Really not trying to promote our website, but Anup Sinha wrote this article which I found very interesting. Thought it would be good for discussion purposes in many different ways.
The Draft and the Hall of Fame
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very interesting stuff, good reading for this time of year.
didn't Anup used to work for teamone? not a name you forget.
didn't Anup used to work for teamone? not a name you forget.
Good article. I wonder which year will prove to be the most talented, draft-wise/hall-of-fame-wise.
Notice how many of those on the list were drafted out of HS
quote:Nce how many of those on the list were drafted out of HS
could you expound on that?
Sorry for the fat fingers. I just noticed that 14 out of the 23 players listed were taken directly out of HS. I would guess in the early days prior to the draft, this number would have been higher. I wonder how those numbers compare to say the 2008 draft. Yea we all know that 1st round has x number of HS players. Was it the same back then?
About Ozzie Smith. This is kind of interesting and has been talked about often here. (Walking On)
After high school, Smith attended Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in 1974 on a partial academic scholarship, and managed to walk-on to the baseball team. In addition to his academic education, Smith learned to switch-hit from Cal-Poly coach Berdy Harr. When Cal Poly's starting shortstop broke his leg midway through the 1974 season, Smith subsequently took over the starting role.
After high school, Smith attended Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in 1974 on a partial academic scholarship, and managed to walk-on to the baseball team. In addition to his academic education, Smith learned to switch-hit from Cal-Poly coach Berdy Harr. When Cal Poly's starting shortstop broke his leg midway through the 1974 season, Smith subsequently took over the starting role.
quote:we all know that 1st round has x number of HS players. Was it the same back then?
PG could probably give us that stat.
The round the player was drafted in is mandated by raw talent and not production. (unproven at this point).
Selection into the HOF is based on production. The higher the talent the better the odds of being the best. A HS player with extreme talent will be heavily recruited in the top rounds therefore I think you will always see a higher percentage of players in the HOF that were drafted out of high school than in the "general population" of MLB players.
Just for kicks I played with the numbers.
The average round for ALL the HOF players was the early 4th round. If we discard the two highest picks Sutter (21) and Sandburg (20) the round drops to early in the 2nd round. MANY hs players would forgo college and sign with the "carrot" of 2nd round money.
Fungo
quote:didn't Anup used to work for teamone? not a name you forget.
Yes. I also believe he was then a scout for the Padres or some other team. Been around for a while.
Interesting article.
Lots of hidden stuff in number crunching that makes you tilt your head and ask yourself, "Wonder what that means?"
Fungo, that is some good info.To lean on another thread,Talent is king.The more talented you are,the higher in the draft you'll go,More playing time in the minors, sooner to the bigs,quicker in the starting lineup,more chances to put up HOF numbers.I know that is over simplified and there are many factors and situations that are not accounted for in my timeline.
Now days there are more college players selected in the draft. However the first round is usually fairly even between HS and College.
It's not that I don't like seeing first round picks succeed, but it is great when we see lower round picks become Hall of Famers. There will be a 62nd round pick making it in a few years.
BTW, Yes Anup did used to work for Team One and Jeff Spelman quite a few years ago. We always had a lot of respect for those guys and they did a great job back then. When Team One was sold Anup took a scouting job with the Padres in Southern CA. Up until recently he had worked with the St Louis Cardinals. He's a high class guy who knows his stuff and has earned a lot of respect in the scouting community.
It's not that I don't like seeing first round picks succeed, but it is great when we see lower round picks become Hall of Famers. There will be a 62nd round pick making it in a few years.
BTW, Yes Anup did used to work for Team One and Jeff Spelman quite a few years ago. We always had a lot of respect for those guys and they did a great job back then. When Team One was sold Anup took a scouting job with the Padres in Southern CA. Up until recently he had worked with the St Louis Cardinals. He's a high class guy who knows his stuff and has earned a lot of respect in the scouting community.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Really not trying to promote our website, but Anup Sinha wrote this article which I found very interesting. Thought it would be good for discussion purposes in many different ways.
The Draft and the Hall of Fame
It would be interesting to see if a single Scout could be linked to more than one HOF.
What an interesting article, and one of the most intriguing lists I've read.
