It's more than talent

Nice post.

 

One of my sons teammates was a decent catcher, but knew he had at least two kids ahead of him, with a younger kid that was going to be "the guy" sooner than later. He therefore didn't even want to go out for the spring team for fear of either being cut, or riding the pine.

I encouraged him to put his hat in the ring, because I saw his talent and knew his leadership & positive attitude was a big plus, especially for a catcher.

I told him, you never know what might happen during a season.

Unfortunately his father was one of these guys who was resentful that his kid was not the "coaches pet" during fall ball. In his mind, his kid was not groomed like the others, so he was upset.  His attitude caused him to recommend to his kid to "screw them". His son was not that type of kid, but his dad didn't help to convince him to go out, so he didn't.

 

Sure enough within weeks the #1 guy went down with an injury, and the #2 guy (who had a negative attitude toward school) got suspended for cheating. The young stud who did go out and made the V was thrust into the role. Even though he is destine for bigger things, he was faltering because of the inexperience.

 

The kid came up to me mid season and said, "you were right, I should have gone out, and I would be starting today."

I really felt bad for him, but with such a negative father, he adversely affected his son because of his own pride. Of course every time something like that happens it gives another kid a shot.

 

So yes, it is more than just talent alone.

As the dad of another 2016 frosh called up to varsity early, I'm with you. Kudos to your coach for putting the best 9 on the field -- and recognizing that the best 9 is determined by performance -- driven by hard work, attitude and results -- not raw talent.

while I agree with your statements concerning HS ball, eventually ability and talent win out.

My advice for the kids I saw off to college ball was to never stop working hard and never quit. No matter if you are the "worst" player on the team, you will get better by being around better players. You never know who, in front of you, will get hurt, not make grades, transfer, etc... Simply be the best teammate you can be, be coachable and your time will come.

2016Dad,

 

I think most people will understand where you are coming from and others won't get it.  I'm on my third son playing high school baseball.  It does amaze me that some people only see what they want to see.  I've pretty much heard it all....from high school baseball players dealing drugs to quitting because the coach doesn't put me at my best position.  My reaction to these situations is usually the same.....Darwin's theory (of natural selection) is working 24 x7 x 365 in high school baseball.

 

Every year it is something new and something different.  But the fact remains that some kids still think they are more important than the team or the game.  They're not, and they'll figure it out when they are 25 that they missed a golden opportunity earlier in life.  It isn't about talent, it is about team.  If your son figures it out at 9th grade, a tip of the cap to him!

So very true.

 

All the way up the baseball ladder to the very top, the process of "self selection" takes place in a thousand different ways; whether continuing the rise or falling by the wayside.

Wow. Best post I've seen in a while. I may literally print this off and put it in the dugout for kids to see.

 

So many just don't get it.

I wish all coaches would instill this kind of discipline on kids.  This year on my sons team it has been a complete disaster with grades, suspensions, not showing up, late to school on game days.  Problem is that our coach lets them get away with some of the stuff.  We had a player that missed practice Friday, was MIA for Saturday's game (coaches had no idea where he was) and then he shows up yesterday and starts.

 

…It amazes me that a good number of kids have killed their chances of moving up next year and it had little to do with how well they play.

 

What do you consider a “good number of kids” who killed their chances of moving up?

2,538.

Subtract 2,533.

2,538.

 

If you were trying to be funny, it was a miserable failure. I was trying to find out what percentage of players he thought were the kind of players he described. I know generally the number on our team is pretty darn low. In fact, I can’t remember more than a couple in more than 10 years who had the skills but didn’t make the team because of anything other than grades.

 

People may think it’s a fairly common thing, and it may be in places rich in talent. But in most public programs, its would be a pretty unusual coach who’d not put a kid on the roster who’s only problems came from weak discipline.

If JustBaseball was trying to be funny, it was at least a partial success because a) it caused the OP to give a light hearted response, and b) it made me chuckle.

 

I don't see the point of asking for statistical precision in an anecdote from a fairly new poster who said up front he was just making observations based on watching the dynamics of one freshman team for one season, which he didn't claim to be representative of anything larger.  What did he consider to be a "good number"?  Obviously, enough to make him think about the topic?

 

It was a good post with a good point.  And I hope 2016Dad continues to share his insights.

It made me laugh, so I guess I have a miserable sense of humor...  But in my area, I bet there are one or two kids on most teams every year who don't make it for reasons other than talent.  They aren't always cut by the coach.  Some don't make grades, some transfer to other schools, some drop out, etc.

