It happens every year

its easier when the league is split with an "a" and "b" division, then the player/parents have a choice to make the "a" division or play more positions in the "b" division,

quote:

When do you tell the parents that no matter how hard the kid works he just doesn't have any ability and that if I were playing kids according to ability this kid would get minimum play and 1 at bat per game.

At that age, NEVER tell a mom her kid aint good enough and almost never tell a dad. It will almost always just make things worse. I did it once, BIG mistake!

After that, I'd smile a lot tell the parent what a great kid they have and how much I like him/her, it's really great you're (the parent) able to get to the games.
Remind her that you're only obligated to meet minimum playing time rules but that's not how you work. Let her know how hard it is to keep everybody happy and your doing as best you know how.


Then get ready, because shes probably not interested in a word you've said because it didn't include "OK I'll play him more."

What about teaching the kid to pitch? Every kid, especially those with average to above average arm strength, should be taught to pitch. If you think that he will never become much of a position player/hitter because of a lack of speed and strength, then it is your duty to teach him how to pitch......unless winning is more important than development. Perhaps then you wouldn't have to worry so much about your son's arm becoming sore/fatigued.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

One thing in running the "volunteer" leagues the person in charge has to be in charge and not worry about the slurs--- make sure all "drafts" are witnessed by arbitrary individuals and all the problems are defused

No matter what you do there will be parents who are not happy--- my answeris simple give them their money back and wish them luck .

TR....the coaches are not usually the league officials, and therefore the coach is stuck with him.....

Again, I say, teach the kid how to pitch.....

at 13-14 my kid was slow and weak with a decent arm and now he is a DI pitcher and pro prospect.

I thought that one of the coach's duties is to teach, not just put them in positions and let them play.

If there are at least 5 perennial all-stars on this team (of seven teams) then having some patience with a novice pitcher, and instructing him, should not be a problem.

This is not your father's Pony league. We draw from all the leagues in an area with a population base of about 300,000. Having 6 perennial all-stars just makes us a decent first year team. As far as the level of pitching in the league goes, the kid who won the LLWS US championship game last year gets very few pitching innings on his team. At 13 and 14 I'm looking to develop the kids I think have the most potential and I'm going to give them the most innings. This kid is fifth in line among our other potential pitchers past our top 3.

And yes we are trying to let the kids win a few games and to stay competitive in as many games as possible.

My experience is that you can't give more than 3 to 4 pitchers a meaningful number of innings during a rec season.

I also have a job and a limited number of catchers so I'm not going to sacrifice myself and my team during our limited practice times to develop a kid with little or no chance to make it as a pitcher.

I can understand how somebody can have 7 or 8 pitchers on a travel team, but nobody has 7 or 8 legitimate pitchers on a first year Pony team and anyone who tries to develop that many pitchers either has a whole lot of free time or is wasting everyone's time.

This week and next week we have 3 games in 4 days each week. I'll certainly have to use pitchers other than my 3 main ones. After that it is two games per week, and no tournaments so there are barely enough innings to go around for the 3 of them.

Backdash,
I made that mistake once back when a Mom was pushing me as to why her 9yo only got to play 3rd base in the infield. This kid was the last kid picked in the entire draft and was in danger when a ball was hit to him. Since he couldn't make the throw from second to first I figured I'd put him at third so I could have a kid at second who could make that throw at least. At 9yo I figured all the kids should get at least some time in the infield. Oh yeah, and mom wanted to know why he wasn't pitching. The one thing they forgot to mention until the end of the season or put on the medical forms was his heart condition. I won't make that mistake twice.

At 10yo there was the family who didn't understand why their kid didn't get more pitching innings. Although only one of the 4 kids ahead of him pitched consistently well that year, by the time they were 12 they were the 3 best pitchers and the best ss in the league. The ss did end up pitching well in district all-stars when needed. Even so they were good enough that we came in second that year.

At 11yo I took a year off from coaching and caused problems myself by insisting that my son's pitching innings be kept to a minimum and by telling the coach that he had 12yo playing in the outfield who were better infielders than my son.