You gotta love the bonus amounts listed - Kirby Puckett got $20K in the 1982 draft. Anup is right: "the whole process has become more special as the players being considered for election are those you’ve actually watched play." I remember seeing Puckett play for the first time in his rookie season at the Metrodome. We saw him run down a fly ball in CF and I turned to my husband and asked, "Where did we get this kid?" Twins fans were smiling and cheering about Kirby that year, and a few years later he led the Twins to WS victory. "Kirrrr-Beeeee PUCK-it!!!"
Julie
You gotta love the bonus amounts listed - Kirby Puckett got $20K in the 1982 draft. Anup is right: "the whole process has become more special as the players being considered for election are those you’ve actually watched play." I remember seeing Puckett play for the first time in his rookie season at the Metrodome. We saw him run down a fly ball in CF and I turned to my husband and asked, "Where did we get this kid?" Twins fans were smiling and cheering about Kirby that year, and a few years later he led the Twins to WS victory. "Kirrrr-Beeeee PUCK-it!!!"
Julie
Julie,
To me that was the most interesting part of that article.
Just think you could have Ozzie Smith for $5000, Wade Boggs for $7500, Johnny Bench for $6000 and Goose Gossage for $8000. Even recently inducted Ricky for $10,000.
The draft has produced 23 Hall of Famers. The total amount of money spent to sign all 23 of them for $610,000. That might not get you one good second rounder these days.
Even doing the inflation thing… I wonder how much $5000 was worth when Ozzie signed?
To me that was the most interesting part of that article.
Just think you could have Ozzie Smith for $5000, Wade Boggs for $7500, Johnny Bench for $6000 and Goose Gossage for $8000. Even recently inducted Ricky for $10,000.
The draft has produced 23 Hall of Famers. The total amount of money spent to sign all 23 of them for $610,000. That might not get you one good second rounder these days.
Even doing the inflation thing… I wonder how much $5000 was worth when Ozzie signed?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Even doing the inflation thing… I wonder how much $5000 was worth when Ozzie signed?
I found an inflation calculator on the internet. Their answer is: What cost $5000 in 1977 would cost $16924.87 in 2007. (They didn't have the ability to put it in 2009 dollars.)
quote:Even doing the inflation thing… I wonder how much $5000 was worth when Ozzie signed?
In 1977, the average CEO's compensation was 50 times the lowest paid worker in that company, now it is 1500 times. By that math, Ozzie would cost $7.25 million to sign. I guess the MLB hasn't done too bad with inflation when signing their "franchise player".
Then Paul Molitor who signed for $77,500 in 1977 would get $116.25 million to sign if he were drafted today. 
Nice signing bonus!
Nice signing bonus!
I hurried up to do this in order to change the subject (politics) that this was headed. Then noticed someone had deleted those posts.
Of those 23 “drafted” players who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame, it’s interesting to look at the home town/State they came from.
9 came from California
2 came from Minnesota
2 came from Pennsylvania
1 each came from Florida, Texas, South Carolina, Washington, Oklahoma, Ohio, Illinois, Maryland, and New Hampshire.
If I get the time, think doing this with all the HoF’s would be interesting.
Of those 23 “drafted” players who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame, it’s interesting to look at the home town/State they came from.
9 came from California
2 came from Minnesota
2 came from Pennsylvania
1 each came from Florida, Texas, South Carolina, Washington, Oklahoma, Ohio, Illinois, Maryland, and New Hampshire.
If I get the time, think doing this with all the HoF’s would be interesting.
Here is the number of Hall of Fame members from some states. I think some will find this very interesting and maybe surprising! Especially as this represents what is suppose to be the top baseball people in history. Why would Florida be so low? That one surprised me!
NY – 27
PA – 23
CA – 20
IL – 19
OH – 18
TX - 16
MO – 10
IA – 7
OK - 6
GA – 5
MI – 5
FL – 4
WI – 4
MN – 3
AZ – 0
Here is where the other states can be checked. Just pop in home state and search.
HoF Search
NY – 27
PA – 23
CA – 20
IL – 19
OH – 18
TX - 16
MO – 10
IA – 7
OK - 6
GA – 5
MI – 5
FL – 4
WI – 4
MN – 3
AZ – 0
Here is where the other states can be checked. Just pop in home state and search.
HoF Search
Perhaps the explanation regarding Florida could be that the state was not heavily populated before the 50's or 60's. Just a guess.
I was going to put this up on our site, but it fits well here, so I’ll post it here first.
