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Infield Fly

im647fim647f1,000+ posts
Championship Game U15. Runnings on 1st & 2nd, 1 out.
Batter hit pop fly to very shallow right field. Ump calls infield fly so both runners hold. With F3 running with back to infield, ball hits F3's right wrist and bounces into foul ground. Both runners start to advance. Base Ump calls deadball, batter out for infield fly and makes both runners return.

I ask Base Ump for deadball ruling and get no answer.I then ask HP Ump for ruling and get tossed for arguing. (I was tossed the minute I said was going to protest the game.)

Could the runnings be allowed to advance after blowing the deadball call?
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Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
First it doesn't sound like an IFF, it can be in the outfield but it has to be able to caught with ordinary effort. Running with your back to the infield certainly doesn't sound like ordinary effort. You are correct that it does not kill the ball. For whatever reason people try to over complicate the IFF rule. There is absolutely no difference between an IFF and a normal fly ball except the batter is automatically out.
An umpire that tosses a coach for protesting is a horrible umpire. Protesting is a viable yool in the coach's toolbox. Tossing a coach for screaming at him is no problem. Make sure when you discuss an incorrect ruling that you are insistant but not out of control. Ask what he has, when he explains an incorrect ruling then discuss it, then protest. If you do it all in a fairly calm voice he has no reason to toss you. If you do it at 100 Db then he does.
Last edited by Michael S. Taylor
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by im647f:

Could the runnings be allowed to advance after blowing the deadball call?


Could outs be called on the runnings after blowing the deadball call?

The answer to both questions is the same.

The ump killed the ball when he shouldn't have. The runners go back.

You said you were tossed the minute you said you were protesting the game. May I ask what transpired in the minute(s) before that? You had already approached two umpires (you don't get to do that in my games) so I imagine you were out there for a while.

Maybe everyone needed to go back to playing baseball.
MU Mr Umpire100+ posts
If this were a FED game, the umpires may be allowed to fix the issue caused. Even a protest might be able to do so. I don't know for FED.

Outside of that, it is a dead ball. Inadvertent but still nothing to be done once killed.

And, as dash said, just b/c you wanted to protest usually doesn't get an EJ. The time before the EJ DOES add up to the moment of the EJ.

Too many questions and variables about this part. Demeanor, voice level, any waving of arms or other demonstrative movements. Were you told to go back to the dugout and ignored it? So many factors to comment on if the umpire could have done it differently or not.

With out that, I hope MST isn't referring to this particular umpire b/c so much of the story is probably not being revealed. Part of it was though, he went to 2 different umpires for a ruling. As dash said, not in a game I am part of. If my partner doesn't EJ, I will.
B baseball17500+ posts
Procedural question. Which umpire needs to be notified of protest? If the BU was the one who made the call being protested, and the initial discussion was with him, can the protest statement be made there, or does it require approaching the HU to "file" protest notification? I can understand ejection if "opinion shopping", just asking for clarification.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseball17:
Procedural question. Which umpire needs to be notified of protest? If the BU was the one who made the call being protested, and the initial discussion was with him, can the protest statement be made there, or does it require approaching the HU to "file" protest notification? I can understand ejection if "opinion shopping", just asking for clarification.


The protest can be brought to the attention of either umpire. The UIC (Umpire-In-Chief) is responsible for reporting it. By FED Rule, the plate umpire is the UIC.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
Are you sure the batter was out?

This is my thinking: The umpire (correctly or not) called the hit a foul ball. Depending on the location of the ball when it hit F3's wrist, it could have been a foul ball, negating any advance and making it an immediate dead ball. Of course, the batter wouldn't be out, though.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
If he declares an IFF then the batter is out. Whether his judgement was correct or not is a HTBT. As I noted, as well as others, the ejection depends on missing information. I believe the OP said he asked for a reference from both umpires, then protested, that sounds like call shopping and likely part of the reason for the ejection. I simply noted that the act of protesting should not be grounds for ejection.
im647fim647f1,000+ posts
Thanks for all the feedback. The ball was clearly fair, that was never an issue. I didn't yell or blow up b/c in knew they got it wrong. I asked both umps for a "deadball" ruling and neither would give me an answer. I even asked the umps to discuss this with the other manager. I know him and he's a fair guy. They again refused. I only asked the umps to try and make the call right. HP Ump runs me. I didn't protest the game b/c it was getting late on a Sunday night and both teams were two+ hours from home. A simple "we blew it and can't change the call" would have at least allowed me to stay in the game.

We end up winning the game. I spoke with the other manager after the game, he said he and his team got a good laugh out if it. Lesson learned, the ump is always right!
M Matt1310,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dash_riprock:
quote:
Originally posted by baseball17:
Procedural question. Which umpire needs to be notified of protest? If the BU was the one who made the call being protested, and the initial discussion was with him, can the protest statement be made there, or does it require approaching the HU to "file" protest notification? I can understand ejection if "opinion shopping", just asking for clarification.


