Interest or not....

We had this happen with our younger son.  But it came in the form of a very personalized email and an invitation to call the coach to discuss.  Bottom line, he wanted his PC and HC to see our son in a prospect-style camp.  And the cost was similar.

 

We went, they were all there to watch and they gave him and us some very personal attention including a tour of the campus (1-on-1).  Seemed genuine.

 

Then the camp happened, great feedback on the field, and an offer a day later.  The whole thing was totally legit - but there were plenty of signs beginning with the email followed by a call by our son's HS coach to the recruiter to make sure that it was indeed, legit.

 

And yes, it was.

Root, I think your situation is certainly an outlier though.  A kid with exceptional talent AND one that the school was not aware of AND one that did not contact the school in advance... a rare combination.  With your son's numbers and age, he could choose any number of avenues successfully.  This is not the case with the majority seeking this type of advice regarding camps.

To be more specific, this is the email. I've blocked out any specifics:

"*****,

I saw you yesterday at the PBR Showcase in *******, ** and would like to invite you to our High School Showcase here at ********** University on August **. I would like our staff to be able to see your abilities and for you to see our baseball facilities and campus. This will be our sixth consecutive showcase. In those past six showcases we have signed 12 student athletes. We would love to have you out at our showcase on the **th of August. 10 other 4 year schools have been invited to attend our showcase as well. Please don’t hesitate to email or call if you have any questions.

[Follow this link to register]


***** ***********
Assistant Baseball Coach
************* University
Cell Phone ***-***-****
Fax Number ***-***-****"

Often I read things like, are they really interested?  How do I know how interested they really are?  Is this just a mass mailing? and so on.

 

Here is how you should look at this.  How GOOD am I?  If you have the talent they want, they will want you!  If you don't have the talent they want, They won't want you!

 

So whether it is mass marketing, or a little interest on their part, doesn't really make any difference.  Because it all depends on what they see once you get there.  Obviously they will not recruit many of the campers, but that doesn't mean they won't get extremely interested in you.

 

So how they got your name, or what they said in the message, or how truly interested they are, really doesn't even matter.  At this point, all that matters is how good you are. If you are talented enough to impress college coaches to the point of creating interest, you need to be seen as much as possible.  

 

At this point they are not interested enough or you wouldn't be asking these questions because you would know for sure.  So the question is, do you want to go show them that they should be more interested. This is nothing more than an opportunity to show them something.  And keep in mind, that they might already know they have no interest.  But a camp full of just those that they want to make an offer to, will be a very small camp and it won't make any money.

Lets just say that camps are purely fundraisers, except for the few, go back to the basics.  How fast are you in the 60, how much power to you have hitting, and how hard can you throw (the easy disqualifiers).  If you like the school and the easy disqualifiers  have you thinking you can make an impact, take them up on the invite and go.  Network and have fun.

This is the point where I classify the email as "spam". 

Probably so but from all the great input I've gotten here I think there is really only one thing to do. The coach left his cell phone number so why not use it. That I think is probably the quickest and easiest way to really know and who knows, if he isn't on the map maybe he will be after the call. Going to the camp or not I think is secondary to the call. Had the same email come from a coach of an MLB team, one would be stupid not to at least make the phone call...right?

Right.

Plan the call so your son can discern whether the coach has a clue who he is.

It's fair to ask how much he knows about him, if he had a chance to speak to his travel coach or call his high school coach yet.

 

Also, pay attention to what he doesn't say. If he doesn't ask about grades, test scores, clearinghouse status, other schools being considered, or offers received, you may assume his interest does not extend beyond the camp. 

 

Let us know how it goes.

In some ways, i think the camp and fees indicate who is interested in the school and they possible utilize that knowledge. We paid for 1 camp and they wanted him but had little to no funds to offer and were private, in the end son ended up where he belongs. 

As a college coach, I can tell you that Swampboy is dead on in what he is saying. 

I sent you a PM

Wouldn't get too excited.  This seems pretty generic.  Coaches use this strategy to entice players to attend their school specific camp a lot, it seems. 

 

Still, I would have the kid follow up,  with maybe an e-mail saying that there are lots of camps that he is  considering possibly attending, but he is  trying to focus on events where there is a genuine interest in him.   He should ask the coach a point blank question.  Some will give frank answers.   Some will dissemble.  Some won't respond.  But any excuse to start or continue a conversation with a coach is a good thing, not a bad thing and should be seized upon if the kid is at all interested in the school. 