I was really surprised by the small number of Hall of Fame players from the state of Florida.
floridafan, posted
That made sense, so I thought I would check something a bit more recent. We are very aware of the large amount of talent in the state of Florida, so we thought we would look at last year’s (2008) MLB All Star rosters to see where the current top players came from. We know that Florida only trails California in overall number of professional players. So one would expect that would relate to things like the number of Hall of Famers or the MLB All Star rosters.
Once again, that list just showed the big difference between California and the rest of the country. It also showed that the top players are likely to come from any part of the country. Of course, the list revealed the impact that Latin America players have in the Major Leagues, especially the Dominicans. I really expected Florida to have a large number of players on this list, but it really didn’t end up quite the way I thought.
There were some other interesting numbers that popped up.
2008 Major League All Stars…
Signed out of high school – 23
Signed out of College DI – 22
Did not play College – 40
Signed as Free Agents - 17
Signed out of JC – 2
Signed out of DII – 1
Signed out of DIII – 2
And how about this…
Players born in warm weather states (not counting FA’s) – 20
Players born in cold weather states (not counting FA’s) – 25
Players from mid climate states - 4
Players who went to warm weather High Schools – 22
Players who went to cold weather High Schools - 23
12 all stars were born in a different state than the state they graduated from High School
56 were born in the same state where they graduated from High School.
Most all stars by state or foreign country they were born in
11 - Dominican Republic 16.4%
10 - California 14.9%
4 - Kentucky 6% (How about that!)
4 - Texas 6%
4 - Venezuela 6%
3 - Canada 4.5%
3 - Virginia 4.5%
2 - Florida 3%
2 - Georgia 3%
2 - Japan 3%
2 - Louisiana 3%
2 - Michigan 3%
2 - Washington 3%
1 - Arkansas 1.5%
1 - Arizona 1.5%
1 - Colorado 1.5%
1 - Massachusetts 1.5%
1 - Mexico 1.5%
1 - Minnesota 1.5%
1 - Missouri 1.5%
1 - North Carolina 1.5%
1 - New Jersey 1.5%
1 - New York 1.5%
1 - Ohio 1.5%
1 - Oklahoma 1.5%
1 - Panama 1.5%
1 - Puerto Rico 1.5%
1 - South Dakota 1.5%
1 - Tennessee 1.5%
Most all stars by state/country where they played high school
9 – California
9 – Dominican Republic
4 - Venezuela
4 – Texas
3 – Canada
3 – Florida
3 - Virginia
2 – Colorado
2 – Georgia
2 – Japan
2 – Kentucky
2 – Louisiana
2 – Michigan
2 – Missouri
2 - Washington
2 – New York
2 – Ohio
2 - Tennessee
1 - Arkansas
1 - Arizona
1 – Mexico
1 – Minnesota
1 - Nevada
1 – New Hampshire
1 – North Carolina
1 – Oklahoma
1 – Panama
1 – Puerto Rico
MLB all star rosters last year…
2008 American League All Stars
Last Name – State/country born and HS if different than ST born (signed out of)
Mauer – MN (HS)
Youkilis – OH (College DI)
Pedroia – CA (College DI)
Jeter – born NJ, HS MI (HS)
Rodriguez – born NY, HS FL (HS)
Hamilton – NC (HS)
Ramirez – born Dom Rep, HS NY (HS)
Suzuki – Japan (FA)
Ortiz – Dom Rep (FA)
Navarro – Venezuela (FA)
Varitek – born MI, HS FL (College DI)
Morneau – BC Canada (HS)
Kinsler – AZ (College DI)
Young – CA (College DII)
Crede – MO (HS)
Guillen – Venezuela (FA)
Longoria – CA (College DI)
Drew – GA (College DI)
Quentin – CA (College DI)
Sizemore – WA (HS)
Bradley – CA (HS)
Duchscherer - born SD, HS TX (HS)
