Is Juco "College Baseball"?

1. - It's the same in many ways and different in many ways and varies widely just as the array of four year college baseball experiences do.  Competitively, many JC's in CA, TX and other areas would stand up against plenty of lower to mid level 4 yr programs in most parts of the country.  The daily regimens can be just as demanding.  Facilities can be better or worse.  There is still academic accountability and the balancing of commitments to school, baseball and often work. It is still a young adult venturing out on his own for the first time with a host of heightened responsibilities.  The "same" list goes on.  On the flip side, many JC's (not all) are "commuter" and more local in nature.  Combine that with the shorter timeframe and the more prevalent sense that this is a temporary step to the 4 yr destination, you typically don't have quite the school loyalty, bond, brotherhood in comparison.  It is still there in most cases for sure.  Just not typically as deep.  Exceptions definitely apply in both camps.  There are far more than "two different views on it".

2. Having been away a while, my first reaction to your post was, once again, I wish you'd get over these reassurance, image, status and labeling issues but after years now, I recognize that ship has sailed .  I get it.  We have all battled the thoughts to varying degrees I reckon.

@Francis7,

I look at it a little differently.   Forget labels.   Just like anything in life, it is what you make it.   

Is there an opportunity to get college credits and play competitive baseball then transfer all those skills to another college or university?  Absolutely.   Is there an opportunity to ignore academics and play college baseball then have to start all over again?  Absolutely.  Is there an opportunity to save some money, get college credits, play baseball and then move onto whatever it is that you are looking for in life?   Absolutely.    Again, this is about the individual not the institution.   I'd give you the same answer if a recruit was choosing between several 4-year offers....what works best for the recruit and gives them the opportunities that match their goals.

As always, JMO.

I know of many top Jucos that have and would beat D1 programs, even lower end Power 4's.  I saw it with my own eyes this fall.

If that's not COLLEGE baseball, I don't know what is.

Master, while I don't discount your main point, Fall is a whole different animal in a lot of ways.  But that is a whole 'nother topic...

@cabbagedad posted:

Master, while I don't discount your main point, Fall is a whole different animal in a lot of ways.  But that is a whole 'nother topic...

I get what you're saying, I'd discount it too if I wasn't there.

I am with cabbagedad, Fenway and MasterP.

There is a huge decreptancy between JUCO BB programs in northern states vs. southern or midwest. The issue is you don't understand because you don't try to venture out of your bubble.How many times have we discussed this on this site?

With that being said, Juco serves a multi purpose for all students whether in sports or education. My neice who lives in NJ chose to go to a Juco as she was not ready for the 4 year experience.

I'm sure some Juco's in the south can beat some 4 years in the north. Just the same as some D2's can beat certain D1's in a one game situation.

Then again, I would bet that the very best SEC school can beat some A-Ball teams in a one game situation. But, that doesn't then mean that the SEC team is considered as being a professional team...at least not in the old days. (These days, maybe the best SEC should be considered as pro teams?)

I'm 100% sure that many JUCO's from the south could beat  many 4 year programs (non P4) from the North, not only in a single game, but in a series.

From LL  to the HS select level you can see that (with a few stud exceptions), the talent level in the south and west is much more advanced and WAY deeper. You see it at national HS select events (excluding the "national" teams).

And due to the fact that Northern (non P4) schools DO NOT recruit nationally, that lack of mid level talent gets pushed to the D1 level in that area, where as in the south there is not enough room on D1 rosters (due to them recruiting nationally and the level of talent),  so A LOT of that talent siphons down to the JUCO level.

It would be really  interesting if all D1 schools would recruit nationally (but that is not financially feasible........for most students or the institution).

and @cabbagedad  #2.   

Francis 7;

Have you watched the games of the California JC schools. Specifically I believe I could send you video of Jerry Weinstein Sac. City College games. Maybe you can interview Jerry as he also Coached the U of Miami,  Pro Baseball and the Israel National Team.

Bob

Different question.....

Suppose to save money a kid goes to a local northeast JUCO that has good academics that will transfer to a D3 4 year that he wants to attend. BUT the baseball team is very mediocre at the local JUCO. Would that kill his chances of being able to play at a D3 college?

