It's That Time of The Year

fastball, why didn't you say something last year during the state weekend when matt otteman from lockport thru a complete game, rain delayed quarter final to beat schaumburg and then came back the next day in long relief to cap off a championship game. i dont agree with what happened the last two days but why not throw everything out there when you bring up one specific issue

If I'd been aware of it I would have mentioned it. After Lockport beat us in the semis, we went home.

They do have rules at the state finals, but they have no teeth at all.

I'm not picking on one school or coach, just using it as an example of what is going on.

in all fairness, what would people have to say about restrictions on games pitched in a week and or pitch counts in a game? Flesig from the andrews group has the stats to back it up, but what would the 'competitive' people have to say about being told how to run their team at the high school or travel ball level

Of course they wouldn't like it....at least a lot of them. I guess it all comes down to what you see as the purpose of it all......

On the other hand, more kids would get a chance to develope. Removing the temptation for a coach to do these things may be a good idea.

Fball, didn't wright from conant pitch a complete game 9 innings against your team last week? How many innings has the kid from eg gone in the last week? Game last Monday, finish one or 2 later in the week and then 8 innings against Palatine in the msl title game. He clsed last night and will probably go sat. I don't agree with it but it does hapen all over.

quote:

Originally posted by FastballDad:



I've been against rules that tell coaches how to handle their pitchers in terms of use, presuming that coaches are professional and in respect to that it should go without saying that a coach will be professional in their handling of the players.

Perhaps with most coaches that is true, but maybe there should be a rule. IMO, there is no way a kid should be throwing 11 innings in two days under any circumstances. I've seen too much of this .......some kind of rule needs to be put in place because all coaches cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

FBD, Of course you're right in your argument. IMO, we're giving most coaches more credit for putting their priorities in order. First and foremost is the health, both short-term and long-term of his players. Nothing else should even come close. I've spent this spring witnessing excessive pitch counts all over the place, relief pitchers being called in with no warm-up time except the pitches they throw when they get to the mound, not the proper number of days off between starts and more. Gentlemen, the lawsuits have started around the country. In Collegiate Baseball they have written about HS players and their parents successfully suing coaches and schools for damages resulting from overuse and improper use of their sons. The evidence is clearly out there, whether it comes from Dr. Andrews in Birmingham, Dr. Kremchek in Cincinnati, or Dr. Jobe in LA. Athletic directors, coaches and school administrations will be forced to implement pitching guidelines as they are hit with lawsuits when a kid blows out his elbow or tears up his shoulder. It is really a shame because a little commons sense is all it takes to avoid all of this.

We have a coach in our area that has ruined kids arms for years!!! Bold statement, you bet!!!!

Our LT team through the years has had at most, three very good pitchers, plus two to three more that our coach will use to support the three. If we have a big lead, he will pull out the starter and give his alternate guys time. Fortunately enough our starters haven't had to to see to many high pitch counts.

The problem lies in the fact that these other coaches don't have two to three quality pitchers because they don't develop the potential talent they have, AND many of those potential pitchers don't spend the appropriate time in the off-season working at strength and conditioning, not to mention the fact that those kids need additional instruction for developing their mechanics.

'Itsrosy' refers to articles in the various collegiate publications that have addressed these issues, and I have read them as well. It all has to be the responsibility of both parents and coaches. Unfortunately, many coaches won't put up with any kind of parent intervention. They have that "he is mine when he is on the field" mentality.

I believe that rules need to be put in place that will protect the pitcher from harm. This would allow the player to stay healthier for college or pro ball, and force the high school coaches in developing a pitching staff that would consist of at least two, maybe three quality pitchers. I then think you would also benefit from an equal level of play, across all levels/areas of Illinois high school baseball......more parody. I also think that it would stimulate more interest in baseball from those schools who have weak programs if they knew that their school stood a chance and were more competitive. JMHO

I wish you were all wrong. I know you're not. This past week, I took one kid out when he reached 92 and yet another out when he threw 94. Not one pitcher on my team has gone over 100 this season. Yes, it probably cost us a win or two. During the regionals they know that their count can be, with our trainers present, 110. That is it. They also know that if we are throwing "long innings," forget the 110. As you all know, the kids have been asking to "extend their pitch counts." I will tell you it is hard and that little devil sits on your shoulder the whole time. If you are going to error, you have to error on the side of the health of that kid. JMHO! BTW, we have 4 pitchers with 33 or more innings pitched.

Boomer,

Great post. You're absolutely right. I really hadn't considered that the failure of a coach to begin to develop pitchers at a younger age can put him in a postion at the varsity level where he feels he has no choice but to ride these couple of pitchers like pack animals. There's plenty of blame to spread around.