At 12yo there was the kid who never showed up for practice whose mom stormed into the dugout to insist that he play first base. Of course I had a parents meeting early on where I had stated that the one thing I would never allow was for a parent to talk about playing time or position in front of the kids. I just told the mom to get out. Since the kid did have some talent and just hadn't played ball recently we agreed to work with him at first base during practice then give him a shot. He missed the next 4 or 5 practices.

One of my favorite quotes: "You don't know what you don't know."

CAdad....Did you ever think that perhaps one reason those 10yo pitchers who became the best 12yo pitchers in the league--did so because of the opportunities they were given to pitch? That next kid didn't get the opportunity to develop. It doesn't take any more time to develop pitchers than it does to develop hitters......don't we always hear about the shortage of pitchers on high school, college, and professional teams? Perhaps youth coaches should be trying to develop MORE pitchers rather than give the team (or the coach) chances to win.......!!!

I think if you go back and read your original post in this thread, read your last paragraph, and now you have answered your own question........you are "playing kids according to ability", even though you imply that you aren't........and, if you aren't going to help develop the kid, then be honest with the mom and tell her what you said in that paragaph, that "no matter how hard the kid works he just doesn't have any ability."

How many pitchers could we develop if we just tried to.....?

"You don't know what you don't know."

My 11yo and another 12yo carry the bulk of pitching duties on my son's Dixie Major team. My son pitches the first three innings and the other boy pitches the last three for all conference games. We pitch other kids for an inning or two for non-conference games.

Our "rec" program is somewhat different from others that I read about on here in that NO PLAYER in our area only plays travel ball. ALL PLAYERS that play for a travel team also play Dixie. Our Dixie officials schedule our games around the AAU/USSSA schedule to avoid conflicts so that we have quality players on every team.

Having said that, I was thinking about this topic yesterday. What if I hadn't insisted that my son pitch from the very beginning? What would have happened if I hadn't had him play for multiple teams? What would have happened? I believe that his opportunities to pitch now would be greatly reduced.

Well, we have a boy that is 6ft tall and has a cannon for an arm that my son has played with since T-ball. I remember that the coaches wanted him to pitch from the time that he entered Minors. The problem was that his mother thought that it was too stressful for him and wouldn't let him pitch.

Well, in practice yesterday, after all this time, that boy asked me if he could pitch. I told him that if he wanted to pitch to meet my older son in the bullpen before or after practices and we could work on his mechanics. I know that this kid has the potential to be very good but now he is going to have an uphill battle to get mound time and it will take a lot of work. My older son and I are committed to help ANY player that wants to improve and we will take the time to do it.

Grateful, I agree with you and if you don't mind, I am going to use your son's story because it is very inspirational!

R.

Grateful,
Actually one of them didn't get much of a chance to pitch at 10yo because he couldn't throw strikes in the beginning of the season. He was supposed to be #3 going into the season. My #1 pitched like a #1 pitcher, my #2 decided he didn't want to be a pitcher that year, my #3 couldn't throw strikes and my #4 was able to throw strikes often enough to get the job done. #4 and #3 were probably the two best in the league at 12yo and #1 was probably 3rd best. #3 started our first district game and got hammered by what I considered the 2nd best LL team in the nation. #4 was our most effective pitcher in district play. #1 got hit hard by all comers in district play because he no longer threw hard enough to set up his off speed pitches. The other kid never grew and never made majors. By the way, #4 got very little pitching time at 11yo at my insistance. He just worked on developing his arm strength and went to a pitching instructor after the season. Interesting concept, that a kid might work with a pitching instructor to get good enough to earn pitching innings instead of insisting that a coach dole out pitching work and innings on an equal basis to all comers regardless of ability.

Heck yes, I play kids according to ability as far as positions go and to a lesser degree as far as playing time goes. I have twelve players, the minimum playing time is 3 innings and one at bat. I bat the order. The only kid who has sat more than 2 innings in a game is one of the better players who has missed the last 4 practices and 3 of the last 5 games because he's playing for a team in another league. He wouldn't play an inning if I had the option. The only reason I don't give him just one at bat is because I'd then have another kid lose an at bat and I'd rather spread the lost at bats between all the kids by having this kid who should be hitting 5th or 6th bat last.