 

After spending a fair amount of time and money on camps,  I have come to believe that most schools don't do any significant recruiting through these camps. It's more recruiting at the margins. It's not that they are opposed to finding talent through their camps.   For one thing, they'd  love to be able to say things like.   "We signed 12 student athletes.."  in our past six showcases.  But they can't say that if it isn't true.    Being able to say that honestly makes players and their parents willing to pay.  

 

If a player attends a camp and REALLY stands out, that can lead to further conversations, maybe even an offer. We saw that happen with one guy at a camp last summer.  The coaches singled out a very good player at the end, told him -- in the hearing of many as goodbyes were being said -- 'we like the way you play, we will definitely be in touch."  But that seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule.  Most players at most of  the camps we attended  got a "thanks for coming.  good work. keep at it." kind of send-off.

 

My son attend a camp that did manage to get him on the radar of a rising D1 in a very strong conference.   They followed up not just with e-mail to us, but a call to his HS coach.   That didn't work out in the end.  But it did initiate sort of long process.

 

Bottom line.  I'm not saying that nothing ever happens as the result of these camps.  But in all the  school specific camps we did, the pattern was pretty much the same.  Lots of good players attended each one.  But it seemed pretty clear that coaches were genuinely interested in just a few of them, at most,  and weren't depending on the camps as major recruiting tools at all.  So I wouldn't take a mere camp invitation -- even if enticingly phrased, even based on prior observation of the player  -- as a a sign of major interest.  

 

 

---

Not sure if I can add anything more to this thread as most of the posters have done terrific job IMO w this question and corresponding items of interest throughout the thread. I thought SwampBoy said it all. The following info is based on a 2016 recruit:

 

-When a HC or RC want a player they make their intentions CLEAR. There is no ambiguity.

 

-Prospective HS players are categorized within the Colleges recruiting data base like this:

         Follow

         Prospect

         Recruit

         Committ

         

FOLLOW: will receive regular ' Non personalized' email regarding camps and program updates. Coaches phone numbers will be listed but don't read anything into that. FOLLOW email usually contain lots of generic info and most of it is 'Camp invite' Most programs have dozens of kids on the 'Follow' list.

 

PROSPECT: Phone calls from RC plus regular personalized email generally asking questions about players schedule , grades, test scores, intended College Major, etc.PROSPECT email is short. Usually questions " Hey it's Coach Jones, have you taken the SAT test?" or "I see you are pitching at team USA trials please text me your start day with field location" Lot's of contact with the player. They also contact the HS Coach. The simple way to differentiate between FOLLOW and PROSPECT is the PHONE. College RC's call prospects. They DO NOT call follows.

 

Being a PROSPECT puts you on the recruiting board for your particular class ( 2016, 2017, etc ) but that board is also prioritized numerically. Example: Maybe 12 RHP's on  a board at a school. All are assigned a numeric value 1, 2, 3 etc. With the #1 being their top choice. It's really important to ask the RC where you rank on the board ( The player does this not the parents )

 

-Pitchers are in the front of the line. Much harder for position players to find a roster spot than pitchers. The data is clear. On a given NCAA roster you may find a total of 33 players 16 of which are pitchers ( 2015 Cal Poly Roster )

 

A RECRUIT is a player who has been OFFERED a guaranteed roster spot for the fall and spring. That player is RECRUIT status as long as he is holding an offer from the school.

 

COMMITTED: Player has committed to a program he then comes "Off the board" or remain on the board with the name of the school he committed to next to his name.

 

 

Lastly, i highly recommend learning how to 'Vet' email. As a parent I understand what its like to see the initial email from 'UCLA'...its exciting. But hind sight is 20/20 and that email from UCLA was camp invite. Nothing more.Also, this stuff is expensive!! I learned how to Vet email pretty quick.My experience is that individual camps at schools where my son had significant interest was money well spent. But their needs to be interest there. My son committed in June and he still receives camp invites DAILY from schools that followed him or somehow got his email address. The schools where he was a PROSPECT have stopped all contact since he committed. They know. But the FOLLOW schools continue to pump out the FOLLOW email.