Before we condemn coaches, I think we need to know that every situation can be different. I'm sure you all have your own philosophies on how many pitches a kid should throw based on books, gurus, scientific data, etc, but the bottom line is that it is entirely up to the kid and the coach how many innings/pitches he should or shouldn't throw.

Our staff has one pitcher who has thrown 55 innings and four others who have thrown between 20 and 45 innings. However, we have only had four pitchers this year climb above 100 pitches, with 110 being the max for the season.

There are so many factors that go into these decisions. Obviously pitchers' health is the most important concern but I think we are too critical with such little information.

When I was in high school (93-96) we had pitchers who threw about 75-80 innings in a season. None of these pitchers ever complained of sore arms or got hurt. Why is it today that we limit kids to 40 innings that they get hurt????? Maybe we are too soft on them??? How many of those pitchers who throw so few innings actually throw in between their starts or play long toss or (here is a new form of technology) ice?

With regards to the Streamwood pitcher, you can be critical but do you know his pitch counts? Maybe he threw 25 pitches on day 1 (which would have been a light bullpen for us) and 90 pitches yesterday. If so that wouldn't be all that terrible. While I don't know the situation, I give the benefit of the doubt to the coach with such little information available.

Also to add to my previous post, parents who think that coaches ruin their kids arms and take away their college chances, you should know that it is estimated that less than 2% of any high school baseball players ever get a dollar to play college baseball (NCAA statistic). I find it hard to believe that as coaches we are responsible for 98% of the difference.

Most parents should enjoy their kids high school experience because in most cases it is their last experience with competitive baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachIU26:
With regards to the Streamwood pitcher, you can be critical but do you know his pitch counts? Maybe he threw 25 pitches on day 1 (which would have been a light bullpen for us) and 90 pitches yesterday. If so that wouldn't be all that terrible. While I don't know the situation, I give the benefit of the doubt to the coach with such little information available.

Coach, I believe they stated he threw two innings and then threw the next day. Yes, 25 pitches would be light the day before a start, but 25 pitches is pretty light to throw in two innings. You have to remember that they have to warm up in the pen and on the mound. Right there should put the pitcher up over 30, shouldn't it? And then you add those two innings of work.

Our #1 (soph) pitched seven innings last night, but he did it in an abnormal manner due to a rain delay. It kind of surprised me that he went back out to pitch the last four innings after about a 40 minute delay. That's two 7-innings starts in a row at least. He threw a lot of innings for us this year. Part of his success and being able to throw lots of innings is his training. Ice as soon as he is done pitching, light catch the next day, long toss the day after, and bullpen session the following day. When able, he would throw bullpen the next day as well if he wasn't throwing that day.

The big difference from the past to now is that when we were kids we play fast pitch everyday to give our arm a good workout.Now kids go home and play video games.We always seemed to find a wall to play fast pitch.Go past the parks now and all you see is a bunch of people kicking a ball around.I bet we would through 250 pitches in a week.Now a kid throughs 20 pitches and he is all wraped in ice.I am not saying you should not ice.I do think our kids would be alot better off if we as parents turn off the tv and the computer,Thats a good start to a good strong arm.

I think that today's pitchers don't throw enough.

CoachIU26.....

Nobody is condemning coaches, and don't use your reply as an excuse/reason. I have been on these boards for over 5 years, before the "crash", the website shutdown, and a few other events. Since we only have a few weeks left in this fine season, maybe it's time for me to say a few things that some people don't want to heart, bad and good.

Some coaches are under the illusion that they are the know-it-all-of baseball. Yes, some have played at various levels, high school to possibly the pros. But, when a coach tells the parents at the beginning of freshman year that they will teach our sons everything there is to know about baseball (we were also told that we didn't have to spend any money on private training, lessons, whatever, and that they could do other sports), what do you think those families did? Yep, you guessed it, they had those kids take lessons!!!! Why, because the parents didn't have dillusions-of-grandieur! They knew that if their son was to get better, play on the team, maybe even be a starter, that he needed to work at everything, strength, conditioning, mechanics, eating habits, everything.

Don't even ask me what he thought about kids who played travel ball. God forbide these kids should play more baseball, AND BE INVOLVED IN GAME SITUATIONS!!!!! Nope, they were going to teach them everything.

Whoops, I almost forgot a small factoid, POLITICS! I know a kid who can't even turn a double play and was all-conference. Must be a nice kid!

CoachIU26, I'm not writing this to 'blast' you or any coach, all we want as parents is honesty. Don't build a kids hopes up by telling him that if he limits his summer ball pitching, that he will have a good chance of pitching next season, only to ride the bench his senior year. He throws hard, is quite, has a great family, and is a good student who abides by all of the rules.
That's just plan wrong. The coach would have been more humane if would have 'cut' him at the beginning of the season. Yeah, I know you need a "taxi squad" for your starters.