I'm developing pitchers primarily based on ability and use the kids with less potential in situations where they can eat innings or are just too slow for the other team to handle. I did that this weekend when after my son and another pitcher kept the game close on Saturday despite poor defensive play the defense really imploded when one kid I had in there just to make sure he got playing time dropped consecutive fly balls. We then put in the "hat pick" kid to pitch who threw slow and slower and gave up 3 or 4 runs in an inning and two thirds.

The next day I was completely out of my regular pitchers and I went with the slow baller that I know has the most ability and he did quite well against a short handed older team, missing their 3 best hitters, that just couldn't stay back on the ball and only gave up 4 runs. He threw strikes, this particular umpire had a wide zone, and as a result the defense was excellent behind him including the "hat pick" kid who played well in right field where he got far more chances than the left or center fielders. I followed him with our next best slow baller who is more of an asset in the field and doesn't have any great desire to pitch at this age but who may end up being a pretty good pitcher someday when he most likely goes from being the smallest kid on the team to one of the taller kids on his HS team. However pitching now is likely to have no impact on his future pitching as his body type is likely to change so much and the only thing we could do is hurt his arm. Unfortunately, we lost our chance to win on a baserunning blunder that we'd spent time going over at the last practice and possibly gave up a run when the first baseman (same player) failed to hold a runner on after being told to do so. Guess which player missed the last practice.

Next weekend we play Saturday, Sunday then come back again on Tuesday. Saturday's game is against an absolutely loaded team with 6 14yo who were all-stars last year and a 14yo who was an all-star in another league last year. They just manipulated things to add the 6' tall 13yo who was the best 12yo hitter last year and also managed to get the kid who won the US LLWS championship game as a coach pick despite the fact that the manager's son and coach's son are both playing on the team. Of course that has nothing to do with one having been a board member for 19 years and the other one being the player agent. We'll throw only the slow ballers against them on Saturday and save our other pitchers for Sunday and Tuesday against teams we at least have an outside chance to beat. Either the slow ballers will befuddle them or most likely they'll mercy us and be bored. After that it's two games a week and we'll use our 3 best from then on barring injury or overuse because one also pitches for a MS team. Sunday's game is against another mostly 13yo team and Tuesday's game is against the team with the two best pitchers, one throwing low 70s with good control and a good breaking ball and the other throwing mid 70s and capable of throwing high 70s and also having a good breaking ball. However, they are unlikely to throw both of them against us.

Greeting to all....

I believe that when you signed up your son or daughter < seen alot of girls play at this level also> < also politically correct being a newbe LOL > and under comments say you would like to coach a rec team you had the understanding that the last few picks will be either a o or maybe a +1 on a rating scale of 1-5 while you did your tryouts. Even a hat pick if know one has had him before. As more kids sign up they will be filled to the other existing teams then have a waiting list . Right ? And you came away with the best congrads....
Now it's your Job < yes it is a job we don't get paid for but get the rewards of teaching and watching kids grow up and hopefully succeed in this game and lets us not forget in school but, more important watch him grow an mature.
It's the coolest thing! I have coached both rec and currently travel < broward blaze 12 travel >. And have severed as a board member in the pony rec program as well so I have been down that wild road.
Back to the kid an parent. It's been my policy to show them the book and stats of there son/daughter and show them the inning's they are playing and maybe even the stats to show why in the order. It helps you explain to her that your giving him more then the required inning and bats and compare it to the last four kids. It's impossilbe to compare him to your All Stars they are going to have more at bats and play the infield. I would also explain to her < nicely> that if he was to play the infield he could get hurt. < he;s not ready to start pitching if he can't catch well or move well. It's also your job and responsibilty to ensure his saftey. Playing the infield requires he be able to catch well in order to make the play much less defend himself on a line drive .
I'm sure you/asst coach are spending extra time with him at practice and T work, so she can see that. But he needs more then that it takes extra time and practice not just the one to two days of practice he gets with me...Dad < if there is one> needs to spend more time with him in the yard or park on thier own. Or if they can afford < TR> am I right he could use a hitting instructor to improve his skills.
With all my teams it was my 9th - 12 th round picks that gave me the championships. If he can catch, throw to the cut off/lead base, back up the other OF and if in right back up 1B with a runner on, hit above 200, run the bases right then I have done my job an he has learned and had fun learning this game.
Sometimes you also have to admit to yourself she might not ever get it. Too many parents believe their kid is the next Jeter if just given the chance. Keep smiling do the best you can with him and remember the next time you draft the baggage you get with some kids.
Good luck, and remember it's all fun...