Lets say for argument's sake the kid is in question is a D3 prospect not D2 or D1. with a 4.0 GPA.

A local JUCO (now NAIA) here in Ohio used to have 3-4 pitchers at a time who were 95+mph guys.  They recruited ALOT of guys from the Dominican and Puerto Rico.  The problem was the guys would get here in the fall......realize Ohio weather is miserable compared to what they are used to and they'd leave before spring practice even got into full swing lol

@BB328 posted:

Different question.....

Suppose to save money a kid goes to a local northeast JUCO that has good academics that will transfer to a D3 4 year that he wants to attend. BUT the baseball team is very mediocre at the local JUCO. Would that kill his chances of being able to play at a D3 college?

Lets say for argument's sake the kid is in question is a D3 prospect not D2 or D1. with a 4.0 GPA.

Good players that are good people will always be able to find a home.

Players on bad teams hit and pitch against a variety of skill levels. If a player handles his business and is fishing in the right ponds the quality of the team he plays for is not going to hold him back.

@DaddyBaller posted:

Good players that are good people will always be able to find a home.

Players on bad teams hit and pitch against a variety of skill levels. If a player handles his business and is fishing in the right ponds the quality of the team he plays for is not going to hold him back.

Yes but...  on one hand, it is a plus that you have already proven you can compete while handling the rigors of college sports.  On the other hand, many D3's (particularly HA's) don't dip into the transfer/JC pool much at all, so it depends very much on the specific target schools.  NAIA is generally a totally different animal, littered with JC transfers, mid-level drop-downs and internationals.

@BB328 posted:

Different question.....

Suppose to save money a kid goes to a local northeast JUCO that has good academics that will transfer to a D3 4 year that he wants to attend. BUT the baseball team is very mediocre at the local JUCO. Would that kill his chances of being able to play at a D3 college?

Lets say for argument's sake the kid is in question is a D3 prospect not D2 or D1. with a 4.0 GPA.

D3 baseball teams have no roster limits.  The coach can roster as many players as he wants, he will play the players he thinks will help the team win.  So when you say "kill his chances of being able to play," do you mean to be rostered, or to get in games?

Are you asking, will playing at a mediocre juco improve the kid's baseball skills?  Who can say?  Would he play in a summer collegiate league?  How good a baseball team does the D3 have?

I agree with cabbagedad's #1.  Functionally, if you can get the job that you want with an associate's degree, then the juco education/baseball experience will be exactly what you need - who cares whether someone calls it "college" or not?

But the point about not having 21-22-year-olds is legit.  To use a high school comparison, would you call being on the HS j.v. team "playing high school baseball"?  One of my other sons was on the j.v. golf team for 4 years.  I think he eventually got a letter.  Did he "play high school golf"?

@Consultant posted:

Francis 7;

Have you watched the games of the California JC schools. Specifically I believe I could send you video of Jerry Weinstein Sac. City College games. Maybe you can interview Jerry as he also Coached the U of Miami,  Pro Baseball and the Israel National Team.

Bob

... to add to Bob's point, most CA JC's (which operate under a different association than the rest of the country's JC schools) are quite competitive.  If you scan the roster of any school across the country, across all levels, that utilizes JC transfers, there is a fair probability you will see a CA JC kid on it.  This is, in part, also because of the supply and demand in CA with not enough roster spots at 4 yr schools as compared to number of talented HS and JC players.  It is somewhat the same in FL and TX although I am not as tuned in as I used to be.  Adbono would know.

My opinion is yes, I consider Juco baseball college baseball. Some jucos are good and some are not. There's a large variety of players. Juco is not for everyone. There's no pampering. You grind. You may have to sleep in the same bed with another guy. There's large rosters. Your teammates come from various backgrounds. I can't think of a better way to prepare my son for life. It will really test your love of the game and if you aren't cut out for it, the financial investment, if any, is forgiving.

@BB328 posted:

Different question.....

Suppose to save money a kid goes to a local northeast JUCO that has good academics that will transfer to a D3 4 year that he wants to attend. BUT the baseball team is very mediocre at the local JUCO. Would that kill his chances of being able to play at a D3 college?

