Is the talent spread too thin in the Richmond area?

I assume you're talking about the talent being spread thin across various travel/showcase/elite teams?

First off, you're right...there has never been a shortage of talent in the Richmond area. There are some weaker years, some outstanding years, but overall the level talent is very solid.

I think there are several factors though...at younger levels and into say the freshman year of high school, there just seem to be a lot of teams. Everybody and their brother has put together a "travel" team at 15U, 14U, etc. Some of these teams are able to attract and retain a very solid core group of players and then build from there. Other teams are weaker, or they're a revolving door, or they just don't aspire to be "great". I don't mean that last comment as anything bad. Some teams are simply put together to give the kids an opportunity to play some extra baseball. I think there is definitely a place for these types of teams.

Then, I think, as the kids start to get older you see lots of consolidation. Kids discover other interests, kids get cut by their high school and face the realization that maybe they're not a big leaguer after all. The competition gets better as the talent gets consolidated and some of the weaker teams naturally get weeded out. What you're left with is largely players of at least a somewhat higher caliber (certainly not all future college players, but mostly probable contributors at the high school level).

Once you reach this point, I think numerous factors contribute to the talent being spread out. First, there has been an expansion of options locally. The Braves have been around for quite a while. Then you've got the Canes (who I think are around 5-6 years old) and the Cardinals who are now 2-3 years old. You've also got RBA which operates at various levels from the Elite team right down (and that's not to mention the East/West/South RBA which I've never quite understood if there is any interaction among the locations). With these teams, you're talking (mostly) about the truly elite player who is probably going to have a D1/pro future. Different people look for different things among these teams based on cost, events, facilities, instruction, etc.

I know the Cardinals focus on Virginia as a whole but there is a large Richmond contingent on those teams. The Canes have a broader footprint (and even two divisions based loosely on, I think, the nothern mid-Atlantic and the southern mid-Atlantic). And you've got other teams that may not be based out of Richmond but who still get players occasionally like some of the groups from tidewater. You also have to factor in non baseball stuff like other sports, jobs, etc.

All in all, I don't think the talent is all that spread out. The Cardinals are competitive nationally with a strong Richmond flavor. RBA Elite does a solid job of competing on a larger scale with mostly Richmond kids. The Canes are obviously very good even though they have fewer Richmond guys.

I guess that's a long winded way of saying that I don't think the talent is spread overly thin at the upper levels of talent.

quote:

ctandc asked....Is the talent spread too thin in the Richmond area?

To what end?

If the goal is world domination by having a great national tournament team....then possibly yes. There is a lot of talent in Richmond and Virginia in general that wants exposure to national college programs. That is whey they attend national tournaments and national showcases.

THere are others that are more focused on high school baseball, state tournaments and showcasing. My sense of it is these folks want to focus on exposure at the state & local level.

Players and parents will migrate to clubs that they feel comfortable with, meet their goals, and give them the necessary exposure to the next level. The Canes, Cardinals, Braves and RBA West/East/South teams do all of that today. While it would be nice to put together a super tourunament team from all that talent, it probably won't happen becasue each is meeting their organizational goals today.

This reminds me of a conversation Rich Graham and I had with Ryan Wheeler (since departed to become the head coach at Temple) in between games of a doubleheader held at UR in June 2010.

Wheeler's comment was to the effect that he wondered sometimes why they went scouting far and wide, when really you could recruit a top D-1 team from just the greater Richmond area. To which Rich replied, yeah, but you can't get them all to go to one school and one program. Not because they're fractious or they can't get along. Just because different people want different things. In the case of UR, for example, if a fair number of your recruits are getting, say, 25% each, not every player you might like could pick up the remaining 75% of a 50k+ annual cost, nor otherwise cover it with financial aid. And not everyone would meet the admissions department's criteria just for getting in to the school.

I think it's great that we have a whole host of options available for our area kids. Assuming you're good enough to play at that level, there are substantial differences from one program to another. We think we have a good grasp on what we're doing, but we also acknowledge that one size does not fit all. And frankly, there's more collegiate level talent around here than any one team could hope to accommodate.

I guess there are some who wish they could see one "super team" that had every guy they thought was the very best at his position. Then we could roam the nation proving to the world that our area is in fact the very best!

But it would never happen, because before we ever hit the field we'd beat ourselves silly arguing over who belonged on the team and who didn't!

I feel like the higher you go up the ladder the more decisions are based around individual concerns rather than team concerns. Players are more concerned with getting the exposure rather than winning a trophy. Not that winning a trophy is a bad thing but the trophy they are looking for comes in the form of a college jersey.