The protest can be brought to the attention of either umpire. The UIC (Umpire-In-Chief) is responsible for reporting it. By FED Rule, the plate umpire is the UIC.


To baseball17: While this is correct, your best bet as a manager is to do it with the calling umpire. The reason is that you will already be in discussion with him, and as others have stated, trying to initiate a discussion with any other umpire is going to make a short day for you--to approach a different umpire is showing up the first one.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by im647f:
Lesson learned, the ump is always right!


Not true. You had the option to protest the game and refused to do so. While we're in agreement the umpires screwed up, your not following the written protocol of having the mistake fixed is what made the umpires "right."

Granted, you won the game and the protest wouldn't have even been decided. However, it might have gotten the umpires to either (1) think about the play and see if they were right originally, or (2) get fixed by their "supervisor."
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
The other question is did you follow up with the assignor or interpreter? Again it has to be done under control. Don't call asking what kind of morons is he sending, but instead ask to have the IFF rule explained and if he could check with the crew to see what went wrong.
Many times when the situation is discussed later what you thought happened and what actually happened is two different things. I'm not saying you were wrong here but many times the coach sees one thing and the umpire sees something else. Part of that is rules knowledge, part is angle and part is we watch the game with an impartial eye.
There are umpires that are not good at the rules and will become defensive when questioned. There are others that are very good at the rules but no ability to explain their ruling. Both types will be quick to toss because it tends to escalate a simple ruling.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
quote:
...There is absolutely no difference between an IFF and a normal fly ball except the batter is automatically out.


One very small point of clarification. The batter is out but the runners are not forced to advance if the ball is dropped.

I realize you all know that, just a very minute point of clarification.
jjkjjk500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by im647f:
Thanks for all the feedback. The ball was clearly fair, that was never an issue. I didn't yell or blow up b/c in knew they got it wrong. I asked both umps for a "deadball" ruling and neither would give me an answer. I even asked the umps to discuss this with the other manager. I know him and he's a fair guy. They again refused. I only asked the umps to try and make the call right. HP Ump runs me. I didn't protest the game b/c it was getting late on a Sunday night and both teams were two+ hours from home. A simple "we blew it and can't change the call" would have at least allowed me to stay in the game.

We end up winning the game. I spoke with the other manager after the game, he said he and his team got a good laugh out if it. Lesson learned, the ump is always right!


I gotta know, what did the umpire/s say?

You said; "I asked both umps for a "deadball" ruling and neither would give me an answer."

So they just stood there staring at you?

How was their umpiring up til this point?

A Vet behind the plate, he doesn't appreciate assignments with this green as grass partner all that much.
This OP happens.
Vet knows it's not his call, not his call to fix; but quickly tends to his duties, scan's the field and replays the play in his head, knowing he might have to offer up advice for a fix, he assesses the Ball didn't go far enough R1, R2.

G as G BU doesn't know why he just did that, looks around in hopes no body saw it, he too snaps back to reality and assesses the damages and decides R1, R2.
Did he indicate, runners there and there?
Did he somehow acknowlede to the players by word or action that he'd pooched that one?

You come out and say, that shouldn't have been killed. He very possibly (hopefully) figured out, that's right, and totally agrees with your statement. Figures you're done venting and should be heading on back now.

In the mean time Vet is thinking, good he (BU) know's he screwed up and he's letting coach vent. Oh, now wait a sec, now C's coming my way, partner ain't asking for help, this guys gonna start arguing/shopping/showing up.. if his partner doesn't ask for help, then he's assuming you got your answer and should move on or simply state your case. For future reference if you leave one umpire "try and take him with you", if you don't, the first words outta your mouth to the other should be; sir I'd like to officially protest that call or something very similar.

What's the fix, can't send batter back up to hit, that was decided prior to this. IFF is judgment and not protestable.

So, "Sir,I protest, that ball was killed when it shouldn't have been."
How is that fixed? By the judgement of the umpire..so they think no advance was possible, R1, R2, play on.

Remember when time is called the D stops too, they don't deserve to be punished either.

I agree ya got hosed, not necessarily on the final outcome of the play, but from a couple guys that don't know how or don't work very hard at managing a game.

So the opposing manager was all for R2, R3? Maybe after the fact?
im647fim647f1,000+ posts
The umps had been a non-factor up until this call(which is good). After the call was made I approached the BU who made the call. I said I understand the IFF call but wanted to know why he called the "deadball." His answer was "coach, that's my call, please return to the dugout."
I again asked why the call was made and if he could show me the rule. His answer, " my rule book is in the car and I'm going stop the game to retrieve it."

