Is it a Hit or Error?

Sounds like a hit to me. But its a judgement the scorekeeper who sees it should make.

Ball hit between fielder's legs and never touched is an error though.

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"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

Sounds like a hit to me.

Here's another one. Shot into the hole. SS makes an absolutely fabulous backhand grab. Runner is getting down the line pretty quick. SS has to throw quickly, sets, fires low and 1b can't handle it. Play is close but runner is out if 1b fields cleanly. Runner is probably safe is SS doesn't rush throw. Hit or error?

quote:

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Originally posted by CADad:
Sounds like a hit to me.

Here's another one. Shot into the hole. SS makes an absolutely fabulous backhand grab. Runner is getting down the line pretty quick. SS has to throw quickly, sets, fires low and 1b can't handle it. Play is close but runner is out if 1b fields cleanly. Runner is probably safe is SS doesn't rush throw. Hit or error?

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Ca,
Sounds like a hit in this situation for sure since the ss had to make a great play to stop it. I would think - hit - no error.

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

quote:

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Sounds like a hit to me. But its a judgement the scorekeeper who sees it should make.

Ball hit between fielder's legs and never touched is an error though.

________________
"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

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Justbb,
Sometimes you can't really go by what the scorekeeper does on "away" games. They tend to protect their pitcher's ERA or other topdog's fielding stats.

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

CADad, in my book that has to be a hit. The fielder should not be penalized for making a great play, probably on a ball that would not be reached by many.

This is why many stats do not mean much. Too many arbitrary decisions made.

Interesting topic. In the book "Money Ball" there is pretty much a whole section devoted to fielding evaluation and ends up stating that the Error is the worse fielding statistic invented by the English guy that was knowledgable about Cricket back in the 1800's that came up with the first set of baseball stats.

The book claims that to make an error that you have to first do something good, like make it to the ball. If you are very slow, you don't make it to as many balls in play, therefore have fewer chances to make an error and thus make fewer errors for the year. Thus a good quick defensive player may be unduly penalized. The book goes on to say some computer whiz set up a stat based on range and plays made vs. plays attempted to come up with a better way to judge defensive abilities of players. They divided the feild up into several hundred segments and broke ball speed into several divisions and then, by reviewing tens of thousands of plays, determined what plays and average player should be able to make in what segment of the field if the ball is hit there at such and such a speed. The more plays made, and more made per attempt in the harder various segments, and the rating goes up. Supposedly this is what the Oakland A's draft based on for defense.

Chicks,

The rule also says, ..."unless in the opinion of the scorekeeper, the play could have been made with ordinary effort". The key phrase is ordinary effort. Say a lazy fly ball is hit right at the centerfielder. The centerfielder takes a few steps in, waits, and the ball lands right behind him, untouched...this is NOT a hit!

Two thoughts:

On the "didn't touch it rule" does that apply to the OF as well? Seems like OF with bad judgement would be getting off light.

On the great play by the SS, depending on the level of play I'd rule it an E3. If your SS busts his butt to make a great play the 1B needs to make a pick and get the out.

If IF's are expected to make plays on less than routine groundballs, shouldn't the 1B have to make plays on less than routine throws?

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"Champions are made when no one is watching."

Definetly a hit. As far as outfielders is concerned, there are a ton of mis-played doubles in the score book every year. Thinks he has it, and all of a sudden it is over his head, as the hitter trots into second base. The question would be as a coach defensively, do you want the great shortstop with range who will make some errors, or the shortstop who doesn't even get to the ball, and it goes for a hit?

CADad - I call that a hit - and did a week and a half ago in a game at our HS. Sounds like a nearly identical play. I called it a hit because it took above "ordinary effort" to make an out.

How about this one - bloop pop into shallow CF. Centerfielder, SS, and 2B all converge and all have a decent but not easy chance at it, but hesitate and it falls between them untouched as they practically run into each other. Hit or error?

________________
"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

In our HS scrimmage game we had a three plays that fit this discussion.

#1 Soft liner to right. OF misjudges (goes back, then up) lunges for the ball, goes in and out of the glove as he hits the turf. Error?

#2 High pop fly to short left. Probably well within the shortstop's range, but he didn't pick the ball up (near sunset). The left fielder got a late break and was slow to the spot. The ball lands with nobody closer than 10 feet to it. Some could argue that it SHOULD have been caught. Hit?

#3 Pop up down the first base line 30-40 feet behind 1st base. The first baseman turns the wrong way and can't make the catch as the ball drops just inside the foul line. Hit?

Bizazz, I would say #1 is an error, #2 is a hit, and #3 is a hit.

How about another scenario. High Pop fly in foul territory between home and first, catcher and first baseman are going after the ball, lands in the first basemen's glove and falls out. Error? From what I understand you do not award an error to the first baseman UNLESS the hitter gets on with a hit after the "second life". Thoughts?

Remember the rule:
NOTE: In applying the above rules, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.
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Then it becomes judgemental to the scorekeeper, whom is biased for away games.
and depending on what the scorekeeper thinks about "level of play" for a high schooler...