I actually think that spreading the talent out with that in mind is a good thing. It brings a little parity to things and ends up making for some excellent baseball. It used to be that only a couple of teams dominated the scene and pulled all the attention. Now there are a number of outstanding squads that are filled with above average talent that will bring in the scouts whenever a showcase matches them up.

So I guess the question from me would be: Is that a bad thing?

Interesting Topic and I could not agree more with Emanski's post.

I do not think this issue is isolated to just the Va area either - considering my recent move to Ca just two months ago. There are a number of 14/15U teams out there, and a lot of that comes from the game getting bigger than the kids... so teams pop up one by one so the game can revolve around a specific player or two (to get more playing time).

Speaking of the game getting bigger than the kids - I think that has a lot to do with talent getting spread out. Once the kids start playing on a 90ft field, some of them will realize they may not be as competitive as they thought and will find another sport or activity to fill their time. Now the other half of the team at the 14/15 age looking for a new team that can maintain a full roster.

I am seeing this quite a bit in the So Cal area. There are about 10, 14U teams here with enough player to maintain 6 full rosters (notional numbers). Many teams are unable to fill a roster because kids are either playing s****r, football, water polo, etc. this fall. So the baseball talent is dispersed to teams that can "maintain a roster" with consistency. The baseball players that are doing other things this fall will most likely try to find a team at a later date. Hopefully the game does not get bigger than them while they have taken the time off.

In short, I think the talent gets dispersed and weeded out very shortly after their first season on a 90ft field.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I assume you're talking about the talent being spread thin across various travel/showcase/elite teams?

...I think there are several factors though...at younger levels and into say the freshman year of high school, there just seem to be a lot of teams. Everybody and their brother has put together a "travel" team at 15U, 14U, etc. Some of these teams are able to attract and retain a very solid core group of players and then build from there. Other teams are weaker, or they're a revolving door, or they just don't aspire to be "great". I don't mean that last comment as anything bad. Some teams are simply put together to give the kids an opportunity to play some extra baseball. I think there is definitely a place for these types of teams.

Then, I think, as the kids start to get older you see lots of consolidation. Kids discover other interests, kids get cut by their high school and face the realization that maybe they're not a big leaguer after all. The competition gets better as the talent gets consolidated and some of the weaker teams naturally get weeded out. What you're left with is largely players of at least a somewhat higher caliber (certainly not all future college players, but mostly probable contributors at the high school level)....

quote:

I’ve had a coach from a well respected program in North Carolina contact me about fielding a team under their banner. So it’s not a secret that there is some great talent in this area.

Back before there was a Canes North team or a Cardinals team, those who for whatever reason didn't link up with the Braves would someimes play for, e.g., the Dirtbags. Jazz Hicks comes to mind as one example.

At this point I think the options are so readily available that I'm not sure why someone would do that. But, to each his own.

It's not at all unusual for someone to start a team just because they love coaching. Nothing wrong with that. And if affiliating with someone else's organization helps you get started, that's fine, too. In the end, in order to survive you have to do something that meets other people's needs, and if you do that, Godspeed.

quote:

I feel like the higher you go up the ladder the more decisions are based around individual concerns rather than team concerns.

Actually on our team we teach the exact opposite.

I've always thought that the process of reaching maturity is the path by which you learn that you are not the center of the universe. We live in the helicopter parenting era, and part of that manifests itself in the prolonging of self-centered decision making well into the adult years. Indeed, many never get over it.

On a youth travel team, Johnny often thinks nothing of failing to show up for a particular game if, e.g., he feels like going to King's Dominion at the spur of the moment. He won't join a team unless he gets to pitch, play SS and bat cleanup. Also, Dad knows best so he wants to coach or, failing that, Dad wants to hector the coaches with demanding e-mails day after day.

Now, no college coach I know of wants to recruit that. So by the time you get to your HS age travel team, you'd better have matured to the point that you're past all that.

Our team has turned away any number of talented players over these sorts of things. For example, we offered a roster spot to a very talented LHP. He wanted us to promise him playing time at 1B as well. While we truly feel this kid will pitch at the D-1 level, and that he could really help our team in that role, we candidly told him that we did not see him as a D-1 offensive player and that besides, we had a top caliber 1B already. He made it clear we would have to accommodate him to land him. What this means is, he's not going to play for us.

Look, if you just love baseball and want to play it all the time, God bless you. Go play Legion ball, college club ball or adult ball for as long as you can do it. But if someone is trying to make a HS travel team work its roster and its game-to-game lineups around their every desire, and then you multiply that times every guy on the roster, I'll show you a team that won't be able to function for long. If nothing else, the coach may commit suicide.