Lets say for argument's sake the kid is in question is a D3 prospect not D2 or D1. with a 4.0 GPA.

I think it depends on the kids stats and metrics at the Juco and the level of the D3.

Playing sport in college at any level is a big accomplishment IMO. There are more similarities than difference across the levels.

Every year more juco players are drafted than D2, D3, and NAIA combined.

@Consultant posted:

Francis 7;

Have you watched the games of the California JC schools. Specifically I believe I could send you video of Jerry Weinstein Sac. City College games. Maybe you can interview Jerry as he also Coached the U of Miami,  Pro Baseball and the Israel National Team.

Bob

Yup, I played against JW and Sac City in the midst of their glory years in the late 90's. I played at American River back with Coach Higgins. Our teams used to battle. Think about a hotbed of baseball in Sacramento and all those players coming to the surrounding jucos. Sac City was a powerhouse, kids would move on to D1 without hardly playing because those teams were successful. Both teams would have draft picks who were juco redshirts. It was crazy times back then. Then Consumnes River and Sierra would eventually become conference powers for some years.

@auberon posted:

Every year more juco players are drafted than D2, D3, and NAIA combined.

Correct. Bryce Harper, Albert Pujols, Jorge Posada are famous examples of players drafted from Juco. MLB has improved their milb experience, but still more of the talented HS players in the country choose 4 year programs over Juco. My son was one of them in one point in time.

Juco's purpose for athletes is to offer opportunities to transfer to 4 year schools and improve academics as well as improve athletic  skills. They also offer opportunities to be drafted in 2 years.

When son went to college, if you wanted to transfer you sat a year at another D1 or dropped down to Juco and then back to D1.

Baseball is baseball. The rules in the game don't change whether you play D1, 2, 3, JUCO, NAIA etc.

JMO

It's funny, I was told about 6 or 7 years ago by another baseball dad (who also is an SEC/Big 12 Umpire) that Juco was for broken players: academically, physically, or behaviorally.  Fast forward and my 2024 is at a good D1 Juco in Texas, and he's not broken and never has been.  And I loved the way Momball summed it up.  I couldn't be happier with the fit my boy found with his coach and his teammates.

@auberon posted:

Every year more juco players are drafted than D2, D3, and NAIA combined.

Great point

@Tres Elakes 24 posted:

It's funny, I was told about 6 or 7 years ago by another baseball dad (who also is an SEC/Big 12 Umpire) that Juco was for broken players: academically, physically, or behaviorally.  Fast forward and my 2024 is at a good D1 Juco in Texas, and he's not broken and never has been.  And I loved the way Momball summed it up.  I couldn't be happier with the fit my boy found with his coach and his teammates.

FWIW, at my son's Juco, 40% of the kids on the roster now were at another school before this spring. So, I think there's still an element of Juco being a restart situation for SOME players. That said, his Juco is a perennial WS contender. So, the coach does look for players who can help him win now and a big part of that is landing players who are ready to step right in and make a positive contribution. And, that usually means older players, 2nd year guys.

Arceku21;

Probably watched you play at Santa Rosa JC. The teams from the Bay Area [Contra Costa, DVC, San Mateo] were also competitive. Many of the Coaches were also Pro Scouts. The High School Summer Leagues [no pay to play] were the "feeder" teams.

Bob

I have to make a point about Northeast talent. First, what is the Northeast has to be established. Is it everything north of Maryland and Virginia? Is it everything north of Pennsylvania and New Jersey?

But regardless of your choice there’s plenty of talent in the northeast. The talent leaves and goes south to play college ball. Everyone on my son’s Pennsylvania based 17u team went P5 except for one who chose an Ivy over Duke. A majority of the sixteen regular rostered players in my son’s class went ACC or SEC.

When Vanderbilt won the national championship their #1, #2, closer and cleanup hitter were all from Massachusetts. Imagine the difference for Boston College baseball if they could keep all the talent in the region. Tim Corbin is from New Hampshire. He excels at mining New England for talent.

It was very common when I chatted up parents at BC games their students kid was there to watch the opposing team play they had committed to play.