It made me laugh, so I guess I have a miserable sense of humor...  But in my area, I bet there are one or two kids on most teams every year who don't make it for reasons other than talent.  They aren't always cut by the coach.  Some don't make grades, some transfer to other schools, some drop out, etc.

 

Humor’s a strange thing. Often the things we find most humorous are the things we’re afraid to answer honestly.

 

Other than grades, my guess is if you made a real study of it, you’d find out that your PERCEPTION isn’t what is really taking place. With so many children in this country failing to even graduate from HS, it’s a pretty good bet failing grades are gonna keep at least some percentage of athletes from being able to participate.

 

But those other things mentioned like missing or being late to practice, poor attitude when forced to ride the pine, chewing tobacco at a game, sulking when striking out, not hustling while shagging during BP, or not hustling out to their position in the field, are different things entirely, and very seldom turn into something chronic enough that a coach refuses to accept a player who is otherwise talented.

 

The reason is, if a coach can’t instill what little disciple it takes to correct those things, he certainly isn’t much of a coach, leader, or teacher, so what would it be saying about them? When has anyone not seen a HS aged kid do any of those things, other than the chewing tobacco thing, which is really a stretch. FI, what kind of a coach actually expects his players to go full tilt in the field during BP? Look what that got Mariano Rivera. And who would want a player who was happy about striking out? Its all about the players learning appropriate responses to situations, not keeping them off the team because they act their age.

 

Again, I can see how it might be the case where a school like Mater Dei of Santa Ana who has great student athletes clamoring and indeed paying large $$$$ to participate has plenty of talent just waiting in the wings for an opportunity, but what about the HS program that only gets 14 kids to even try out for the V? Do you really believe a coach in that position isn’t gonna do whatever he can to keep just about any kid? I know there are a lot of really top notch public programs out there, but I daresay there isn’t a very high percentage of them who can afford to dump a player who has playing skills.

Stats, 

So you're saying your "guess" (your word, not mine) about what a "real study" might reveal is more reliable than 2016Dad's perception of a situation he saw and you didn't.  That's a very scientific and analytical approach.

 

With the exception of the chewing tobacco, I have seen players lose playing time for all the situations described in the OP.  Yes, many high school coaches do want players shagging flies to use the opportunity to practice their outfield skills and go all out to make catches--and they'll bench someone who won't do it.  Yes, many high school coaches do consider sulking after striking out to be an expression of immaturity and selfishness, rather than competitiveness--and they'll bench a player who can't handle adversity with poise.  Yes, many coaches actually do time players running on and off the field--and they'll bench guys who won't hustle.  Benching, when accompanied by an explanation and a second chance, is how many coaches instill discipline.  The OP simply made the point that when some of starting players earned bench time in these ways, they created opportunities that his son took advantage of.  

 

The OP lives in Southern California.  It doesn't require a huge stretch of the imagination to believe there might be good players on the JV bench who are ready to perform when a starter screws up and earns a chance to view the game from the dugout.  

 

What is your point in challenging everything about his post?

So you're saying your "guess" (your word, not mine) about what a "real study" might reveal is more reliable than 2016Dad's perception of a situation he saw and you didn't.  That's a very scientific and analytical approach.

 

That’s exactly what I’m saying, and I’m basing in on my 15+years of being very involved in HSB, talking honestly with many HS coaches, and looking at it realistically, not through the eyes of someone who hasn’t had that experience.

 

With the exception of the chewing tobacco, I have seen players lose playing time for all the situations described in the OP.  Yes, many high school coaches do want players shagging flies to use the opportunity to practice their outfield skills and go all out to make catches--and they'll bench someone who won't do it.  Yes, many high school coaches do consider sulking after striking out to be an expression of immaturity and selfishness, rather than competitiveness--and they'll bench a player who can't handle adversity with poise.  Yes, many coaches actually do time players running on and off the field--and they'll bench guys who won't hustle.  Benching, when accompanied by an explanation and a second chance, is how many coaches instill discipline.  The OP simply made the point that when some of starting players earned bench time in these ways, they created opportunities that his son took advantage of.  

 

There’s a far cry between losing PT for something, and being kicked off the team or not even making the team for those transgressions. If every HS coach in every sport cut every player who acted age appropriate every time they did it, there wouldn’t be any HS athletics.

 

The OP said he was AMAZED that a good number of kids KILLED their chances of moving up the next year. That’s not losing PT because of some discipline problem. Its something very much more serious, and I’m saying it isn’t a common thing at all. Are you saying it is? If so, you’re experience is far different than mine.

 

The OP lives in Southern California.  It doesn't require a huge stretch of the imagination to believe there might be good players on the JV bench who are ready to perform when a starter screws up and earns a chance to view the game from the dugout.