Halladay – CO (HS)
Kazmir – TX (HS)
Lee – AR (College DI)
Nathan – born TX, HS NY (College DIII)
Papelbon – LA (College DI)
Rivera – Panama (FA)
Rodriguez – Venezuela (FA)
Santana – Dom Rep (FA)
Saunders – VA (College DI
Sherrill – TN (College DI)
Soria – Mexico (FA)
2008 National League All Stars
Last Name – State/country born and HS if different than ST born (signed out of)
Soto – Puerto Rico (HS)
Berkman – TX (College DI)
Utley – CA (College DI)
Ramirez – Dom Rep (FA)
Jones – FL (HS)
Braun – CA (College DI)
Fukudome – Japan (FA)
Holliday – OK (HS)
Soriano – Dom Rep (FA)
Martin – Ont Canada (JC)
McCann – GA (HS)
Gonzalez – CA (HS)
Pujols – born Dom Rep, HS MO (JC)
Uggla – born KY, HS TN (College DI)
Ramirez – Dom Rep (FA)
Wright – VA (HS)
Guzman – Dom Rep (FA)
Tejada – Dom Rep (FA)
Hart – KY (HS)
Ludwick – born FL, HS NV (College DI)
McLouth – MI (HS)
Cook – born KY, HS OH (HS)
Dempster – BC Canada (HS)
Haren – CA (College DI)
Lidge – born CA, HS CO (College DI)
Lincecum – WA (College DI)
Marmol – Dom Rep (FA)
Sheets – LA (College DI)
Volquez – Dom Rep (FA)
Wagner – VA (College DIII)
Webb – KY (College DI)
Wilson – born MA, HS NH (College DI)
Wood – TX (HS)
Zambrano – Venezuela (FA)
I have no idea what any of this means, if anything at all, but it is fun to look at this stuff and think. I apologize if there are any errors. Haven’t really double checked this yet.
I think "Slugger" is going to like this.
I was really surprised by the small number of Hall of Fame players from the state of Florida.
floridafan, posted
quote:Perhaps the explanation regarding Florida could be that the state was not heavily populated before the 50's or 60's. Just a guess.
That made sense, so I thought I would check something a bit more recent. We are very aware of the large amount of talent in the state of Florida, so we thought we would look at last year’s (2008) MLB All Star rosters to see where the current top players came from. We know that Florida only trails California in overall number of professional players. So one would expect that would relate to things like the number of Hall of Famers or the MLB All Star rosters.
Once again, that list just showed the big difference between California and the rest of the country. It also showed that the top players are likely to come from any part of the country. Of course, the list revealed the impact that Latin America players have in the Major Leagues, especially the Dominicans. I really expected Florida to have a large number of players on this list, but it really didn’t end up quite the way I thought.
There were some other interesting numbers that popped up.
2008 Major League All Stars…
Signed out of high school – 23
Signed out of College DI – 22
Did not play College – 40
Signed as Free Agents - 17
Signed out of JC – 2
Signed out of DII – 1
Signed out of DIII – 2
And how about this…
Players born in warm weather states (not counting FA’s) – 20
Players born in cold weather states (not counting FA’s) – 25
Players from mid climate states - 4
Players who went to warm weather High Schools – 22
Players who went to cold weather High Schools - 23
12 all stars were born in a different state than the state they graduated from High School
56 were born in the same state where they graduated from High School.
Most all stars by state or foreign country they were born in
11 - Dominican Republic 16.4%
10 - California 14.9%
4 - Kentucky 6% (How about that!)
