It hurts so good to throw hard

If I go out in the front yard with CaDad and we lob the ball back-and-forth and talk about the weather, we are not likely to get injured.

The harder we throw, the more likely there is tissue damage or injury, it's a duh, but so many "professional" instructors don't believe that velocity and injury are correlated.

It's been said before, 90 mph pitching, is the result of a chain or sequencing from the bottom-up with the result of the hand moving at 90 mph. The arm is made of the same stuff as other people's arms and the weak link will get stressed and those links are usually the elbow or shoulder.

There have been, however, documented instances of the arm bone breaking or hand injury (Zamaya). It is the same thing, the body parts are moving at a high velocity and something is giving.

The higher velocities are, with actually many exceptions, usually the larger guys with more muscle mass to help surround and to some degree stabilize and protect the elbow and shoulder capsules. That may be one reason the higher velocity guys also last longer -- they have more muscle mass. They are also lasting longer because they throw hard.

This will be an interesting thread to follow.

correlation isn't causation. Could be the higher velocity pitchers threw more innings.

LHPMom,
True. But that's a bit of a stretch. It has also been shown that higher pitch velocities result in higher loads and higher stresses which would tend to corroborate the paper's conclusion.

Given the choice of velocities correlated and no data on innings I'll go with velocity for now.

I think it pretty much common sense for the most part that higher velocities equate to more injuries. I certainly know that holds true in my profession where more expensive racecars/sprortscars are both faster but also get damaged more frequently than less expensive ones and as such require more work. However, they do last longer (the faster expensive ones)

quote:

Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
correlation isn't causation. Could be the higher velocity pitchers threw more innings.

Maybe, but not in the case of the pitchers from the "Strausburg all too familiar story" article I posted yesterday. This is an oversimplification but the forces on the arm are a square function of velocity so the arm loads go up exponentially as you go up in velocity so it makes sense that high velocity pitchers have more problems.

My point is just that correlation is very easy to prove, and causation isn't. If you took a survey of all kids playing travel baseball and found that 75% of them were born in the summer, it doesn't mean that having a summer birthday makes you a better baseball player.

The danger here is the inverse -- thinking that since your kid isn't a hard thrower, he's not likely to get injured.

The cigarette makers arguement. All regression is correlation & not causation. You have to use common sense to extend to velocity being the problem.

By the way, if cadad &I throw slow in the front yard, we will both be using Marshall mechanics, & that's why we won't be hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
By the way, if cadad &I throw slow in the front yard, we will both be using Marshall mechanics, & that's why we won't be hurt.

You guys did not see me with the camera but that's CADad down there catching.

LHP,
You bring up a valid point, no one should ever assume that because your pitcher doesn't throw that hard he will not bet hurt. I am not talking about the occassional setbacks, but major ones.

There are many reasons why pitchers get hurt, not always because they throw harder, but interestingly enough, in pro ball, the much harder throwing pitchers hit the DL more often than the softer tossers. Now there are many reasons for this, most of the higher velo guys are the better pitchers, they are starters that means more time on the mound. One of sons best friend is a very hard throwing lefty, reliever, never an issue. He's logged in 53.2 innings this year, my son, RHP starter throwing just as hard has put in 133. That's not counting spring training. His elbow aches.
CADad is correct as well as others, the harder you throw the more stress placed on you, but the more you throw, even greater the stress.

The higher the velocity the higher the investment, so therefore those guys get the luxury of getting more chances with better medical care, better rehab, after injury, so I do beleve that is why many of them are in the game so long. You'd be surprised, the milb guys who are later picks that have injuries, are fixed and then released, no one has time for them to sit around for a year, or more.

As far as Strasburg, I asked a question the other day no one answered, what transpired between when he pitched in college to now that could have caused his elbow issues. I say more time on the mound, which means more stress on the elbow.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You'd be surprised, the milb guys who are later picks that have injuries, are fixed and then released, no one has time for them to sit around for a year, or more.

As far as Strasburg, I asked a question the other day no one answered, what transpired between when he pitched in college to now that could have caused his elbow issues. I say more time on the mound, which means more stress on the elbow.