 

Why is it that you think that’s something especially true in SoCal? I live in NorCal and that’s the way it is here too. I daresay it’s the same in any program where there’s even 1 player on the bench.

 

What is your point in challenging everything about his post?

 

I’m only trying to get him to understand that hyperbole isn’t the same thing as fact, and when you begin to believe hyperbole, you’ve allowed the truth to be clouded.

Stats, give it a rest sheesh.  Anytime somebody talks about what they see, perceive, or guess to what happens in a situation you jump all over them trying to get it down to numbers or prove that they might be wrong.  Everybody knows you love numbers, but not everybody wants to break down their world based on data.

Agree. Stats, how good are you at analyzing the SUBjective parts of the game? I know you have many years of experience, and that you love numbers, but this thread doesn't really make it sound like you appreciate the intangibles -- positive and negative. The OP made a good, philosphical point. Why debate it? Everyone knows talent will, in the end, make a BIG difference ... but especialy in HS baseball, attitude and character matter as much or more. At least that's what we all TRY to tell our boys. Kudos to the OP.

Stats,

 

You have chosen an apt screen name because no one matches your ability to strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.  

 

Obviously the OP doesn't know for sure these players killed their chances of moving up next year because next year hasn't happened yet.  Maybe they only damaged their chances.  So what?  Does that mean he needs you to teach him a lesson about hyperbole, lest he go through life with a "clouded" view of truth?  C'mon!

 

His point was that some kids whose playing ability earned them starting roles lost playing time because of attitude/effort/conduct/academic issues, damaged their standing with the program, and gave opportunities to second stringers, at least one of whom took advantage of the opportunity.  

 

And he didn't say anything about anybody getting thrown off the team (though the tobacco incident would do it at our school with no discretion allowed to the coaches).  

 

How is this even controversial?  Why did you need to jump into hostile witness interrogation mode to debunk a personal observation of a situation of which you are wholly ignorant?

 

Why don't you tell us the basis of your statistical understanding of the distribution of talent that qualifies you to wax so skeptical of the possibility that a school located in the middle of the deepest concentration of talent in America might have some competent second stringers?   

Sorry, Swampboy -- the "deepest concentration of talent in America" would have to be Texas .

 

Just can't let that one go  

Let me guess.  The San Jacinto Day party at your house hasn't quite wound down yet?

2016 - great post.  Tremendously insightful for a "freshman" dad

 

JB - Yes, that was funny.

 

Swamp (and James & JP) - THANK YOU!!!    Sorry Stats, I luv ya and you have a lot to contribute here but there are WAY too many times when you kill an interesting thread or dilute an important message to someone seeking advice by trying to divert everything into some sort of numerical analysis.  And, please, don't ask what percentage of your posts I count as fitting into this category. 

 

Originally Posted by JP...

"deepest concentration of talent in America would have to be Texas"

I don't know, JP, I've seen a few Texans try to concentrate deeply and it didn't turn out well.

 

 

Yes, sir, the actuaries (bean counters) are running amok on this thread.  It's getting downright hazardous because everytime I read the gnat I whack my forehead onto my computer desk after dozing off resulting in serious head trauma.  Or at least mental confusion from his posts, I don't know.  A little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

+1,000 TO ALL THE ABOVE EXCEPT STATS...

I kicked off my best player one year because I got tired of dealing with his attitude and all kinds of issues.  I gave him several chances to fix, benched him, ran him, suspended him but nothing worked so I got rid of him.  Did I give him chances because of his talent?  You better believe it but at some point I had to make a decision and I did.  Did it hurt us at the moment?  Very much so but in the long run it was a huge boon because the other guys saw I had a limit in what I would put up with and they knew not to cross it or get near it.  So losing that one kid that I couldn't reach helped me out for the next few years based on the attitude adjustment by the rest of the team.

 

This is what the OP is talking about.  The more talent you have the more chances you get but at some point a coach has to pull the trigger and the others need to learn from it.

And Cinco de Mayo is just around the corner. Party on!

You know when I first starting coaching in hs I was so focused on the talent side of things when evaluating players. When I went to the see the Middle School play I wanted to see the kids I thought were talented enough or would be talented enough to one day help us. When I had my camps I was always looking for it. Focusing on it. Wanting to see it.

 

The longer I coached at the hs level the more and more I grew to realize that the intangibles of a player I wanted to coach were far and away more important to not only me but the success of our program. Yes God given talent is always something you want to see in a player. And there has to be a certain amount of talent in the player. Potential if you will.