4 - Texas 6%
4 - Venezuela 6%
3 - Canada 4.5%
3 - Virginia 4.5%
2 - Florida 3%
2 - Georgia 3%
2 - Japan 3%
2 - Louisiana 3%
2 - Michigan 3%
2 - Washington 3%
1 - Arkansas 1.5%
1 - Arizona 1.5%
1 - Colorado 1.5%
1 - Massachusetts 1.5%
1 - Mexico 1.5%
1 - Minnesota 1.5%
1 - Missouri 1.5%
1 - North Carolina 1.5%
1 - New Jersey 1.5%
1 - New York 1.5%
1 - Ohio 1.5%
1 - Oklahoma 1.5%
1 - Panama 1.5%
1 - Puerto Rico 1.5%
1 - South Dakota 1.5%
1 - Tennessee 1.5%
Most all stars by state/country where they played high school
9 – California
9 – Dominican Republic
4 - Venezuela
4 – Texas
3 – Canada
3 – Florida
3 - Virginia
2 – Colorado
2 – Georgia
2 – Japan
2 – Kentucky
2 – Louisiana
2 – Michigan
2 – Missouri
2 - Washington
2 – New York
2 – Ohio
2 - Tennessee
1 - Arkansas
1 - Arizona
1 – Mexico
1 – Minnesota
1 - Nevada
1 – New Hampshire
1 – North Carolina
1 – Oklahoma
1 – Panama
1 – Puerto Rico
MLB all star rosters last year…
2008 American League All Stars
Last Name – State/country born and HS if different than ST born (signed out of)
Mauer – MN (HS)
Youkilis – OH (College DI)
Pedroia – CA (College DI)
Jeter – born NJ, HS MI (HS)
Rodriguez – born NY, HS FL (HS)
Hamilton – NC (HS)
Ramirez – born Dom Rep, HS NY (HS)
Suzuki – Japan (FA)
Ortiz – Dom Rep (FA)
Navarro – Venezuela (FA)
Varitek – born MI, HS FL (College DI)
Morneau – BC Canada (HS)
Kinsler – AZ (College DI)
Young – CA (College DII)
Crede – MO (HS)
Guillen – Venezuela (FA)
Longoria – CA (College DI)
Drew – GA (College DI)
Quentin – CA (College DI)
Sizemore – WA (HS)
Bradley – CA (HS)
Duchscherer - born SD, HS TX (HS)
Halladay – CO (HS)
Kazmir – TX (HS)
Lee – AR (College DI)
Nathan – born TX, HS NY (College DIII)
Papelbon – LA (College DI)
Rivera – Panama (FA)
Rodriguez – Venezuela (FA)
Santana – Dom Rep (FA)
Saunders – VA (College DI
Sherrill – TN (College DI)
Soria – Mexico (FA)
2008 National League All Stars
Last Name – State/country born and HS if different than ST born (signed out of)
Soto – Puerto Rico (HS)
Berkman – TX (College DI)
Utley – CA (College DI)
Ramirez – Dom Rep (FA)
Jones – FL (HS)
Braun – CA (College DI)
Fukudome – Japan (FA)
Holliday – OK (HS)
Soriano – Dom Rep (FA)
Martin – Ont Canada (JC)
McCann – GA (HS)
Gonzalez – CA (HS)
Pujols – born Dom Rep, HS MO (JC)
Uggla – born KY, HS TN (College DI)
Ramirez – Dom Rep (FA)
Wright – VA (HS)
Guzman – Dom Rep (FA)
Tejada – Dom Rep (FA)
Hart – KY (HS)
Ludwick – born FL, HS NV (College DI)
McLouth – MI (HS)
Cook – born KY, HS OH (HS)
Dempster – BC Canada (HS)
Haren – CA (College DI)
Lidge – born CA, HS CO (College DI)
Lincecum – WA (College DI)
Marmol – Dom Rep (FA)
Sheets – LA (College DI)
Volquez – Dom Rep (FA)
Wagner – VA (College DIII)
Webb – KY (College DI)
Wilson – born MA, HS NH (College DI)
Wood – TX (HS)
Zambrano – Venezuela (FA)
I have no idea what any of this means, if anything at all, but it is fun to look at this stuff and think. I apologize if there are any errors. Haven’t really double checked this yet.
I think "Slugger" is going to like this.
Joe Nathan was D3- Stony Brook didnt go D1 till about 4 years after he left.
Thanks K Complex. Guess that makes two DIII MLB All Stars in 2008.
Please let me know if there are other mistakes.
Please let me know if there are other mistakes.
Interesting, PGStaff.
You know I enjoy that type of analysis.
With tongue firmly in cheek, it looks like a lot of young ballplayers will be moving to the Dominican Republic, flying to East Cobb for lessons, and playing summer ball in California.
You know I enjoy that type of analysis.
With tongue firmly in cheek, it looks like a lot of young ballplayers will be moving to the Dominican Republic, flying to East Cobb for lessons, and playing summer ball in California.
The results don't really surprise me.
What I get from this is that athletic talent is pretty evenly distributed across the U.S.
Those in FL, TX and CA benefit from their warm weather and year-round baseball. At age 18 they may be more advanced.
But if you put them all into pro development, within a few years the advantages of greater playing experience even out, and talent and drive rise to the top irrespective of state of origin.
What I get from this is that athletic talent is pretty evenly distributed across the U.S.
Those in FL, TX and CA benefit from their warm weather and year-round baseball. At age 18 they may be more advanced.
But if you put them all into pro development, within a few years the advantages of greater playing experience even out, and talent and drive rise to the top irrespective of state of origin.