Interesting Play

I would have counted the run because it was before the last out - unearned, but a run. I'm assuming the controversy was because the kid that hit the ball never got on base, but everything was still in play IMO since it was an error. Seems like it took the kid a long time to get to first - did he injure himself when he fell (not that it makes a difference in your scenario).

The error does not make a difference. It could have just as well been a base hit.

The player actually tore his ACL and was unable to get up to get to 1B. He is an outstanding player and I hope that he recovers fully.

FBG - Yes, I understand the error doesn't make a difference - I guess that was part of my point.

I can now see why the young man didn't make it to first! Hope he has a full and speedy recovery.

How can you say there was an error when the batter/runner was retired before reaching 1b? I say the run doesn't count. Score it a 3-4-2-3 double play.
Fungo

Fungo,

Good point about the error. It is not an error because the batter/runner was put out at 1B.

But why doesn't the run score?

Luke, I'm sure you're right. With my thinking it seems like if they had gotten the out at first initially, I could understand, but by going to home plate first - that would have allowed the run to count. I do see your point though about the error since the kid was finally out.

I've been thinking about this one... since the 3B runner has scored, and the 2B runner has already past third there is no longer a force on the runner who started the play at 2B, the force play on him would have been to third, since he was put out at the plate via a tag, the first runner scores. The play at first results in an out. Inning over

Is that right?

At the time the rules committee ruled the run counted because we felt the tag play at home negated any forceout and therefore the run counted.

It looks like we were wrong!

Per the Case Book ruling #9.1.1 situation I; which supports rule 9 section 1.1 of the baseball rule book; basically supports that if the 3rd out is made as a force at 1st base and the batter/runner does not reach base safely, then no runs can score. The example is as follows:

Bases loaded, 1 out. The batter his a ball off the outfield wall. The runner on 3rd scores, the runner on 2nd scores and the runner on first is thrown out at home plate (2nd out). The batter ends up on third base. The batter/runner missed first base and is out on appeal. NO RUNS SCORE! The batter/runner did not reach first base safely and was forced out at first base for the third out.

FBG - I bet there's more than one that would have gotten that call wrong. Myself for one! Chalk one up for Fungo!

That was my other guess.

I was about to allow the run just to stay on lafmom and Glove Man’s good side.

For the record: My thinking agreed with Glove Man's at the time of the protest. The game was delayed 20 minutes while the rules committee went back and forth on the decision.

The team that gave up the run ended up winning the game. I usually don't root, but I'm now glad they won.

Arent baseball rules fun?........who needs umpires when we have you guys here.......!!

Interesting indeed.

I know that no run can score if the third out is a force out but have to admit that I've never seen or even heard of it happening that way.

I came in late to the thread but I had no run scoring. However, I'm sure many experienced guys would have either missed it or had a pretty good discussion before coming up with the right answer. My first thought was no run but I certainly tried to second guess myself.

I originally thought the run would count. But is this situation materially different than, say, bases loaded, grounder to short, who fields it, tags the runner going to third while the runner on third scores, and the shortstop throws to first for the out.

Seems like it is just a double play ending the inning (albeit an odd one) and no run.

Pretty strange circumstance!

Michael/Pilsner/Rob....

If we, as umpires, posted this play on any of the main umpire websites I can most assure us all that we would be accused of posting a "TWP".....

But as seen........sometimes third world plays happen.........

No umpire here. Had I been there I would have counted the run because it scored before the 2nd out was made and that 2nd out wasn't a force. Based on what is said here I guess I would have been wrong. But based on my understanding (just enough to be dangerous) that's what I thought was right and how I would have answered before those that know answered.

Bkekcs,

The last I heard, there are something like 200+ errors in the offical rules of baseball. Errors meaning ommissions, or counter rulings. And that does not include just flat out confusing dialog..
Plus the rule book does not have every situation covered....so all of this can make an difficult job even more so.

In most ruling situations, your approach is very much what most umpires do and that is to apply basic logic and think the play through.....Most of the time that works fine....

Then there are those times that the play is rare or so convoluted that multiple rulings can apply.......or one ruling will supercede another.......In the umpire community we call those plays "3rd World Plays" as you hardly ever see them....

You were on the right track!........the track just took a twist...

Very interesting. This would be an entertaining one, for as a coach, if I pulled a rulebook out on the field..........

Yes, it is.......But of course you, as a coach, know that pulling a rule book out on the field is not a good idea.....

not that it has ever happened to me...... ..

Or that it would even bother me........

My first post.
It should not matter if the second out was a force, it was a double play!
But i'm baseing this on a runner on second and third with one out.
ball hit to SS tags runner on second, runner crosses home. and throw to first for 3rd out.
Run doesn,t count.
I think what confused the rules committee was the first basemans boot. which should not have been an error since there was no harm?

As the head of the rules committee on this play my excuse is we just screwed up. LOL

What fooled us is that one run scored and the second out was a tag play at the plate - not a force out like the play you describe. Since it was a tag play we felt that it negated the force at 1B for the third out.

We were wrong. we even used a rule book (but its kind of like a dictionary. if you don't truly know what you are looking for you may never find the answer).

But it proves that no matter what you think you have never seen everything at a ballgame.

Isn't that whats great about this game, just when you think you saw it all. oops there it is.
My favorite saying: THATS BASEBALL!