Is second base the best chance to play high level with " average tools"

Huh?  Have you watched Pedroia play second base?  Have you watched him hit against the very best pitching in the world?  Do you realize how many levels you have to excel at to sniff an MLB field, how many REALLY exceptional baseball players there are at each level that you have to beat out? 

You picked a proven high-level all-around MLB player, lifetime .300 hitter with high OBP, some power, steals some bases, multiple gold gloves, multiple all-star selections, etc. and used that as your example of someone with "average across the board tools"  ??????

Now, if you are saying that, of that select group of best infielders in the world, those who have a bit weaker arms may be able to earn a spot at 2B if their other tools keep them in that same elite company, then I can begin to agree with your premise.

All things being equal, an SS would probably make out better than 2B for recruiting purposes.

I was obviously talking major league average tools not average average. Pedroia does not really have a standout tool by mlb standards (range power and arm) but he obviously can play. Basically he is 50-60 across the board.

Could a guy with those scouting grades ( no standout tool in the 70 range) win an mvp and be a multiple all star at another position? Obviously he can play but he became a star player without top end tools.

...and he was a shortstop for Arizona State!

Originally Posted by Dominik85:

I was obviously talking major league average tools not average average. Pedroia does not really have a standout tool by mlb standards (range power and arm) but he obviously can play. Basically he is 50-60 across the board.

Could a guy with those scouting grades ( no standout tool in the 70 range) win an mvp and be a multiple all star at another position? Obviously he can play but he became a star player without top end tools.

...and he was a shortstop for Arizona State!

And 2003 national defensive player of the year: "While he led the NCAA in doubles (34) and hit .404 (120-for-297) at the plate, the 2003 Pac-10 Co-Player of the Year is nationally known for his phenomenal play at shortstop." http://www.thesundevils.com/Vi...amp;ATCLID=207849342

Pedroia is a bad example, but I think it is true that a second baseman will generally be less "toolsy" than a shortstop, and is unlikely to have the power of a corner guy. On the defensive spectrum it is comparable to center field in value.

From a recruiting standpoint, its not uncommon for College programs to recruit 3+ SS's in same class. The thinking being that a shortstop can be moved to 2nd, 3rd or OF. As far as MLB guys like Pedroia or even Jose Altuve, While I personally love those players, one of the unforeseen drawbacks to their success is that it has created a sort of rally cry for parents of undersized high school players looking to play at the next level.

The unfortunate truth is that body size matters as far as recruiting at the College and professional level.Parents can bitch and moan about how unfair it is or shout the proverbial " Look at Dustin Perdroia " but it doesn't change anything. Body size is a tough one because once a player walks on the field RC's and Pro scouts immediately draw conclusions....both ways. A player 6'2 185 can just trot out to CF and a scout may think 'Wow look at the body on that guy' and seemingly work up a favorable outlook towards the prospect before he's even seen an AB

Read the history of each player. They have the 6th tool.

Bob

MLB second baseman aren't really born, they're mostly made out of guys who didn't quite have the tools for SS, or sometimes 3B (or, more rarely, other positions).  They also have relatively short careers, relative to most other position players, because they usually have less room to lose a step (whether on offense or defense) before they fall behind the competition.

Which is not to knock Pedroia, or Utley, or any other truly great 2B.

The second baseman will most likely be a recruited shortstop who didn't win the shortstop position. In fact, outside pitcher and catcher every player on the field might be a former shortstop or center fielder at the previous level. Pedroia was an All American shortstop in college.

Pete Rose often referred to himself as an average athlete who worked hard and hustled to excel. Therefore some people believe he was an average athlete. Rose was all state in both baseball and football in high school. His perspective of average was compared to all the best athletes in MLB.

On my son's college team, every position player was a SS, CF or catcher in HS. My son (who is a pitcher is college) was a 3B as well as P in HS, he was given a chance to be a 2 way player. That lasted a week of his freshman fall season before he knew if he wanted to get on the field is was as a P.

When trying to figure out how valuable a player is... Check their salary!

Pedroia will make over $150,000,000 playing baseball.  Second basemen in the Red Sox farm system probably don't look at it like second base is such a good chance to make it.

I was using pedroia as an example because scouting reports said that he could hit but they also said no tool Projects to be above average (power, arm, range...).

obviously his hit tool proved to be above average, although his power, range and arm are probably average (MLB average!). I still think it is uncommon for a Player like this to become a Superstar like he did.

the reason I say this is his Speed. typically if you are an undersized Player you Need to be a burner on the bases. altuve is short too, but he is really fast. pedroia can obviously Play but he also has below average footspeed. obviously he is not slow as dirt but typically if you want to make the Majors at 5"8 you better be really fast.

again I'm not doubting that pedroia obviously can hit, run the bases and field, if he couldn't he would not Play there but if we are talking about PURE TOOLS like Speed, arm strength and power he was not that impressive by MLB STANDARDS.

there are plenty of prospects with better physical Tools who fail.

BTW a similar Player might be 2014 Overall number 2 pick Alex bregman. he Plays shortstop currently but most guys say he will end up at second.

Scouts also say about him, that he can hit but all neither tool Projects to be much above average (which is of course his in the 95th percentile or so for all HS Players). it is quite uncommon for such a guy getting drafted that high, for example the guy getting drafted behind him is projected to have much better Tools (rogers).

A lot has been said about Pedroia on this thread. This clip HAS TO to relate to Consultant's "6th tool":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XvYC987jWU

The best tools don't always mean best player!

Often I have said and believe that the feel for the game is just as important as any of the tools.  I really think it is a natural ability, just like running, jumping, throwing, etc. Some have it, many don't.

Not sure exactly how to describe it. Maybe it is the ability to make the right decisions without even thinking about it. maybe it is simply instincts.

Whatever it is, Pedroia has lots of feel for the game.  The link by Ripken Fan is a great example.

We knew a player, went in the first round, had unbelievable tools.  He was a legitimate 5 tool prospect.  He did make it to the Big Leagues, but his lack of feel for the game never improved.  Released after a couple years.

Even those with great tools need to have this feel to reach their potential. This feel for the game has helped make Pedroia a super star. He has probably come as close to reaching his full potential as most anyone in the game.

Seeing that nearly all ML second basemen were once shortstops I don't think making it as a second baseman is very easy.  It is very rare to see a HS second baseman end up being a major league second baseman.  So that means you have to be one of the best shortstops to be a next level second baseman. Now we are really getting competitive!

thanks PG that makes a lot of sense.

but do you agree that a 5"8 guy with only average Speed becomes a Superstar? most of those smaller MLB 2B men probably have top end Speed, right?

Ripken Fan; Checked my 2000 Area Code roster. Doug McMillan coached the SF Giants Area Code team and select Dustin.

During the Giants 5 games at Blair field his "controlled aggressive" play was evident. The scouts selected Dustin to the "All Star" game at Blair Field.

Other players in the 2000 Area Code games were David Wright, Delmon Young, Ryan Braun, Jon Lester,Jason Nix, Scott Kazmir, Paul Janish, Prince Fielder, Jared Weaver, Tim Cantu, Sergio Santos, Mike Pelfrey, James McDonald and Mike Jones.

Three weeks later, the Area Code All Stars played the National HS teams from Japan and Korea in Goodwill Series XIV.

Yes, the 6th Tool is an asset. Can it be taught? Yes, if a player understands the importance.

Bob "founder of the Area Code games and Goodwill Series International.