 

But I put my focus on demanding certain things of players and letting that process work itself out. The ones left standing were my players. Everyone else simply were not. Your going to work at the level I require. Your going to bust it at the level I require. Your going to do your school work at the level I require. Your going to conduct yourself on and off the field at the level I require. Your going to be a great team mate and represent this program in the manner I require. Now if you can do that you will be just fine. And your probably going to end up being a good hs player. If you have some avg talent your going to be a really good player. If you have above avg talent your going to be a game changer player. And if you have superior talent your going to realize it.

 

Along the way some decided they simply couldn't live up to what I required. So it really didn't matter what their talent level was. It never came into the equation. I put my focus on those that wanted to be special. Were willing to pay the price to be special. Were willing and wanted to be a part of something bigger than themselves.

 

I started to see players who blended in with everyone else at 13 14 15 become HS studs at 17 and 18. Not only on the field but off of it. Players who never won anything their whole life in the game earning All Conf , All American and getting schollys to go to college and play the game. They simply bought in to the process. They knew nothing was going to be given to them and they were going to have to work for whatever they were going to get. And they wanted to be a part of something special.

 

If your not willing to be part of the process your not in the process. That has nothing to do with talent. Talent will get you noticed by me. It won't get you on my team by itself. And it certainly will not keep you on my team by itself. The fact is there were many years when the incoming freshman class did not include the most talented freshman on our teams. They simply didn't want any part of the process. And that's ok. Its not for everyone. And thats what makes it special.

Gee guys, thanx a lot for snapping me back to the reality of pie in the sky thinking and rose colored glasses perception. I’d forgotten for a moment that baseball dogma is all true, anyone challenging it is a fool, and anything written that’s longer than 140 characters is looked on as being just as long as War and Peace.

Stats, you obviously have knowledge and experience to contribute here, the problem is that you too often resort to personal attacks and cynicism against other participants when attempting to make your point. Do you find it necessary to be uncivil?

Even after the overwhelming push-back you received here, your latest response suggests that you just don't get it.

I frequent this forum because it is a wonderful resource for those of us seeking information and guidance to help us navigate through a very trying process. This process is stressful enough. Nobody needs the added annoyance of engaging angry keyboard warriors who arbitrarily dispute every comment with condescendingly critical responses. If your goal is to drive away new participants, you're probably succeeding.

 

Ok, off topic here, but those double fortunate folks who are not only Texans but also Aggies get to double celebrate with Muster on April 21.

 

My Dad would could the above "loaded statements" (i.e., value- and judgment-laden statements that presume a lot). And even if you strongly dislike cynicism and condescension, asking clearly unhelpful sarcastic/rhetorical questions to end your response definitely falls into the "two wrongs don't make a right" category of dialogue.

I think there are a few great posts on this thread...as well as a few that are regrettable. One standout on the positive side of the ledger (four posts up from this one) comes from a contributor who has posted relatively little here. I hope he/she will continue to contribute.

 

Meanwhile, I'll share the observation that a common malady among those players who ultimately fail is that they develop the belief that it's more about them as individuals than it is about their team or the game, itself. I'd never really considered it until reading this thread, but I've come to realize that the same malady can affect message board contributors, as well.

 

P.S. Add me to the list of those who thought that "2,538" was pretty darned funny.

Returning to the subject....

 

1) Thanks again to Coach May for his wisdom, I'll be sharing that with my son...

 

2) My son (2017) and I went to his future HS team's frosh game yesterday and walked away stunned at what we saw.  After reading this thread I feel better knowing that the Freshman with talent and those that are "with the program" are likely the ones playing JV (there are 8 of them) and that my son already realizes that he is doing the right things to realize his goals. 

 

As we talked on the ride home he obviously stated "now I know I gotta keep working hard to make JV as a freshman".  

 

I've got a follow up to this but will post it separately.

My 2017 is in the same boat.  There's 3 or 4 freshmen playing JV here.

I did the same thing a year ago. I figured the 14U team he was on could easily beat the frosh team at his school. I was gunning for JV but it was up to my son to make it happen. Had him  read the Make the Team article on this site. Did it sink in? Took a year, too late for try-outs this spring but he's "getting with the program" now. His coaches are great and he sees the rewards of hard work. We have one Fr on V, 3 Fr started on JV however 2 returned to Fr after a couple JV games. 2 Fr who started Fr recently got some JV game time. The 1 kid who made JV and stayed there had the right attitude from the start (and he was a much needed catcher) Preparation met Opportunity.

I love this site!!! ….  ;-)

 

What was the original thread topic??!