Theres talent everywhere. I believe Lou Holtz once said discussing recruiting, If you find a beautiful girl in the hills of North Carolina she’s still beautiful when you take her to New York City.

Keep in mind the #1 pick in the next NBA draft is likely to be Cooper Flagg. He’s from Hamden ME. It’s a small town (8,000 pop) outside Bangor ME (31,000 pop) 230 miles north of Boston. Quebec City Canada is closer.

Mark Roger’s was once the fifth pick in the MLB draft. He’s from an island off the coast of Maine. The total population of the town the island is part of is 6,800.

@BB328 posted:

Different question.....

Suppose to save money a kid goes to a local northeast JUCO that has good academics that will transfer to a D3 4 year that he wants to attend. BUT the baseball team is very mediocre at the local JUCO. Would that kill his chances of being able to play at a D3 college?

Lets say for argument's sake the kid is in question is a D3 prospect not D2 or D1. with a 4.0 GPA.

You will need to look at the pipeline of the juco program,

check out the 2024 season. 

2025 season insights will be available within the next few weeks.

https://collegebaseballinsight...line-dashboard-free/

@Tres Elakes 24 posted:

It's funny, I was told about 6 or 7 years ago by another baseball dad (who also is an SEC/Big 12 Umpire) that Juco was for broken players: academically, physically, or behaviorally.  Fast forward and my 2024 is at a good D1 Juco in Texas, and he's not broken and never has been.  And I loved the way Momball summed it up.  I couldn't be happier with the fit my boy found with his coach and his teammates.

This article is dated

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...f-the-juco-pipeline/

based on our insights still growing for 2025 season.

I have intentionally stayed out of this discussion up to now in order to not say something I would regret. But if you have ever seen JuCo baseball in TX, CA, FLA, MS, OK, KS, AZ, or LA the question would never be asked. Only someone in an area where JuCo baseball wasn’t strong would ask this question. I have said many times that regional differences in JuCo are huge - and they are. People tend to think what’s true in their local area is the norm. But it isn’t always and that’s never more true than with JuCo baseball. But anyone that thinks JuCo isn’t legit college baseball is a fucking idiot. And anyone that poses the question isn’t far from it either.

@adbono posted:

I have intentionally stayed out of this discussion up to now in order to not say something I would regret. But if you have ever seen JuCo baseball in TX, CA, FLA, MS, OK, KS, AZ, or LA the question would never be asked. Only someone in an area where JuCo baseball wasn’t strong would ask this question. I have said many times that regional differences in JuCo are huge - and they are. People tend to think what’s true in their local area is the norm. But it isn’t always and that’s never more true than with JuCo baseball. But anyone that thinks JuCo isn’t legit college baseball is a fucking idiot. And anyone that poses the question isn’t far from it either.

I’ve been busy so I’m late to the party on this one. Having a kid who successfully navigated the juco route, this feels a bit like clickbait…

Is juco college baseball? Is 2A HS baseball, high school baseball? Of course it is…

Most Texas juco’s would hold their own against any 4-year school playing against just their freshman and sophomore players. The top juco programs?  Forget about it…  

Everyone’s milage will vary, but from this parent’s perspective, I’d liken juco to two years of bootcamp and SEC D1 to top level pro sports. Both have positives and negatives, and both foster connections that appear to be lifelong. I do feel there’s a special bond with the juco lot, they embraced the suck and came out the other side connected in ways undefinable to the uninitiated. Also, it’s hard to go from juco to the SEC without feeling thankful for the luxuries. If there was any entitlement in juco athletes, I think it’s either ground out of them or they’re ejected.

The year my son was in the SEC was magic, but I loved the 2 years of juco – hence the JucoDad moniker.  Look down on juco all you want, the kids in the programs and their coaches will just use it as fuel…

I skipped over a lot of this thread but want to mention that a lot of players who want to play professionally used to go the JUCO route.  I can't say if that is the same today. 

@CoachB25 posted:

I skipped over a lot of this thread but want to mention that a lot of players who want to play professionally used to go the JUCO route.  I can't say if that is the same today.