 

Really important to understand the above recruiting timeline. Basically if you are a 'Follow' as a 2016 you gotta get busy!! and get in front of the right schools that fit your baseball skill set, academics and financial budget. NLI's will come out soon you wanna get on the prospect board of a D1, D2 or D3 right away. 2016's can't afford to waste time with schools who's interest is marginal at best. It's not fair to the player.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strained Ob,

 

Great break down above.  Very clear.  It appears however that you are assigning your designations of "Follow," "Prospect," etc. as if player is well into their Junior year of HS, as you mention "Coach Jones" is calling the "prospect" DIRECTLY? 

 

Question:  what is to be read (forgive me, I know many have been chastised on this site by veteran posters to NOT read into anything, "it is what it is," etc.) into an RC or PC from D-1 school calling son's travel ball coach to "please have player call me at #555-1234."  Obviously coaches do this when kids are as young as Freshman and Sophs.  Kid calls coach back a day later and they have a 30-minute conversation and at end coach invites kid to come to campus for a visit (unofficial). 

 

Can I assume this kid, since so young, AND STILL NOT LIKELY TO BE OFFERED ANYTIME SOON DUE TO PHYSICAL IMMATURITY (RHP 78-82), is at least a "Follow" or possibly a "Prospect?"   We all know the kids who get these calls as 9th graders and yes at age 15 are committing to Top-3 schools in nation; these kids go from being just a 15-year old travel ball player to "Commit" within a matter of days.  This is a much different scenario.  My kid ain't one of them as he is no where near ready, physically or skill wise to commit, but he does get the texts from his travel coach saying, "Call Coach Jones at Big State, cell 555-1234."  He is still at least 1-year (maybe even 2) from anyone offering him, I believe, but he has had this happen on numerous occasions.

 

Bottom line question is, why would a D-1 RC/PC invest the time to make a phone call to a kid's travel ball coach to have kid call him, when kid is a 2018 RHP throwing 78-82?  2018 throwing 84-88, yes, I get that.  But 2018 RHP throwing 78-82 is some LOOOOOOONG term prospecting on RC/PC's part, yes??  That's a creek about 15-miles hike away that MIGHT have some gold in it, yes??

 

 

 

MCase, hopefully you will call the coach on his cell.  I will be anxious to hear what you find out.

Son recently had a couple JUCOs and a D3 invite him to campus during fall practices to meet the coaches and players. Is this more a sign of interest? No camps or $ involved. He is also a 2016.

One clue to look for: an unsubscribe link at the bottom of the email. That shows the email was sent from a third party email service provider as a part of a single larger mailing.

Definite sign of interest.

These are first party emails. Trust me we have received many form emails and even some direct emails inviting him to camps. In this case the JUCOs have asked him to come work out with the team, the D3 just wants him on campus "to see what they are all about". Its nice to finally get something that doesn't look like a money grab. Just trying to stay realistic.

So let me ask this.  It has been said don't go to a camp expecting to get noticed.  Or don't go to the big PG tournaments and the like unannounced expecting to get noticed.  So, how do you get noticed?  What do you do to generate the interest? 

I think the "unannounced" is important in big PG tournaments and the like.  You have to do some leg work in advance of those.  Send your schedule out to recruiting coordinators and the like that will be there.   But before you send your schedule out to them, you should have written and made some prior contact.  Sent your video, your letter of interest.  Maybe a reference.   The problem with these big tournaments is that there are SO many players.   Counting on a pair of eyes you want to be seen by to just randomly fall on you is magical thinking.  There's no room for magical thinking in this business.

 

Also, I wouldn't say you won't get NOTICED  at a camp.  But I would say they are not a primary recruiting tool.  Using the categories from above,  you can certainly get on the "follow" list if you perform well at a camp -- which may do little more than get you invited to another camp at the same or different school.  

 

If you really stand out, you can even get on a school's "prospect" list by attending a camp.  That would get them wanting to see more of you, to talk to your coach, etc. 

 

But you'd have to be really, really special at a camp to get recruited directly out of it, I would think. 

I am new to this board because I am trying to get an online private lesson business going and am trying to get my name out there but I have been coaching college baseball for 13 years at 5 different schools. There are people on this board that seem to have a very good handle on what it means to actually be recruited and what it means to be a part of a mailer. However, if you have specific questions, please PM me, I would be more than happy to help. I can tell you exactly what the coaches intentions are 98% of the time.