As for college money, I totally agree with you, and have seen in recent years kids blowing great opportunities only to fall pray to drugs, alcohol and bad grades. Dedication and love of the game, sorry but some kids have been given false hope. Maybe that's why some coaches won't help their players get into a college program. Maybe it's bad karma, or something. I don't know the answer.

Yes, some parents expect way too much from coaches, especially the ones who want to be politically connected, yet some coaches don't really understands what it means for kids to play ball in college, or beyond. More communication is needed, between both parties, and parents can't expect the coaches to put every kid on their teams.

CoachIU26, if you are a coach, you have a tough job and I respect what you do. I may not always agree with things, but I respect what you do!

Boomer

Any solutions out there?

Way to go Boomer !!! I Love honesty!!

I am usually just a board observer, but I felt I had a little bit to offer to this topic.

In high school, I was the over used pitcher. I threw 80 innings my Jr year and 100 my Senior year. I ended up going to a lower level Division I college where you guessed it, I tore my labrum my Jr year. Do I think all the use in high school had a major impact on my injury? You bet. If I could do it all over again, would I do it the same way? You bet. When in high school, we had a legitimate shot to win a state title both years. In college at best I would have been a medicore to good pitcher had I not been injured. Had I been good, my school still would not have made an NCAA regional. So I have no regrets and do feel that I was done any injustice.

Now I am a high school coach, and I am just the opposite. I monitor my pitchers closely. I am probably more liberal than many of the coaches on the board. I allow maximum pitch counts just above 100 once the pitcher works up to it from 60 early in the season. My pitchers only throw once a week and have a very regimented shoulder/elbow program as well as throw long toss at least 3 times between starts and usually 2 or 3 pens depending on the pitcher.

I agree with eg12. Our pitchers today do not throw enough. They don't throw enough long toss and they don't do enough flat ground work.

A lot depends on the situation as well. If we are talking about a senior who isn't playing in college, is there any real harm there? It's a different story if he is going to college or has a shot at a pro career.

Welcome to the hsbaseballweb, Coach.

Looking forward to some substantive postings from you. Nice start.

BCRockets....

I understand your experience, and agree to it, whether it matters or not. Circumstances, baseball, was different twenty, thirty, forty years ago. When free agencies came about with Curt Flood, (yes I'm near retirement) things changed, you can also throw in Astro Turf, the DH, middle relievers, set-up men, closers, etc., etc. The game really changed.

We used to play ball with something that had white, medical tape, or the shinney black, electricians tape on it when we wore-off the original cover. We'd play until it was dark, usually around 8:45p.m. in the summer.

My point, yes, things are different and your experience happened to many other players like yourself. BUT, have we learned anything from those experiences?????? It seems you have!! Unfortunately when you get to the college level, and beyond, results matters more than the players involved! And, in many cases doesn't have to do with the coaches. It's the AD's, and the board-of-directors, and the boosters, etc, that need the victories.

Coach, I do understand what you may have to deal with, but there is a right way to handle it.

I've wondered about this subject for years and I can see both sides of the argument.

Growing up I just got used to seeing pitchers like Fergie Jenkins and Wilbur Wood throw complete games all the time. I don't remember pitch counts even being mentioned. I remember the three-inning relief stints by guys like Bruce Sutter.

With kids, however, it seems like there has to be some caution.

It's hard to deny that kids who throw too much often end up with arm injuries. I know in the summer it can become real dicey when kids are playing for club teams and summer league H.S. teams at the same time. Which team gets to have the kid pitch for them in a given week? Unfortunately, that kid sometimes throws for both teams.

I'm torn on the whole thing, but I know if it were my kid I wouldn't take any chances.

Another interesting angle is H.S. kids moving on to either play at college or getting drafted and going to the minor leagues. College coaches are often fighting for their jobs and may pitch a kid beyond what he should be pitching -- it's about wins and losses at that level. Minor league coaches, on the other hand, would be hung by upper management if they used a pitcher too much -- it's all about player development while college is more about instant and continuous results.

Everyone's bringing up well thought out ideas on this subject -- interesting stuff to be sure.

To save train fare, Mack only brought two pitchers. The starting pitcher was knocked out of the game in the first inning, leaving only knuckleballing relief pitcher Eddie Rommel. Rommel pitched 17 innings and gave up 33 hits, but won the game, 18-17.

Today the message boards would be filled with info saying can you believe this dumb coach left his pitcher in to give up 33 hits?? But nice win!