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

quote:

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Originally posted by Bizazz:
In our HS scrimmage game we had a three plays that fit this discussion.

#1 Soft liner to right. OF misjudges (goes back, then up) lunges for the ball, goes in and out of the glove as he hits the turf. Error?

#2 High pop fly to short left. Probably well within the shortstop's range, but he didn't pick the ball up (near sunset). The left fielder got a late break and was slow to the spot. The ball lands with nobody closer than 10 feet to it. Some could argue that it SHOULD have been caught. Hit?

#3 Pop up down the first base line 30-40 feet behind 1st base. The first baseman turns the wrong way and can't make the catch as the ball drops just inside the foul line. Hit?

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I say all three are hits, giving benefit of doubt to batter! (by rule)

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

Bizazz - error, hit, hit.

dadchs - I think thats an error.

________________
"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

men on 2nd and thrid, 2 out slow chopper to ss who has to hustle to pick it up just at the infield grass bare handed would have been close at first runner was 20' from bag and ss through it in the duggout. was ruled as hit and 2 earned runs!

How about this one for high schooler, night game:
Monster high fly above 2b and he can't pick it up in the air, comes down behind him in the dirt?

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

I think the scorekeeper scored them error, hit, hit. That was the way I thought they should be as well.

If my boy's at the plate, it's a hit! Oh, by the way...if my boy's in the field trying to catch it, it's a hit then, too!


Talent Is Never Enough!

Dadchs24,
The dropped foul pop up happened to our first baseman with an additional twist. Two outs, hitter pops up foul to first baseman and he drops it while camped under it. Our pitcher ends up walking that batter with "second life". Next batter hits bomb over center field fence. Next batter strikes out for third out. Error to first baseman and both runs unearned.

It's so simple---Throw the ball, catch the ball.

I have a similar take as that of DaddyBo ... from the perspective of a pitcher's mom, it must be an error ...

ShapsMa

Chicks - I was at an SF Giants game a couple of years ago on a clear day. Very high popup to the infield. SS and 2B lose it in sun, ball falls on infield untouched. Ruled a hit.

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"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

Chick...going back to your first question that started this string...it is an error in college, a hit in majors and a guess in high school. I am living that exact play. Also, I do not think if you touch the ball, it should make any difference. What I tell my son...don't let the ball get by you. Knock it done...let other people worry about the errors. If nothing gets by, that helps the team out, even if the out is not made right then.

ahsbb,
As for deflecting the ball I believe you are correct as stated in the rule:
NOTE: A hit shall be scored if the fielder attempting to handle the ball cannot make a play, even if such fielder deflects the ball from or cuts off another fielder who could have put out a runner.

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

Well, here's a part of the OBR rule:

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NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged. NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules. (a) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he muffs a foul fly, to prolong the time at bat of a batter whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out.

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There's more, but I think that covers most of the scenarios that have been described here. At a recent game we had two plays in the same inning: batter 1 hits the ball 320', outfielder goes back, circles around, the ball glances off his glove. Scored as an error. Next batter hits a sky high popup between the plate and the pitcher's mound. While the pitcher and catcher are waiting for it to return from orbit, they get confused, and the ball falls between them. Mental error. Scored as a hit. Logic, but no justice. Ah, baseball...

D'oh!

Speaking of score keepers and errors: To all the parents who are score keepers at your sons HS games, when you score a dropped ball as a hit when your son is at bat--you're not fooling anyone! Everyone who is at the game knows what the deal is. That is one of the reasons you will often hear that stats are not that important to the college scout or mlb scout. If it makes you feel better to say that little Tommy hit 50 points higher than the next kid because he got the benefit of a few 'non-errors'--go right ahead, but it doesn't necessarily make him a better hitter!

IMO the only stat that means anything is Wins and losses!

Case in point: Catcher's coach does the book. Catcher's have '0' passed balls all year! Pitchers take an awfull lot of wild pitches.

It just doesn't matter much, we know what happened!

The only stats that matter in HS are the ones that don't call for interpretation. Remember, Perception = Reality

"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee

Justbb,
I call that a hit even though every instinct says it should really be an error.

quote:

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
Chicks - I was at an SF Giants game a couple of years ago on a clear day. Very high popup to the infield. SS and 2B lose it in sun, ball falls on infield untouched. Ruled a hit.

________________
"The only people I ever felt intimdated by in my whole life were Bob Gibson and my daddy," Dusty Baker.

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justbb,
I think it has to be a hit because of the wording in the rule.

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81

quote:

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Originally posted by Pitchinside:
IMO the only stat that means anything is Wins and losses!

Case in point: Catcher's coach does the book. Catcher's have '0' passed balls all year! Pitchers take an awfull lot of wild pitches.

It just doesn't matter much, we know what happened!

The only stats that matter in HS are the ones that don't call for interpretation. Remember, Perception = Reality

"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee

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You are correct, everyone on the team knows who the players are, it doesn't take stats to figure it out!

Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball, the rules and realities of the game—and do it by watching first some high-school or small-town teams.
Jacques Barzun
NY Times 31 May 81