2007. The thing is he was an 8th rounder so the Indians passed on him at least 8 times that year and could have had him without giving up a major leaguer in return.
We got 04Parent's son for Rafael Bentencourt. I think Connor Graham has fine potential but again, the Indians could have drafted him in 2007 without giving up any major league talent for him.
We got Carlos Santana for Casey Blake. Remember that name. This trade may turn out unbelievably well for Cleveland. Santana is a 2 time minor league player of the year.
For Mark DeRosa we basically got Chris Perez who many feel is a fine prospect.
This one hurts, they paid a boat load of money to injured Travis Haffner. This one is just bad luck. the Yankees can afford to outspend their bad luck or other mistakes such as Carl Pavano. The Haffner injury (chronic shoulder) has been devastating for the franchise because our owners do not have the resources to cover that.
I think the Tribe has had trouble drafting this decade although the last two years seems to have found some prospects in Lonnie Chisenhall, Jason Kipnis, and Alex White among others.
All-Star Grady Sizemore was injured this year. If anyone cares, we got Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips when we dumped Bartolo Colon to Montreal. Our front office has never quite hit on another trade like that one. Expect to see Sizemore traded next year or soon thereafter.
We have a billionare basketball owner in this city who can afford to spend what is necessary. Our baseball owners unfortunately do not have the same resources..... wait till next year will always be our motto...
Oh well, there is always the Browns
CC Sabathis was always going to wind up with a team like NY, most teams simply cannot afford to pay a 6-7, Cy Young winning left handed power pitcher in his prime. Don't really hold the tribe too much on that one.... We got Matt Laporta and Michael Brantley fo him so this may turn out decently for Cleveland.
Cliff Lee - Simply one of the best left handers in the game. I felt we got a bucket of bolts for him. Terrible trade and there was still one additional year left on his deal....
Vitor Martinez looks like a nice deal for Boston.
Ryan Garko we traded for Scott Barnes. Barnes is a good pitcher who I saw almost beat Clemson in 2007. The thing is he was an 8th rounder so the Indians passed on him at least 8 times that year and could have had him without giving up a major leaguer in return.
We got 04Parent's son for Rafael Bentencourt. I think Connor Graham has fine potential but again, the Indians could have drafted him in 2007 without giving up any major league talent for him.
We got Carlos Santana for Casey Blake. Remember that name. This trade may turn out unbelievably well for Cleveland. Santana is a 2 time minor league player of the year.
For Mark DeRosa we basically got Chris Perez who many feel is a fine prospect.
This one hurts, they paid a boat load of money to injured Travis Haffner. This one is just bad luck. the Yankees can afford to outspend their bad luck or other mistakes such as Carl Pavano. The Haffner injury (chronic shoulder) has been devastating for the franchise because our owners do not have the resources to cover that.
I think the Tribe has had trouble drafting this decade although the last two years seems to have found some prospects in Lonnie Chisenhall, Jason Kipnis, and Alex White among others.
All-Star Grady Sizemore was injured this year. If anyone cares, we got Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, and Brandon Phillips when we dumped Bartolo Colon to Montreal. Our front office has never quite hit on another trade like that one. Expect to see Sizemore traded next year or soon thereafter.
We have a billionare basketball owner in this city who can afford to spend what is necessary. Our baseball owners unfortunately do not have the same resources..... wait till next year will always be our motto...
Oh well, there is always the Browns
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I can't help but feel badly, he was manager of the year once, then the organization trades everyone and the manager gets canned.
Sometimes you have to look deep into your own system to see where the fault really lies.
JMO.
Agree 100% with TPM .........Prime example....Pittsburgh Pirates....
Gene Lamont
Lloyd McClendon
Jim Tracy
John Russell
all fired....Pirates have 17 straight losing seasons...traded every real player they ever had off in midseason and drafted like a drunken blind man.....
and the managers got fired...( all doing quite well now actually (Lamont and McClendon asst at Detroit for ex pirate skipper Leyland)..(Tracy leading the rockies in to the playoffs...)
You cant win the Kentucky Derby with Mules......Even if the owners dug up Connie Mack, he couldnt lead this franchise to a pennant...
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There is nothing wrong with teams going through rebuilding phases, such as the Indians are doing, but your core talent that will eventually move to the big field comes from the draft and how you run your milb system. That is not the managers fault.
I feel for the guy, I really do.
I feel for the guy, I really do.
Me too - Indians traded away alot of their talent. I liked Wedge.
It seems the Indians did a better job in the 90's building a contender. They developed talent, then signed them to affordable long term contracts before they developed into unaffordable free agents.
As for the 90's, the Indians were good AND lucky via development of draft picks, their trades, and judicious free agent signings of experienced players:
Through draft: A Belle, J Thome, M Ramirez, C Baerga, C Nagy (pretty good, two HOFers and one who might have been if he hadn't self destructed. I think Baerga is still the only switch hitter to have homered twice in same inning from both sides of plate)
Through trades: S Alomar, K Lofton, Omar Vizquel (one potential HOFer -- Vizquel's vote will be interesting, two other really strong guys)
Through free agency: D Martinez, O Hersheiser, E Murray (two of the best and another HOFer who had some very strong years post Baltimore)
As for current Tribe, see this website. The issues pointed out that Wedge is directly responsible for, including:
-- constant lineup shuffling
-- constant bullpen shuffling
-- in game mismanagement
-- slow starts following spring training
are issues that the manager must bear the responsibility for.
http://bleacherreport.com/arti...ns-are-a-bust#page/1
Through draft: A Belle, J Thome, M Ramirez, C Baerga, C Nagy (pretty good, two HOFers and one who might have been if he hadn't self destructed. I think Baerga is still the only switch hitter to have homered twice in same inning from both sides of plate)
Through trades: S Alomar, K Lofton, Omar Vizquel (one potential HOFer -- Vizquel's vote will be interesting, two other really strong guys)
Through free agency: D Martinez, O Hersheiser, E Murray (two of the best and another HOFer who had some very strong years post Baltimore)
As for current Tribe, see this website. The issues pointed out that Wedge is directly responsible for, including:
-- constant lineup shuffling
-- constant bullpen shuffling
-- in game mismanagement
-- slow starts following spring training
are issues that the manager must bear the responsibility for.
http://bleacherreport.com/arti...ns-are-a-bust#page/1
quote:Oh well, there is always the Browns
Oh my gosh do not even go there! The city is so ready for a winner and looks like not to be in football either....they are playing so poorly.
Have the Browns even scored an offensive touchdown this year?