Once again, it all depends on your talent level. If you have what it takes, you don't go unnoticed, no matter how many players are there.

 

Often people say that because they think their son went unnoticed.  Going completely unnoticed means you played every day for a week in front of different scouts and recruiters and no one noticed you had the necessary ability or potential.  In the case of the big PG tournaments, that includes PG Scouts watching you in every game and filing reports in the database.  It includes at least one or two or more games you play against a team that is heavily scouted.  And of course it helps everyone on the team that has a known top prospect on their own team. The only way to go unnoticed is by not playing.  After all, how do all these good players that are getting all the interest get noticed?

 

I hear it, they know who they want to see before they get there.  They work off a list, and so on. Well how did that player get on their list, surely he wasn't on their list since he was born.  And while the recruiter or scout watches that player on his list, does he not see the others that are playing the game.   I can't even guess how many outstanding players I saw for the first time while going to a game to see someone else. It's part of the job, after all everyone is out there trying to find talent.

 

So no one really goes unnoticed, some simply create much more interest than others.  

 

The same thing goes on at a camp.  If you will be the best player or pitcher, or one of them, at that camp and have the ability that college is looking for, you don't have to call ahead of time and give them your stats and Website. You don't have to do anything except show up and show them what you have.  The players that college recruiters truly want, don't have to do much marketing.  They just go play and get seen.  Baseball is a small world when it comes to talking about talent.  So sometimes too much marketing and promotion just ends up looking like your not one of those players that the college wants. The one they really want is wanted by many.

 

Guess, for the most part, I am talking about the upper division of college baseball (D1).  I can understand how promotional material and especially video, might help at the lower levels.  Still, I should add this, over promotion, you know... What the boy did in Little League, then 13, then 14 and so on.  Newspaper clippings and helping the elderly neighbor and pretty much making the kid sound too good to be true!  That type of marketing becomes source for a lot of laughter in the coaches office.  At any level of college!

 

BTW, What ever happened to simply going to a college camp in order to learn something that might make you a better player.  Is it... "Coach I'm not here to learn anything, I already know enough, I'm just here to get recruited"

 

Every time a player goes to any camp or clinic, they should learn something while they are there.  If you learn something that will help you be a better player, that $100 will be well spent.  Yet, all I ever hear is a need to know how interested they are in recruiting me  so I can justify spending $100. I've seen kids pick up things at camps and clinics that have made them better players who were then recruited or drafted.  But it's not my $100 bucks, so it's not any of my business what others do.

There's a LOT of insight and truth in PGStaff's post.

 

...and thank you for acknowledging that camps offer a great deal more than simply visibility.

 

If a player doesn't measure up to the standards sought by the hosting camp's staff, and he's unreceptive to taking away as much additional knowledge from the instructors as he can; then, I suppose the camp has qualified as a "money grab" from that player's perspective. For those who are competitive at that level and approach the instruction with an open mind and desire to improve, it becomes money well spent. 

Well, right PG, the guys who stand out in ANY crowd, surely stand out in ANY crowd.  So they can just show up and do their things.  Don't doubt that at all. Those  are the guys who get to play at the very top levels of D1.  Probably a high percentage of them go on to become mlb draft picks eventually.  That's the absolute cream of the crop.

 

But I assume there are lots of guys who are trying to find a place to play in college, at some level or other,  and, in fact, will find a place to play, who, while very good ball players,  don't necessarily stand out in ANY crowd in that same way. 

 Well, anytime a College coach gets word to a player that he would like to speak with him is clearly a good thing. Right? As far as Velo numbers in '17 '18 class, I think a '18 who's velo is low but has a projectable body type is different than a small body low velo kid. But I'm not an RC or a scout. I do know that the heavy recruiting for '17's doesn't really kick off till next summer.Keep in mind, you will see '17's and 18's committ early but these are generally exceptions and not the rule. A 2018 that is committed now is arguably a 'blue chip' prospect.

Great last paragraph by PG and acknowledging that many programs offer good instruction and attend to try to learn something rather than trying to figure out what it all means!

Welcome.

If you came to help folks out, thats great!  A new member with your experience is always welcome.

If you came to advertise, contact MNmon for further information.