JMO.

Interesting bit-

Last weekend we were playing another team and I was up against the fence with the camera and a father off the opposing team set up right next to me with his camera and we got to talking about a multitude of baseball things. One thing he said that stuck out to me was this- he said that his older son got drafted a couple years ago out of high school by the Royals organization as a pitcher and possible two way player swinging a good bat. His rookie year down in the Arizona league he injured his elbow and had reconstructive TJ surgery. He was then released by the Royals and told to enter the free agent MLB tryouts after his rehab. In high school he was a low to mid 90's guy and thus why he was drafted. He now is working hard for tryouts to make it back in the MiLB system but this time as a position player with his good bat.

BOF,
You know darn well I don't want my picture on here.

>>As far as Strasburg, I asked a question the other day no one answered, what transpired between when he pitched in college to now that could have caused his elbow issues. I say more time on the mound, which means more stress on the elbow.<<

The Nationals are saying he had both shoulder stiffness and forearm pain while pitching in college -- and pitched through it. There has been much discussion about his set-backs in the Post. One point made is that he has been throwing his change up more now than he did in college, and that was the pitch that hurt him Saturday night, and something about the change up grip putting pressure on the tendon ...

My prediction is that regardless of the outcome there will be people who will insist that it proves whatever position they were taking was right.

quote:

Posted August 26, 2010 01:50 PM Hide Post
MyMy prediction is that regardless of the outcome there will be people who will insist that it proves whatever position they were taking was right.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
My prediction is that regardless of the outcome there will be people who will insist that it proves whatever position they were taking was right.

I think you got that right.

GBM,
In the 4 years that son has been in milb, most players that had elbow or shoulder issues have been released, the only ones remaining are those that show high potential for MLB and larger investments. One in particular, Jaime Garcia.

As far as Strasburg, he HAD to have had a contrast MRI to sign for that much money, obviously they found nothing seriously wrong, so what's different? Or it just may be that with that type of investment, they are playing it safe.

Shut down for the rest of the season. Long-term, it will be interesting to see whether this kid-gloves treatment of Strasburg will save him from serious injury.

Do hard throwers also throw off speed pitches harder? Is velocity as it pertains to the FB causing the injuries, or is the harder snap and or "velo" on their breaking ball/slider doing the damage?

As LHP mom says, you can correlate anything so I'm skeptical. Through the past two decades BB has moved towards more rest between starts with 5 man rotations, less innings per game/season and so forth. Today's baseball players throw far less than in other era's. Despite all the measures to "protect" pitching arms, injuries and surgeries have risen dramatically.

This "protectionism" seems counter-intuative. More specialized preparation conditioning for muscles, bones, and ligaments, would seem to me to make sense. Where else in Sports does one prescribe training less, at other than game-like conditions, with the objective to prevent injuries? How does one perform at a high level, over a long period of time without adequately preparing and performing to do so? At point, as a Team owner or GM, I think I would ponder that question.

Sorry, I ramble.

Could it be that kids throw too much in competitive situations? Fall ball. School ball. Travel ball. Camps. Showcase events.

Could it be that kids put too much on their arms at a young age and the damage is done way before it actually shows up later in their career?

In the quest to keep up with the other kids and make every event , play on every team , do everything everyone else is doing in fear of falling behind they tax their arm at a young age.

I don't know I really don't. I do know that when I played back in the 70's a lot of kids arms hurt. A lot of kids would have had procedures performed if they were available. A lot of kids stopped playing because their arms hurt. A lot of kids played through the pain and simply dealt with it the best they could. A lot of kids picked up a baseball on the first day of tryouts and stopped throwing the last day of the season. Moved on to football and then basketball or wrestling.

It could be that kids simply throw too much in game situations and dont throw enough to condition the arm to prepare for game situations. And then they dont give their arm the proper amount of recovery time in and out of season because the season never seems to end anymore.

Improper mechanics. Over use. Physical make up that makes a kid prone to injury. I am sure there are several factors.