Hello all,

I personally enjoy coaching the lesser talented players on the team than the superstars. This year on my 12U rec team I drafted 2 players who are no where near as talented as the rest of the guys on the team but I saw it as a challenge to get them up to speed.

Boy #1 - Every year at the begining of the season I ask each player "Why are you out here playing ball?" This boy says, "My mom and dad made me play" Okay, more of a challenge, I need to get him to the point where he wants to enjoy coming to the ball fields. So we practice, we coach him on some basic plays to first on each position, break down the game in simple bits for him to understand. What suprises me the most is this boy can catch fly balls okay, grounders he side steps out of the way, we teach him the alligator and to use his body to block the ball. He nods and side steps again, we reinforce again. Side step yet again - something tells me he is not going to do it, but we reinforce again. BP - weak swing, free swinger. I break down the swing into simple parts and have him copy the movements. Okay he looks like he has it down. Coach throws BP, he gets some hits, kids throw BP he gets some hits. Woo Hoo! He wants to hit, thats awesome. Game time, he learns if he just stands there long enough he could draw a walk. So for the next 4 games he is standing there trying for a walk he gets 2 BB. So I pull him aside and say "I know what your doing, and you need to start swinging the bat, I dont care if you strike out but you have to take that chance and try to hit the ball." This is the boy that asks when is the game over, or how much longer. Now I cant possible put this kid in an infield position when the other boys are working hard for that spot, I cant put him in the top of the line up when the other boys are making contact. Still I continue to work him, he will hit that ball!

Boy #2 - This is the boy that daddy thinks he should be playing on the infield. He has no drive what so ever to make the plays or to hit the ball. He once told his dad he wanted to go home, he didnt want to be there. He has an okay glove, a good throw, and at times he can hit good. But last night we were playing a tight game tied up 5 minutes left on the clock 1 out runner on 1st and 2nd and we had last bat. Someone over heard him say "if we are still tied up,im gonna strikeout on purpose."

I dont know, I really enjoy coaching kids and teaching the game of baseball, but there are times when you wonder if you are even making a difference on some of these kids. I would like to believe we are and that is why I keep signing up to do this. I am not after the perfect season, but I do want them to learn something and at least enjoy the game.

squeeze play....

Good post, and good philosopies about working with the challenging kids.......this is just speculation about kid #2 and his comment about striking out intentionally.......it could be true, but it also could be his 'built in' excuse, in case he does strike out.......he may actually try to hit the ball and win the game!!

CADad

Slow down. these are 13 and 14 year old kids. You keep mentioning how you are playing this team with this "all star" and that "all star". work with what you have. quite frankly the workd all star is thrown around a little too much on this site. I watched when my son was 11 and 12 and so on. Some of these kids are all stars for a lot of reasons other than their pure baseball ability. Many of them are physically mature. He was the runt who worked his butt off. No all star for him. Today as a college player we often say what ever happened to so and so the big all star at 13 or 14. what is he doing now. So work with that kid who is not as good now or as big now. when that kid succeeds it means more to him and you because more went into it.

Will is pretty much right on the mark here - slow down

CaDad said-

quote:

5 of us got "stuck" with a 12th player. I probably got the best of those 5 as he has an average or even slightly above average arm

an mlb above average arm sounds pretty good for a 13 yr old



_

Bee,
Very funny. Of course I didn't say ML average or use the word tool to imply using ML average as the standard. Since we can only use our pitchers 5 innings in a game and 8 innings per week, he'd probably be playing rf even with a ML average arm most of the time.

Will,
Why do you think the kids I'm saying are perennial all-stars are bigger than the other kids. Some are, one is the smallest kid on the team. One just grew over the off-season. They are all the same or better relative to the league than they were last year, especially defensively. The reality is that this league is a mix of kids who come from all around the area to find the best regular season competition and kids who've just been with the league for a long time. There's a big ability gap and it'll get bigger when the kids come back from freshman ball just so they can qualify for the 14yo all-star team.