Thank you. I will probably do that. I am mostly here for people to get to know me and help out. 

Going back to the last few remarks about instruction at the camps, I'll admit that I probably have less exposure to the amount of camps as some on this board but my son has been too two camps at northeast D1 schools this summer.  I was not able to go to the first one but I was at most of the second one.  He is a pitcher only and he pitched the last two innings of the day so he and I were there the entire day.  I didn't see a lot of instruction going on.  

 

The camp was run much like a showcase would be run - the POs were with the pitching coaches while the position players ran through their showcase drills. They (the POs) were doing some drills but they were mostly throwing and it seemed like killing time. They then caught fly balls during BP, everyone had lunch and then they played a 13 inning game.  The HC, PC and RC were behind home plate almost the entire time.  I asked my son if the first camp was run the same way and he said yes (was just about the exact same thing).  

 

I did not sit and watch every minute - walked most of the campus to see what it was like - but I saw enough to see that there was very little instruction given to the position players while they were running through their stations (and none during the game).  The camp shirt says XXXX University Prospect Camp.  And I think that sums up why the players are there - they want to become prospects at that school if they aren't already.  

 

I will also mention that there was one player there (LHP) who seemed to be new to the coaches who they were very excited about.  The RC went and got him after he pitched and they got his mom and they left and toured the campus.  He may have been a known player to them prior to the camp though, no way for me to be sure.  But they were giddy like school girls while they were watching the gun while he pitched. 

I do not have first hand knowledge about camps and recruiting because my son is not at that age yet. However, his hitting coach who is a minor leaguer now and doing very well in the minors said that he was the unusual baseball player who decided he wanted to play football instead of baseball in HS. In the senior year, he decided he was not big enough for football. He attended college camps and got offers from more than one really good school. So...I don't think camps are useless and might have it's own merits. 

I imagine a lot of schools use camps primarily to bring in revenue, but if a player has what it takes to play at a school, camps can be a great way to get on their radar -- or even seal the deal.

 

When JP asked me if he could attend Oregon's camp in SoCal, I remember thinking: Why would a major D1 hold a camp so far from its campus ... if NOT to find or close the deal with players?? 

 

So we spent the money to travel from Texas, and you know what? The whole coaching staff was there. It was drill-based, with a lot of instruction and information -- and it was clearly a scouting event.  

 

I guess my point is -- not all college baseball camps are created equal. 

Howdy, 

You're the second person to argue against propositions that weren't asserted on this thread.  Nobody here said camps were useless.

 

Your son's hitting coach is the poster child for the "individual results may vary" disclaimer.  A guy who was a good enough athlete to become a professional in one sport after focusing on another sport until his senior year of high school is not typical.

 

He probably exuded enough athletic ability just tying his shoes to stand out from the rest of the campers. 

 

His success at showing up at camp as an unknown and displaying the talent that enabled him to become a pro sheds no light on the questions of the significance of a camp invitation or the primary reason college coaches run camps.

 

However, the fact that you are using his story does confirm my point that the rare instances of campers who emerge from nowhere with undeniable ability and land scholarships will be used to encourage the hopes of other potential campers.

 

Best wishes, 

 

JP, 

 

That is a valid point.

 

U of Oregon is not a typical baseball program. They:

--Compete in a power conference against the biggest California universities;

--Represent a state with 1/10th of the population of California with nowhere near the same depth of native talent;***

--Are coached by a legendary coach with deep Southern California roots;

--Have the resources to do whatever they need to do to compete.

 

Because of necessity and opportunity, their camps may be different from the norm. 

 

They are different in a lot of ways. How many flagship state universities have only five in-state players on their baseball roster?

 

***Note:  Five years ago, their former pitching coach showed up at a midweek local travel league game in Virginia. He was the only coach from any school at an event 3,000 miles from home, and he hadn't come there to recruit any particular individual. He was just working his butt off--he had a few hours down time to between flights and found a productive way to spend those hours. He said my son's 17U team showed him more 85+mph LHP's in one night than he could find in his entire home state. He had to cast a broad net. (Not surprised at all to see the success he is having as a head coach.)

Requesting a player to attend a camp is not showing interest. Even if the coach included their cell #, answering their phone may be an issue.