First off let me clarify. I'm not talking about consolidating talent to field a dominant team to rack up titles so some people can pound their chest like King Kong.

And let's move past the quality of these players. The kids I'm talking about, all either are, or definitely could contribute heavily at the Varsity level. We all know coaching philosophy and team dynamics and structure are different on every high school team. I've known kids that either rode the pine as FR on Varsity or even stayed at the JV level who would get significant playing time at other Varsity programs, and this isn't directly related to how good the team in question is.

And I'm not trying to take away ANYTHING from the local organizations fielding teams and getting the job done for kids looking to move on to the next level. I do see some kids that stay with programs out of loyality to the personal instruction they get from that location.

I know that each team / organization is a personal decision for a family and player. A decision based on what each is looking for...but I am seeing many parents of kids who have the potential to possibly play at the next level who are clueless as to what is really involved with playing college baseball. When I mention the 11.7 rule for Div I, or the importance of grades when school money comes into play I get blank looks from some people.

I guess I'm wondering if the whole point of the higher level teams IS to get kids exposed to programs / scouts to possibly play at the next level, then wouldn't it make the most sense to build teams that would get very deep in national / highly exposed events? It seemms that many kids get exposure because of how well their team is doing, or maybe they end up playing a highly touted program in the late stages of a big tourney, and scouts / coaches out to see the other team notice these other kids.

As for the NC based organization that contacted me, out of the blue it seemed, it just seemed to spur what I'm been thinking about lately. Personally I enjoy the organization I started. I like the sense of accomplishment seeing kids progress. I like not having to actively recruit kids..it seems many parents get caught up in that..as odd as that sounds. I've met parents of some very good ball players who are seemingly used to coaches constantly recruiting their kid...I don't miss getting caught up in that.

I know probably 5 or 6 very strong FR age players who play at the 16U/17U level on showcase, higher level travel teams. I understand the desire to compete against the best competition. I understand the benefits to this. But part of me seems to think it would better exposure for a young player to be a stud as his age level, versus a good player two age groups up. Maybe I'm wrong in this...

A lot of this I think comes from the trip to East Cobb we took last Summer, and plan on taking again. I was actually kind of shocked at the actual ability of some of the teams that came from perennial national "powerhouse" programs. I don't want to sound snobbish or stuck up, but to be honest I expected more. My kids even mentioned it to me. We went there with no expectations, just exposure to this level of competition. I know my guys got more comfortable each game they played, and I'm sure they will go in this coming Summer knowing what to expect and more than likely will play better because of it...but I can't help but think of the disappointment ( I guess that's the best word to describe it) I experienced when I showed up one morning at the Cobb Complex to watch two games with teams that are considered Nationally respected programs. I wasn't impressed. Am I jaded? Am I expecting too much?

Maybe it's just that time of the year, who knows.

As to winning big time tournaments: Whether this is important depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to play the game purely for the enjoyment of playing the game, and to win, then yes playing for titles is what you're after. This applies, e.g., for American Legion ball.

But don't confuse this with an exposure-oriented event or the goal of a placement-oriented team to get exposure for players.

The game is played to win at every level, and no matter what kind of team you think you are, whenever you're on the field you play to win. I do think scouts want to see kids play the game the right way. That's part of what they're looking for. But at most of your high level tournaments, they are there to evaluate a lot of players in a compressed amount of time. A lot of them are gone by the time the championship game rolls around. For scouting purposes, it's more important that, if they're looking to see Team X or Player Y, they know exactly when and where they're going to play. Not that they're in the playoffs or not.

From the standpoint of pitchers -- who make up about half of all college baseball recruits -- you need to get them their outings and you need to get them off the mound without over extending them. That means you may leave a kid in to finish an inning when, if you were playing to win a trophy, you might have gone to the bullpen. It means you might pull a kid after 3 shutout innings, because you've got to protect his arm and because you've got scouts there to see the next pitcher scheduled. And it means you don't save pitchers in the hope of making a championship game, because you might not get there and in the meantime your guys all need to get seen by the scouts they've been asking to follow them.

There are programs that set out to win, e.g., in Jupiter and other high level tournaments. Their philosophy is to build the highest profile for their teams, thereby attract top national caliber players, and thereby attract a host of scouts for everyone on the roster's benefit. On the teams that finish at the very top, a lot of the players are actually shoo-ins to get college deals done, they are really focusing on trying to get drafted as well. If you want to see something ugly, be around when one of them stumbles and gets knocked out early, and a handful of big time pitchers have traveled from far and wide and never get to even warm up. There are earfuls to be heard up in the stands when that happens.