At this point I told him I realized he blew the call, and suggested he speak with the opposing manager regarding my two baserunners. He again refused to address the call in any way and was slowly walking away from me out into right field. I followed and asked how was he going to make the call right. He responded by saying "coach, you go back to you dugout and stay there,you are not allowed to base coach the rest of the game, you must stay in the dugout." At this point I laughed and asked "can you really do that?" "My field, my rules," he replied. I could see this was going no where and turned to the HU for help.

This entire time the HU stayed behind the dish. I made the walk from short right to ask him for some help with the call. He replied that it's his (the BU) call and his issue to deal with. I explained that I wasn't questioning the IFF but the deadball call. I asked him to have a quick chat with the other manager or should I just protest the game. UP yells " you had you time here, your gone." I was out ther for maybe 5 minutes.

I didn't cuss or raise my voice where anyone in the stands could hear while talking with the BU.
Both stands heard my conversation with the HU and again nothing crazy or out of line. I did get frustrated due to the lack of respect I received from both umps. As I said before a simple " I blew it and can't change it, or the other manager won't agree to it" would have put me back in the dugout. But neither ump even tryed to get the call correct or explain why it was called.

The HU seemed to be the senior guy, but that's only going by age. We were 2 hours from home so I had no prior knowledge if these guys.

BTW, the other manager never really answered me when I asked if he would have agreed to the runners advancing after the deadball call. He just smilied and said he's glad he wasn't required to make that decision. I'm thinking no.

After we returned home I realized I didn't fully undertand the protest rule. I thought the game would be played under protest and revert back to the blow call if we lost the game and won the protest. Being it was Sunday night, I knew neither team would be returning for a protested game.
That was my mistake.
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by im647f:
The umps had been a non-factor up until this call(which is good). After the call was made I approached the BU who made the call. I said I understand the IFF call but wanted to know why he called the "deadball." His answer was "coach, that's my call, please return to the dugout."
I again asked why the call was made and if he could show me the rule. His answer, " my rule book is in the car and I'm going stop the game to retrieve it."

At this point I told him I realized he blew the call, and suggested he speak with the opposing manager regarding my two baserunners. He again refused to address the call in any way and was slowly walking away from me out into right field. I followed and asked how was he going to make the call right. He responded by saying "coach, you go back to you dugout and stay there,you are not allowed to base coach the rest of the game, you must stay in the dugout." At this point I laughed and asked "can you really do that?" "My field, my rules," he replied. I could see this was going no where and turned to the HU for help.

This entire time the HU stayed behind the dish. I made the walk from short right to ask him for some help with the call. He replied that it's his (the BU) call and his issue to deal with. I explained that I wasn't questioning the IFF but the deadball call. I asked him to have a quick chat with the other manager or should I just protest the game. UP yells " you had you time here, your gone." I was out ther for maybe 5 minutes.

I didn't cuss or raise my voice where anyone in the stands could hear while talking with the BU.
Both stands heard my conversation with the HU and again nothing crazy or out of line. I did get frustrated due to the lack of respect I received from both umps. As I said before a simple " I blew it and can't change it, or the other manager won't agree to it" would have put me back in the dugout. But neither ump even tryed to get the call correct or explain why it was called.

The HU seemed to be the senior guy, but that's only going by age. We were 2 hours from home so I had no prior knowledge if these guys.

BTW, the other manager never really answered me when I asked if he would have agreed to the runners advancing after the deadball call. He just smilied and said he's glad he wasn't required to make that decision. I'm thinking no.

After we returned home I realized I didn't fully undertand the protest rule. I thought the game would be played under protest and revert back to the blow call if we lost the game and won the protest. Being it was Sunday night, I knew neither team would be returning for a protested game.
That was my mistake.


A total clusterfork.

BU kicked one big time because he didn't know the rules.

BU didn't do a good job of game management either. You should have been dumped when you followed him out to right field, perhaps sooner. The PU (plate umpire) had to do his job for him.

You didn't know how or when to protest the game. I bet you do now.

When you said you were going to protest the game, PU should have asked you for the rule you believe was misapplied and recorded it in the book. Then it's back to playing baseball.

Your original question was: "Could the runnings be allowed to advance after blowing the deadball call?" The answer is probably not.

If you are looking for confirmation that the umpires did a bad job, it is confirmed.

If you are looking for confirmation that your behavior was justified, no can do.

Finally, I thought I had heard them all until you said you asked the PU to get help from the opposing coach. That is priceless.
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
When you asked about killing the ball, the only complete answer he can give is that he called the IFF and killed it, now we have to live with it. The rulebook should be in the car and he shouldn't go get it.
When you continued, he should say let's play baseball, go to the dugout. When he turns to go to right field, following is an auto eject. The dugout restriction is allowed if you are playing HS rules. It saves you from being ejected.
When you approached the PU, you should be gone, no discussion at all.
You should have protested before the BU ever turned away. My field,my rules should never utter by an umpire. There is a rule provision to make a ruling for something not covered by the rules, this should be used about once a career. I am 36 yrs in and haven't used it yet.

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