No more draft and follow rule, IIRC

@adbono posted:

I have intentionally stayed out of this discussion up to now in order to not say something I would regret. But if you have ever seen JuCo baseball in TX, CA, FLA, MS, OK, KS, AZ, or LA the question would never be asked. Only someone in an area where JuCo baseball wasn’t strong would ask this question. I have said many times that regional differences in JuCo are huge - and they are. People tend to think what’s true in their local area is the norm. But it isn’t always and that’s never more true than with JuCo baseball. But anyone that thinks JuCo isn’t legit college baseball is a fucking idiot. And anyone that poses the question isn’t far from it either.

I'm curious on your opinion regarding the programs at Dallas College Eastfield and Dallas College Richland, compared to the best Juco in Texas. The reason why I ask is because they both would probably be considered strong Juco programs in some northeast states.

@JucoDad posted:

I’ve been busy so I’m late to the party on this one. Having a kid who successfully navigated the juco route, this feels a bit like clickbait…

Is juco college baseball? Is 2A HS baseball, high school baseball? Of course it is…

Most Texas juco’s would hold their own against any 4-year school playing against just their freshman and sophomore players. The top juco programs?  Forget about it…  

Everyone’s milage will vary, but from this parent’s perspective, I’d liken juco to two years of bootcamp and SEC D1 to top level pro sports. Both have positives and negatives, and both foster connections that appear to be lifelong. I do feel there’s a special bond with the juco lot, they embraced the suck and came out the other side connected in ways undefinable to the uninitiated. Also, it’s hard to go from juco to the SEC without feeling thankful for the luxuries. If there was any entitlement in juco athletes, I think it’s either ground out of them or they’re ejected.

The year my son was in the SEC was magic, but I loved the 2 years of juco – hence the JucoDad moniker.  Look down on juco all you want, the kids in the programs and their coaches will just use it as fuel…

The one thing about SOME of the Juco teams that I have seen in the Northeast is their depth of pitching. Most teams have around 12-17 pitchers. But, some teams only have around 4-5 "quality pitchers."  That would kind of make sense though, because, if you are a quality arm, you're going D1 or D2 to a 4 year MOST of the time.

Francis …

It’s been a while since I paid any attention to JuCo ball in the area. The only programs I remember being any good at all were Gloucester (now Rowan) in NJ and Northampton in PA. Otherwise playing quality and better JuCo ball required going south to Harford in MD.

Harford plays in the Maryland JuCo conference. I know nothing about the overall quality of the conference.

When one of the kids didn’t meet the NCAA SAT requirements for his UNC offer they sent him to Louisburg in NC. This was a while ago. They were great then. I have no idea now.

@Francis7 posted:

I'm curious on your opinion regarding the programs at Dallas College Eastfield and Dallas College Richland, compared to the best Juco in Texas. The reason why I ask is because they both would probably be considered strong Juco programs in some northeast states.

That is a fair question. My answer would be this. Look at the results of Eastfield and Richland vs other JuCos in Region 5. Eastfield is a really good D3 JuCo but they could not compete well in Region 5 vs other D1 JuCos in that region. That’s my point entirely. Richland is pretty good. So is Eastfield. They are nothing compared to McLennan, Blinn, Weatherford ,San Jac and other Juco teams in the SW. D3 JuCos in Texas is a joke compared to the best JuCo teams in Texas. It isn’t even close. So the best JuCo teams in the NE could not compete with the best JuCos in Texas - and in some other areas as well.

@Francis7 posted:

No more draft and follow rule, IIRC

@CoachB25 posted:

I skipped over a lot of this thread but want to mention that a lot of players who want to play professionally used to go the JUCO route.  I can't say if that is the same today.

The higher profile juco programs often get players who are looking to improve their draft position out of HS. Or HS players who think they can elevate their abilities to be drafted (my kid's plan A) skipping the 3 year wait of the 4-year school path.

I believe the draft and follow rule was reinstated in 2022.

The easiest way is look at how many alumni they have at next level.

Here is NJCAA-D1 for Region 5 for the 2024 season

College Baseball insights does a nice job of consolidating the data, but if you can put up with a few adds I like the free thebaseballcube.com for drilling down on the data. Search a juco region or even a high school name to see active and past player's data.