So, there are teams that do that. I guess it's OK but it's never been my cup of tea.

You are on to something, though, when you mention the benefits of having a team loaded with prospects. I have always thought this was critical. Each player needs to be attracting eyes to your team. Then every player benefits not just from those who specifically came to see him, but from those his teammates drew as well.

In the best case, your team gets a reputation for bringing a lot of talent together in one place and thereby making it worthwhile for scouts to come see you, or to have you to their campuses. Ideally you'd like to have the reputation for pre-screening kids so that when you stand behind a kid, it means something to the scouts evaluating him vs. other players. That could be in terms of talent, in terms of character, in terms of being a "gamer" or a "grinder" -- or better still, all of those things.

When you saw those two "powerhouse" teams play, you never know what went on. Sometimes kids who make those teams develop cocky attitudes and they don't push it all the time. Other times, teenagers are just teenagers and they just collectively don't show up for a game once in a while. Or, maybe you were seeing the "B" team or even a "C" team that is trading on the name and rep built by the "A" team but that isn't really the "A" team in the first place. A lot of that is going around these days.

In any event, I wouldn't worry about what others are doing. Just take care of what you can control.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I guess I'm wondering if the whole point of the higher level teams IS to get kids exposed to programs / scouts to possibly play at the next level, then wouldn't it make the most sense to build teams that would get very deep in national / highly exposed events?

Probably. The great thing about pre-adult baseball in VA is that there is nothing stopping anyone from doing this (other than field availability).

As our player goes through the organized baseball process in VA, it's very clear to me that Adam Smith's Invisible Hand is guiding the ongoing, morphing infrastructure. And that's a good thing, as it spurs choices as a result of meeting demand.

Look: there are choices dictated by whatever team formation motivations are out there, be it benevolence, profit, selfishness, etc. And those teams will succeed or fail as measured by participation by players and families. But what is abundantly clear to me is that there are many, many choices, and the end result so far has been players playing, regardless of skill set, and the more playing, the better it is for the sport. This free market system is allowing families to go from one team to another to another, looking for a place that fits their criteria for that season/year. Hey: its their criteria! If the family wants a winning team, and the team wants to win, there's a potential match somewhere. If the family wants further development, and the team is dedicated towards development, there's a match somewhere. If the family wants college recruiter development, and the team is focused on recruitment, there's a match somewhere.

And it's the same free market system that allows for the creation of any team for any purpose, so long as it creates value that drives player/family participation. So if a team is created to go deep in events, then it will need to compete to acquire the players it desires. And if the player wants to be on that team, then the player needs to compete to gain a spot. Conceptually perfect.

Now should there be skullduggery, e.g., duplicitous behavior, fraud, etc., there are remedies, e.g., team leaves or player is shown the door. And if extreme fraud, there's the court system.

Will there be consolidation? There usually is as industries mature and competition remains unprotected. But who knows? Here's the beautiful part: the free market system that underpins the whole magilla will drive (or not drive) consolidation.

So would it make sense to build teams that would get very deep in nationally exposed events? Sure, so long as you make it sensible for the players vis-a-vis the choices the players have available to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
When you saw those two "powerhouse" teams play, you never know what went on. Sometimes kids who make those teams develop cocky attitudes and they don't push it all the time. Other times, teenagers are just teenagers and they just collectively don't show up for a game once in a while. Or, maybe you were seeing the "B" team or even a "C" team that is trading on the name and rep built by the "A" team but that isn't really the "A" team in the first place. A lot of that is going around these days.


In any event, I wouldn't worry about what others are doing. Just take care of what you can control.

That's probably a big part of it. And I preach the same to my players, so I guess I should take my own advice....

Winter is approaching, it always screws with my head.

Joe, you nailed it.

The one thing that does come up is that some programs promise a kid the moon in order to get his money and then they don't deliver what was promised. Take the example I gave above. If I'd told the LHP that he would definitely get to hit a lot, and then when we got to summer he discovered he was pitching once/weekend and nothing more, he does not have the greatest range of remedies. Sure, he can quit, but trying to change teams in the middle of the summer of your rising senior year is not what you'd call real conducive to recruiting. And maybe he could sue, but bringing that kind of a case successfully and cost-effectively is a real challenge.

The main check on that is for players and families to go beyond what they're promised and to check out the reputations of who they're dealing with. Where things break down is that some people are so happy to be told what they've been wanting to hear that when they hear it, they jump at the deal without asking whether the other side will be keeping its end of that bargain or not. Fools and their money are soon parted.