I've got my three pitchers who mostly play third base and two also play some shortstop. They've all got cannons. I've also got my regular shortstop who doesn't have quite as good of an arm but just has more range than the pitchers and turns the DP better. I've got a little second baseman with great range and very quick hands. I've also got a backup 2nd baseman who is also little and quick who is a bit inconsistent in the outfield. I've got a catcher with a good arm who is pretty slow. I've got two left handed first baseman. The bigger one is faster, has a strong arm and makes a pretty good center fielder. The smaller one has a better glove at first. I've got two outfielders with blazing speed, one who gets a good jump and makes catches and the other who doesn't. Neither has a good arm or a whole lot of baseball sense. We get about as many balls hit to right as to left but the balls hit to left tend to be deeper and the fielders have to move more to run them down. Now I've got a player with a decent arm who anticipates reasonably well and can catch the ball but is as slow as molasses on a subzero day. He'll hustle and back up the throw to first which the others won't always do. Where would you put him? I've got him in right field where he helps the team and he's getting plenty of playing time there, more than some of the infielders and other outfielders.

My regular second baseman has played center field when the regular centerfielder is missing or sitting for discipline reasons which is pretty often. The two pitchers with decent range have also played some outfield with the faster one playing center and the slower of the two, my son, has been in right and left.

CADad......tell me (again), without describing each player and each game you play, why you don't teach the kid to pitch????.....he does have an average to above average arm......and aren't some of your other pitchers pitching on 'travel (tournament) teams'?

When these kids get to HS you'll be saying that their teams don't have enough pitching.

Grateful,
Because he is the number 6 or 7 pitcher and I don't have time to go down that far to work with pitchers. I also believe the top 3 pitchers deserve the available innings and practice time based on their potential and current ability. I did let him eat a couple innings this weekend and he did OK. I let a couple other pitchers throw and they threw quite well. I didn't get a chance to throw my strong armed catcher over the weekend, but he's probably number 6 on the depth chart. The kid may get an inning or two this weekend because we are playing 3 games in 4 days but after that the better pitchers will get the innings and the practice time.

His chances of pitching in HS are somewhere between slim and none. I can think of a dozen kids who would be ahead of him next year for freshman ball. His arm is average to above average for a 13yo rec player but certainly below average for a pitcher. He is small, unathletic and doesn't project to grow much. He does have a good work ethic and understanding of the game.

My first 3 pitchers are on a tournament team and I make sure the tournament team schedule doesn't impact our regular season schedule. We only play holiday weekend tournaments during the regular season.

CaDad, it was kinda tounge in cheek
I do respect and applaud the hard work you're putting in, but it just sounded a lot like the kitchen table planning sessions I've heard over the years (and am still listening to locally) -

calculating at bats, reps on defense, who gets the PT/development, who doesn't, and plotting a course for the future of the local program

if you're 20% accurate you've done well - & time will prove - but in retrospect you'll long for another chance with with a few of those that ya shorted

good luck

Bee,
I realized it was tongue in cheek. No hay problema.

The real problem is that someone is always going to be shorted. There's a finite number of innings, a finite number of catchers, a small amount of practice time and facilities, etc. to go around. We have to make our best guess as to who deserves the time, and often we are going to make the wrong guess no matter how hard we try. We may give those few extra innings and that little bit more attention at practice to a kid who discovers girls and gives up baseball in six months. You just never know. The one thing I do know is that if you try to give equal time to everyone you are simply going to short everyone equally. A kid like the one I've been describing makes the process a bit more difficult because he does work harder and smarter than most others, but lacks talent. My adjustment has been to give him a bit more playing time than some other players, albeit in the position I feel helps the team the most. I've also given him a couple innings on the mound when we were completely out of arms and probably will again.

I'm not plotting a course for the local program as one of the pitchers is moving out of state after the season and the other will be attending one of our rival schools. Many of our HS league's notable players seem to come out of this league and out of Agoura's Pony program. I was looking at the league's all-star rosters from a few years ago and it reads like a who's who amongst the Marmonte league's top players.

And for those of you who haven't heard it before, I believe the Marmonte league is one of the strongest HS leagues in the nation and probably has more strong teams than possibly any other league in the nation. (That ought to stir a bit of controversy.)