 

 

It has been said before “ you will know if you are a prospect”.  It is not hard to figure out the sincerity of the RC/HC by their type and frequency of communication. When coaches are generally sincere they will ask for grades, clearing house status and standardized test scores.  Frequent emails touching base, checking tourney schedule and attending games to eval are also an indication they have interest.  Do understand though, that they are doing the same with other players as well. 

 

Caveat emptor!

 

Good luck in the process!

While I agree with JABMK that requesting a player to attend a camp may not show interest (though it may or not be true), a good camp can elevate a player's standing.  My son went to a fielding/defensive drills one day mini-camp held solely by the recruiting coordinator assisted by a few players. Son entered the three hour camp as a player on the school's radar. After a solid showing, son returned home as a player HIGH ON THE SCHOOL's RADAR.

Lots of good ground covered here, and boy has this general topic been beaten to death over the years.  Talk about being beaten to death, I will...once again...say that any new comers should start with the search button in the upper left.  We all enjoy chiming in, of course, but one can get most if not all of these insights from prior posts over the last many years.  It is all here, folks.

 

But, to this thread, just two quick adds:

1. I totally agree with Swampboy re: mobile phone numbers.  Over the years, it's been said on here that the inclusion of a mobile phone number in an email was some special signal from a coach that a player should call him.  I think it is time we move on from this.  It is not a big deal to get someone's mobile phone, IMO.  How many people/coaches don't even have or don't even use a landline number any more?  My son was at a coaches instructional camp for his travel team a couple of years ago.  An AC/RC from one of the very, very top programs in the country (SEC, relatively recent national champs...a well known AC in NCAA baseball circles) stood up in front hundreds of players and parents and gave out his mobile (repeated it, slowly) and said call me anytime.

2. Volunteer Assistant coaches absolutely get paid and have every incentive to get as many players to their prospect camps as possible.  A volunteer assistant from an ACC program was chatting casually with my wife last summer at a showcase event and told her exactly that.  In no uncertain terms.  In addition to finding talent, of course, a primary focus of his was to get as many players as possible (targeting talented ones, of course, the best if possible...but as many as possible) to attend their prospect camp for $$ reasons - his own and the programs. (Btw, I have no issue with this at all.  As PG has pointed out, there is always something to be taken away from these camps, regardless of skill level.).

Thank you all for your comments to this thread. It has now been a couple of weeks since I made the OP, and since then my son has actually had several communications with different coaches. These communications have come in a wide range of methods, via emails of differing content and phone calls, and resemble much the array of what all of you have posted. It is evident that there are varying degrees of interest with each style of communication, as has been said. After seeing these communications first hand now, it is refreshing that they have been very much inline with what information this thread has offered. Thanks again for everyone's input.

Thanks, Bucs Fan.

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, nobody here has said nothing good happens at camps.

 

The question we tried to answer here is whether the OP's camp invitation communicated interest.  The consensus seems to be that it does not.

 

That doesn't mean OP's son shouldn't go to camp. He may want the instruction. It may be the most constructive opportunity available that particular weekend. He may want to learn more about the coaches and the school to decide whether he is interested in them. He may be good enough to be the one player who stands out at that camp and generates sincere interest.

 

Good things can and do happen at camp for players who have the talent. Sometimes campers do elevate their standing to the point that they secure roster spots or scholarships. Usually these players are already known to the coaches (some of these players receive invitations that do indicate interest, or at least curiosity), but sometimes not. 

 

Bear in mind that no amount of camp success stories will address the question of whether this camp invitation signifies current interest on the part of the coaches.

 

 

Swampboy summarized it pretty well as did PG, regarding learning something, my son learned quite a bit at the two camps he went to. (actually went back and told his HS coach he was teaching something incorrectly.....but that is another story) 

 

One other way to discern interest is to talk to the recruiting coach and let them know that you can not make the whole time of the camp and if they are seriously interested in you that you can come for a partial time. Ask them to prorate the amount of the camp also, they can do this by NCAA rules. (at least they used to). My son did this for one camp, the program was genuinely interested in him, they had his come in and pitch and hit for a short period of time and he left. They knew him by name and it was clear that there was interest. The head coach followed up with a visit to see my son play at a HS game. (he did not get an offer from the program, but it was clear there was serious interest, and you can sometimes gain this by talking to them and seeing if they will modify THEIR program for you.