So, just do your homework and things will come together (assuming you are the player you think you are).

Midlo, I don't disagree with you that coaches preach team concept etc. at the higher levels. That wasn't my point. My point there was simply that as the player moves closer to going to college the decision becomes a very personal thing and its not a team decision. I might be wrong but I would bet that the majority of the players choosing a particular team do so because they feel that that team will get them to college. Obviously the stronger the team is the more attention it attracts and coaches are then able to pick and choose players that they might feel gel well together and so it takes on the personality of the coach but it is still very individual for the player himself...

A bit of an example. My son played on the Philippine National Team for 3 years. He traveled all over the world and the team won a number of tournaments. Most of the players on that team knew that they would never play above that level because of no pro-ball in the Philippines. Because of that attitude that team was super tight and did everything together. Every city they traveled to they toured around in one group and they remain life-long friends. Once we moved back stateside the game took a very different turn and we found both parents and players to be very focused on being preparing for the "next" level. Yes, they loved the team and their teammates but only if they were playing and successful. The game became very cut-throat. Fortunately it changed for us once we hit our showcase team because the coach took an active role in selecting players that would gel but he had the luxury of doing so because the majority of the players trying out were top caliber and he could pick and choose. But even then many decisions were made as to who was on the field at what game etc. based on who was in the stands and who that person (or persons) came to see. Because the purpose of the team is to provide exposure for the kids to advance to the next level and they do a very good job of that.

Let's face it, if your team won the trophy at every tournament but never placed a kid in college then how many of the top caliber players would commit to that team each year? I know that that realistically wouldn't happen but I think you get my point. And no, I don't count a HS team in this because that normally IS about the team because most players are using a private team for the college exposure anyway...

Obviously just my $.02 and probably doesn't mean a dang thing to no one but me... LOL

I agree with all that.

But I would still say that, however much HS age teams' players have individual goals, that pales in comparison to the attitudes that prevail on typical youth teams these days. The parent worship syndrome is way out of hand and I don't know that there's any way to reverse the trend. It presents one of the larger challenges for the older teams, when you are presented with a bunch of these kids and you're trying to reshape, in just a few months, attitudes that have been ingrained and indulged for years.

Sounds like the unique situation in the Phillipines may have spared you all that!

I do a see a disturbing trend that doesn't seem to be in danger of slowing anytime soon. I have a feeling it's more widespread than I would want to believe.

Parents of exceptional players are getting "Courted" for lack of a better term. They are so used to coaches and organizations coming to them to get their son to play with them, they've come to expect this.

I'm not saying all parents are this way. But I'm sure we've all seen it.

There are several kids I've got experience with that seem to continuously bounce around from team to team, and even when they are committed to one team, they show up with other teams on a consistent basis.

Sometimes I wonder when these kids are practicing, with all the different tournaments and teams they are playing with.

Unfortunately, for the kid, I know of several outstanding young players who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole because of their parent(s), and it seems a couple of these kids are starting to change based on the actions of their parents and the coaches / adults around them.

Is everyone seeing this or is just me imagining things again?

I had a conversation with the parent of an exceptional young man / player awhile back. They are convinced that the current organization / coach they are with will get their son into college playing baseball. When I asked about what colleges they (the kids / parents) have corresponded with already (the kid is a JR) they went quiet, then responded with "The coach will take care of that."

To a lot of parents believe that? Do they really think it's just a matter of showing up, paying the money, and watching an organization or coach get their kid into college?

I know reputable coaches / organizations sure wouldn't be following that line of thinking. I know coaches encouraging kids to contact schools on their own, send out video, attend camps at the schools they are interested in etc...

When I was playing, there was a local kid (older than me) who was just flat out dominant. Now this was before travel ball was really travel ball. The better players gravitated towards successful legion programs and other outlets. This kid in question, everyone around him figured he'd be playing in college, if not the MLB one day. He was that good. I asked a Coach one time about this guy, and the coach just shook his head...he told me there were several major things that kept really good younger players from progressing to college and beyond...forgive me if I screw up the order or the wording:

Size - Will he grow or is he done? He might be out muscling everyone around him at 16, but what about the next year?

Drive - Has he always been so good, without a lot of work or effort, that when others who have been busting their butt all these years catch up with him, will he have it in him to bust his butt to keep moving up?

Injury

Other interests / outside influence - He always joked the most dangerous thing for a young ballplayer was getting his driver's license and his first real girlfriend. I always thought he was joking until I watched several kids who I considered to be super studs simply walk away from the game....at the request of a girl.

And he always mentioned "..players able to get our of their own way.."

I never realized what that meant until years later.