According to Dr. James Andrews, the answer to all of your questions is a resounding Yes. In fact I think he would agree with everything in your post.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Could it be that kids throw too much in competitive situations? Fall ball. School ball. Travel ball. Camps. Showcase events.

Could it be that kids put too much on their arms at a young age and the damage is done way before it actually shows up later in their career?

In the quest to keep up with the other kids and make every event , play on every team , do everything everyone else is doing in fear of falling behind they tax their arm at a young age.

I don't know I really don't. I do know that when I played back in the 70's a lot of kids arms hurt. A lot of kids would have had procedures performed if they were available. A lot of kids stopped playing because their arms hurt. A lot of kids played through the pain and simply dealt with it the best they could. A lot of kids picked up a baseball on the first day of tryouts and stopped throwing the last day of the season. Moved on to football and then basketball or wrestling.

It could be that kids simply throw too much in game situations and dont throw enough to condition the arm to prepare for game situations. And then they dont give their arm the proper amount of recovery time in and out of season because the season never seems to end anymore.

Improper mechanics. Over use. Physical make up that makes a kid prone to injury. I am sure there are several factors.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Do hard throwers also throw off speed pitches harder? Is velocity as it pertains to the FB causing the injuries, or is the harder snap and or "velo" on their breaking ball/slider doing the damage?

As LHP mom says, you can correlate anything so I'm skeptical. Through the past two decades BB has moved towards more rest between starts with 5 man rotations, less innings per game/season and so forth. Today's baseball players throw far less than in other era's. Despite all the measures to "protect" pitching arms, injuries and surgeries have risen dramatically.

This "protectionism" seems counter-intuative. More specialized preparation conditioning for muscles, bones, and ligaments, would seem to me to make sense. Where else in Sports does one prescribe training less, at other than game-like conditions, with the objective to prevent injuries? How does one perform at a high level, over a long period of time without adequately preparing and performing to do so? At point, as a Team owner or GM, I think I would ponder that question.

Sorry, I ramble.

I am of the firm belief that kids today do not condition themselves properly to pitch. Kids seem to throw less and pitch more. I think kids should throw more and pitch less. I read a study once where young kids who start throwing, and then continue to throw often develop better structure in the developing arm that actually helps protect the arm and also helps them throw harder. Now whether that is toatally correct or not, who really knows, but it is interesting that kids who usually throw a lot (not pitch but just throw for conditioning) have less pain.

As for hard throwers also throwing harder offspeed stuff. Yea I believe that is so. But again, what is really the culprit. My son is still young and hasn't finished his maturing into the higher velocities yet but even still, he throws a lot and pitches a little. The only real pitching related injury he has suffered through to this point is pulling his pelvis out of place and straining his #5 lumbar twice. Not saying that he will avoid injurty as he gets older- who is to know?

I did watch some fast pitchers on the high school team throw today and noticed the very different approaches that each had to warming up to throw. The mechanics of a fast pitcher happen so extremely precise that if the body and arm isn't healthy and conditioned I could definately see where it would be easy to accidently get injured. Oft cases though is just overuse on an improperly conditioned arm.

This study is ridiculous. You can't draw any conclusions from it.

How fast were they throwing relative to their weight/height? Were they used more than other pitchers? How many fastballs were thrown relative to other pitches? On and on.

Also, the average of the fastest speed of the uninjured group of pro pitchers was only 85 mph. The average FB speed in MLB is 91 mph. How often were these guys pitching?

SOS,
I haven't, but did you pay the $32 to read the article? Or are you just reacting to the abstract?

As one should be able to tell from my original post I didn't read any more than the abstract myself.

It seems to be a well put together study with the limitations that any study of this kind faces from what I can tell. Given that the study was really just a check of what common sense would dictate I find it amusing that anyone would have any real problems with the study.

I mean how difficult is it to understand that the stresses on the arm get higher when pitchers throw faster? That's been verified by quite a few independent studies. From there it isn't much of a jump to assume that throwing harder results in a higher probability of injury. This study simply checks that assumption.